With so many people up in arms about the economy and its relation to art/hobbies, I thought now would be a great time to share ideas about budgeting, planning...etc.
Apr 29 09 09:16 pm Link
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US
Amazing. Just Amazing
Apr 29 09 09:19 pm Link
New York, New York, US
I. Love. You.
Shandra, you are as intelligent as you are beautiful.
Apr 29 09 09:21 pm Link
Big Bear Lake, California, US
You have given me hope
Apr 29 09 09:23 pm Link
D M M wrote:
Aw, thank you!
Apr 29 09 09:29 pm Link
Demonika Devour wrote:
Link everyone you know. I bet I could pull ten more solutions out of my ass.
Apr 29 09 09:30 pm Link
Dubai, Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Apr 29 09 09:32 pm Link
Ann Arbor, Michigan, US
The "Whatever your rates may be, I can't afford them" messages suck because you never asked - maybe my rate was 'take me out for Indian Food' or 'let me crash your sofa while I'm in town for a couple nights' or 'hey, can you teach me how to use your light equipment'.
The "The economy sucks so I can't pay you." messages suck, because it assumes that the person that they are talking to doesn't experience the effects too - we all do.
I remember reading about a guy who picked up every penny he saw on the street, and save it. Made quite a fair bit that way.
And I prefer to just hear an outright offer than ever quote so called rates. Even if I really don't need your legal services.
Another thing that you could put on your list, and I have been known to offer this:
Since some photographers network and suchish - I've offered to people that if they could help me find a couple other paid gigs in their area (at X rate), I'd shoot with them trade. Because the networking means I get to work with more people.
Apr 29 09 09:40 pm Link
OP, you should write a book. You and TX. And maybe PYPI.
Apr 29 09 09:51 pm Link
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, US
Once again, you sparkle Shandra! Raelyn added good points, too.
It's very easy to split my day rate up into 4 or 5 photographers in a studio. Lots of times the studios give you a deal when you book a full day.
If you know a model is traveling and you can't really afford their rates but you can afford *something*, ask to be a fill-in, or a replacement if someone cancels. (it irritates me when people do this and offer trade work, but if you can feed me and throw me some cash, some sewing supplies, an SD card... whatever, that would be a great deal) I hate when photographers cancel, and they often do last minute, and if someone can fill that slot with very short notice, I'm much more open to taking a lower rate.
One thing that peeves me is when a photographer replies to my quoted rates with "so-and-so will work with me for less/trade!!" If you know how much you can/are willing to pay a model, tell them that at the get go.
Apr 29 09 10:10 pm Link
Port Richey, Florida, US
+1 my hero lol
btw.. I've got "free drink" cards for Hammerheads in Holiday, FL lol
Apr 29 09 10:13 pm Link
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
OP, awesome post and so true.
Sacramento, California, US
I've been meaning to for years.
Apr 29 09 10:21 pm Link
Shandra Stark wrote:
TFE...Time for Editing
Apr 29 09 10:33 pm Link
West Palm Beach, Florida, US
Raelyn Monstrosity wrote:
I do this! Anytime I find a coin in the parking lot, or in my house or car, I put it in a jar. I don't ever buy anything with cash; I buy 99% of my stuff with debit cards, so very little of my coins were change from actual purchases.
Apr 30 09 03:51 am Link
Newport Beach, California, US
On point!!! Great job!
Apr 30 09 03:54 am Link
San Francisco, California, US
Great tips, this is what makes the MM forums worth all the other nonsense.
Apr 30 09 03:57 am Link
Portland, Oregon, US
I think you missed the most important tip: Learn How To Negotiate! There are plenty of books and workshops on this topic, but in general, we just aren't comfortable negotiating. We want to see that best price on the sticker, and we don't want to try to get a better price.
In fact, when I was starting out buying investment real estate, someone gave me a four page reader's digest article on negotiations. Just following those techniques must have saved me $100,000 in the past few years. Some key points:
Be reluctant: Wince at each offer you receive. Pause before responding. Don't accept the first offer.
Be prepared to walk away: If there isn't a point at which you'd walk away from a deal, you aren't negotiating; you are caving in. Know your limits.
Make counteroffers that leave you wiggle room: If the asking price is $100, and you want to pay $90, then don't offer $90 -- instead, offer $80 so that you can allow the other side to talk you up to $90.
He who names a price first is at a great disadvantage: So, get the other side to name a price first.
Be prepared to identify the problems with the offer/product/service: "Yes, I like that used car, but those tires look really old & worn". If you find a little fault, you might be able to talk the price down a bit.
There's a lot of other things that can be learned.
For myself, I consider myself to be fair & honest, so I don't try to squeeze the last penny out of a deal. I don't negotiate hard, but I've been known to get the price down. For example, I've gotten a discounted rate from traveling models by allowing her to stay in my guest room or by helping her find photographers (who may not be members of MM) or by letting photographers schedule time with her in my studio/home.
Apr 30 09 08:07 am Link
I've never had a problem being shot by more than one photographer in one shoot
for the same fee. After all, I still walk away with the same $$$.
Apr 30 09 08:15 am Link
Orlando, Florida, US
I found a great strategy where I advertise for models on CL & offer to pay rates I can't afford, then when they show up at the abandoned building I gave ad my address I steal them & lock them in my closet, shooting every few days until I use them up.
Great advice Shandra.
Apr 30 09 08:18 am Link
Lebanon, New Hampshire, US
I know some of this may seem obvious to some of us, but others need things spelled out to them.
I put right on my portfolio -
I generally accept paid work only, but if we would make a good team, let's not make money a barrier to working together. I'm open to all kinds of trade/alternative methods of pay. If you can't afford to pay in cash, what goods, services, skill can you offer in trade?
Apr 30 09 08:30 am Link
Northbrook, Illinois, US
I agree with everything said here Great thread!
Apr 30 09 08:31 am Link
Winchester, Virginia, US
CLT likes this post
Apr 30 09 08:34 am Link
New York, New York, US
Two thumbs up.
Apr 30 09 08:57 am Link
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
I'm not a model, but I have plans to travel at some stage and my plan was to whore out my skills to models and photographers for spare rooms, sight seeing tours, sandwiches and or couch space;)
Apr 30 09 09:20 am Link
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
6 - Get a Day job or look for a day job.
Sometimes we have to provide an income to support our hobby, or add income to supplement our hobby, or find a second job to support ourselves.
Just because someone wants to model dosen't mean they can drop everything else and feel they have a right to get paid for it. Same goes if someone wants to take pictures it doesn't mean we have to give them business. If someone tries to do either of those things and can't make it then it dosen't mean we have to feel sorry for them.
Apr 30 09 09:23 am Link
Oakland, California, US
Your the best Shandra....
This is a great post with a ton of relevant information.
Apr 30 09 09:25 am Link
Washington, District of Columbia, US
Now if only I could learn how to negotiate with photographers........
Apr 30 09 09:31 am Link
SLE Photography wrote:
Do you feed them? That costs money you know.
Apr 30 09 10:09 am Link
Andrew Thomas Designs wrote:
I deserve to get paid for my experience as a model.
Apr 30 09 11:38 am Link
Fotographia Fantastique wrote:
Apr 30 09 11:39 am Link
It takes a lot of time, and a lot of experience.
Apr 30 09 11:41 am Link
Mythical Ink wrote:
It's seriously the way to go. You'll have great success.
Apr 30 09 11:43 am Link
May 01 09 09:18 pm Link
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US
To all photographers out there: This is soooo true! And oddly fitting too, I was just thinking of putting on my profile "Will work for trade!"
Perhaps services too... lately I have been doing some model for massage (with certified therapists with a real office, of course). To me that is gold!
Maybe next will be model for doctor visits? Lol. I could use that!
May 01 09 09:27 pm Link
Geraldton, Western Australia, Australia
May 01 09 10:14 pm Link
7. Have a business plan that generates income from the images you produce. That is THE most effective way for everyone to get paid. If itâs a hobby, fine. But Business 101 says that you never part with cash unless you have a reasonable expectation of it making you money.
8. Seek models who will be business partners. That can mean splitting profits, it can mean implementing their ideas for making money, or it can mean having them generate other paying work. A model who is invested and interested in YOU making money is herself more likely to be worth working with.
May 01 09 10:35 pm Link
Chicago, Illinois, US
Wonderful post. I'm going to link to it in my profile, in the rates section.
May 01 09 11:23 pm Link
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, US
I know very VERY few pro models that will take you up on profit-splitting or other sort of "you'll get paid when WE get paid" sort of ventures, unless they are very very close to the photographer and believe in it. Those sorts of offers tend to find the response to be a "thank you, but no thank you".
May 01 09 11:28 pm Link