Racine, Wisconsin, US
I just want to add that this is an awesome thread. I never saw it before and I want to than Alisyn for having it linked in her profile.
Nov 04 10 01:09 pm Link
Denver, Colorado, US
Shandra Stark wrote:
I have not read this entire thread, but it makes me happy to see people working together to find solutions. This is lovely!!
Feb 01 11 01:00 pm Link
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US
The trading for space works for models as well. I host models, maus, photographers, designers, whatever! I also try to stock my house with food appropriate to their dietary needs and wants.
Feb 01 11 02:10 pm Link
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US
Not sure if this was mentioned... I have an arrangement with a couple photographers in my general area that allows us to build a really good working relationship without breaking the photographer's bank. I'll shoot with them on a semi-regular basis, say once a month or so, and I get less than my typical rate but I have a reliable future gig. Our shoots stay fairly short, which keeps me fresh, and I love seeing the way our work develops over time.
Feb 02 11 06:32 am Link
New York, New York, US
Model Affordability for Photographers has had a big financial impact on every level ! Especially in the Photography/Modeling industry and the economy here in the states as a whole!!!!
I am very flexible to the Model's hourly rate / half or full day rates concerns, because without them our,PHOTOGRAPHER'S,Creativity Valve would totally be shut-off... I am always willing to make every effort to work with a model, offering a workable rate or a barter exchange ( clothes,lingerie, flash drives, food, a place to stay for a few days...etc...
Yes, I also offer my models a stay at a "private " residence, which is totally vacant and used for the model's use only,when they are Traveling through my area in Northeast Pennsylvania!
I am now interested in trying to set up some Figure Workshops ( my first) for this upcoming 2011 Summer, so if you are Model traveling through to NYC, let me know... maybe we can schedule you in !
The Model Mayhem Community strives to reach out to all and as such I am really glad I became part of Model Mayhem !
Tx Rob from Blue J Productions
Feb 15 11 09:38 am Link
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom
Positive thread, with some good suggestions.
If I were a photographer looking to sell portfolios to models, though, I wouldn't be telling them how to go about finding ways to afford me. I'd be finding out what they really want, or what the market they are aiming for demands from them in terms of images. Then I would be focussing on developing my skills, my marketing, my overall image, so that I was better placed than my competitors to pick up what work there was.
It's hypothetical, because I don't have the ability or inclination to do that, but that's where I'd focus.
Feb 15 11 12:40 pm Link
Kaiserslautern, Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany
Shandra Stark wrote:
The only thing I do not do on your post is barter (I do not have anything). The rest are sage words indeed. All the best!
Feb 15 11 12:50 pm Link
Rancho Cucamonga, California, US
Mar 17 11 08:13 pm Link
New Orleans, Louisiana, US
I'm good with all that hoopla: transition, grammar, spelling (ok, I use spell check) and working on my masters in writing while full time modeling currently. We should write a book! Seriously. Publishing through an online source would help in this case for sure. Think of the number of hours that models spend on these forums.
Mar 25 11 07:04 pm Link
Waco, Texas, US
one thing I wanted to add to this information is a simple one...
Thrift shops, garage sales and pawn shops are your friends.
I have friends in almost every pawn shop in town and get the heads up when something interesting gets sold to one of them.
perfect example from the other day. I have been thinking of upgrading my lenses. One of my pawn contacts told me a photographer had just sold a box of equipment to the shop and he said I could come look before it hit the shelf. I ended up getting a $300 lens I had been looking at for $65 and several other items out of the box at a huge discount from the retail rates. This guy had taken incredible care of his gear. The only thing I did not buy out of the box was the camera body because I already have a comparable one.
One of my models found an entire collection of runway fashions in a travel case at a garage sale. The dresses were from a few years back, but they were cheap and in near new condition. The woman had put on a bit of weight and could no longer wear them. You never know where you will find a treasure.
One small caveat: Make sure you inspect what you buy before paying.
just my own two cents...take it as you will..
Mar 26 11 03:47 am Link
Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, Canada
Shandra Stark wrote:
YOU were MEANT TO BE an AGENT.
Mar 28 11 01:47 am Link
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Great thread. Finally someone puts what some of us have been thinking into words. A job well done.
Mar 28 11 01:57 am Link
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Mar 28 11 09:50 am Link
You flatter me so!! What an absolutely intriguing thought...
Apr 06 11 12:43 am Link
Waukesha, Wisconsin, US
Shandra Stark wrote:
i'd hire you!
Apr 20 11 08:28 am Link
Casa Grande, Arizona, US
I am all for the barter system - you never know what skills people might have - day jobs, hobbies, or that thing Uncle Jay taught them.
Apr 20 11 11:27 am Link
Bury Saint Edmunds, England, United Kingdom
This thread now stickied here - http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?threa … st14829304
May 07 11 03:12 pm Link
May 10 11 08:37 pm Link
- Phil H - wrote:
May 10 11 08:38 pm Link
Seattle, Washington, US
Absolutely wonderful thoughts here. Much of it I already do but the bartering is genius. Thanks.
May 11 11 05:42 am Link
Oakland Acres, Iowa, US
I think trade agreements are a great means of providing affordable shoot opportunties for both models and photographers.
I know many more expereinced models and photographer often rant about trade, but for newer or hobbyist models and photographer I think it offers a great way to enjoy the beneifits of shoots in an affordable manner. While many feel they are deserving of pay, the reality is many newer models and photographers are not yet to the point where people will pay for their (our) services, or at least not pay much. Trade allows us to learn, improve and build portfolios in a way that otherwise, just might not be affordable.
I did two trade shoots earlier this month with brand new models. They now each have better portfolios and experience working with an unknown photographer. I had the opporunity to experiment with some new stock photo concepts without breaking the bank on something which might not pan out. As it turns, out they probably are not income earning ideas, but shooting trade allowed me to learn that in a manner that is affordable.
In the early days of America, (and in other countries) unpaid internships, or apprenticeships were very common. It offered the intern a way to gain valuable skills and real life work experience affordably without having to pay for training and it allowed the provider some minimally skilled labor that he could compensate affordably with his time and knowledge instead of money. I think trade shoots offer many of the same advantages.
May 11 11 09:07 am Link
Daytona Beach, Florida, US
i absolutely love this place...so much information...i never knew how much knowledge people possess...it helps out in a big way...i have had my downfalls as well...with biz right now it is hard because when you have to shovel out thousands to treat family illnesses you learn to make the most of what you have got...i have found there are alot of good people here...thanks all i like to say words of wisdom to live by
May 16 11 10:11 am Link
Khowmeyn, MarkazÄ«, Iran
This is great. Bumping.
May 17 11 05:11 am Link
Delray Beach, Florida, US
Shandra Stark wrote:
May 17 11 05:16 am Link
Fur Elise wrote:
You're welcome! Thank YOU!
May 19 11 12:21 pm Link
bump before rapture wipes this thread out.
May 20 11 04:05 pm Link
Los Angeles, California, US
I love this thread, thank you Shandra!
May 20 11 04:07 pm Link
Sophie Nova wrote:
You're welcome, dear!
May 20 11 04:11 pm Link
May 23 11 01:11 pm Link
Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada
The Original Sin wrote:
Great thread, with marvelous ideas! It should be sent to all newbs (photogs and models alike), this would help them start out very well.
May 23 11 03:23 pm Link
May 31 11 10:58 am Link
Jun 04 11 07:38 am Link
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US
Iona Lynn wrote:
I'm curious. When mininum wage is about $8/hour, and "good" jobs are going for $10/hour... what makes an "uber cheep" [sic] model at $50/hour?
Jun 04 11 07:57 am Link
Forest Hills, New York, US
Peace, Furst... a talented artistic producer you are as well
Jun 04 11 04:21 pm Link
Los Angeles, California, US
ok for real i almost pee'd 1or 2 times reading this are you just so awesome hahahaaaa bowling ally
Aug 03 11 02:46 am Link
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Nov 02 11 01:17 pm Link
Saint Louis, Missouri, US
I think FAR too often in this industry models think they can demand rates without anything to back it up OR even if they have the chops to back it up they think that their job is just to show up, look pretty, then leave.
We as photographers have to set up the shoot, edit the photos, market the work, etc. and we are only paid when the work is done. I think models should be paid the same we are and additionally should be responsible for even amounts of work.
I have had some models who are stellar with this and I keep working with them, the models who aren't I don't work with anymore.
We pay a very generous profit share and bonuses on all our work, most specifically the book series which is nationally published by a publisher out of Chicago. We pay this way NOT because we cannot afford rates but because its fair to everyone. The split is based on the number of photos they get in the book. They also have bonus opportunities if they directly sell the books etc. This way they take an interest in the success of the work, they work for me ongoing, and everyone is fairly compensated.
I am sorry but unless you are shooting for magazines like playboy, hustler, etc. that already have the marketing and all that or if you are a supermodel then you should not be so demanding. This doesn't mean do tfp/cd as that's for portfolio building. However when models turn down LEGITIMATE back end payed work they are just lazy/think too highly of themselves.
Nov 18 11 10:01 am Link
New York, New York, US
Kaos Eight wrote:
This is your first post.
Nov 18 11 10:33 am Link
Saint Louis, Missouri, US
This of course may be true but I wasn't talking about her specifically I was talking about models on this site and omp in general! I would say that generally speaking 80 percent or more of the models here don't deserve to DEMAND payment up front. Most of them should be happy with QUALITY REAL work. Just because someone pays your overblown rates doesn't a professional shoot/good situation make. Additionally if the pay is PROFIT SHARE of a nationally published book not only is it more generous but its just as quality. I had one such unprofessional/mega-ego models today suggest profit share was "TFP". No TFP is just that time for print, there is no money at all. Additionally profit share in the case of: "well I am going to try to sell the photos and if I make anything i will split it with you" is much different than an iron clad contract relating to profit sharing on a nationally published book series that also includes a bonus structure.
Nov 18 11 03:31 pm Link
Elmhurst, Illinois, US
I read all 6 pages of this thread and find that everything I am doing is in line, but there were so many more things I could be doing that I just know this is going to be a GREAT year if I use those ideas.
Personally, I shoot film, in large format, from 4x5up to 11x14, as well as underwater 35mm. The 11x14 is about $8 a sheet now, so I don't shoot 300 images at a shoot. Underwater I will. But, it is irrelevant what costs I had in making the image, it is how good is the image, in the end.
As to being a business, I am lucky that I have a great paying day job (at the moment), so I can afford to treat this as a hobby, though I have profit making motives. I want to make a book, sell in a gallery. Now if I could just realize those goals.
As for the model rates, I believe in paying up front, something that is reasonable for the market, will get me the quality I am looking for, and fair to everyone. I have worked with Model Sarah (she's great) and I am here to say for the record that experience does count, and you can judge experience from the portfolio.
As to the actual amount to pay, well in Chicago I can get a nude model for $50/hr any day of the week, but I find it is better to either 1) pay more to get a someone with a proven track record; or 2) start with a newbie, work regularly, develop together both skills and a working relationship. I am a little bit dyslexic, don't speak well, and having someone that knows my working style helps when I can't find the words. Thanks to bettybathorie, love working with you. Once the newbie is no longer a newbie I up their rate, regardless of what they charge others.
I try to think of it as net cost per finished image. If I only get 2 "winners" for $100 for a 2 hour shoot with a newbie, or get 10 winners for 2 hours @ $100/hr ($200) with someone more experienced, and either way I burn through $100 for the studio, $50 for my assistant, $200 for sheet film and processing, then my cost per image is close to $250 an image with the newbie and under $60 an image with the pro. You do the math. Since I like to work on series I do work with newbies, shoot less film each shoot, work without a studio, and also I think it helps them develop, and that is its own reward for me. The Pros I hire for things were I feel I have only one shot at it. I really don't care to work with models that are traveling, and only come to Chicago once every three years, but models like Sarah are always welcome. I need a working relationship for most of my conceptual art.
I know this is rather long, and may be a little off topic, although it all relates to my photographer point of view on model compensation. I want the model to be paid fairly right up front, so she isn't screwed if I screw up my film in the soup. If we can work out a trade of some sort, clothes, even equipment, whatever she wants, as long as we can complete the transaction the day of the shoot I will do it.
I little off topic, hopefully someone on MM (an OP) will see this: One of the models local that I have worked with frequently suggested we together stage an underwater workshop (she owns an indoor pool), like a meet and greet from the models point of view, and an education from the students (photographers). In essence, the photographers pay us to use her pool, we pay the MUA for the day, and models (maybe for 2 hours, but they stay all day), the models are available to, well, model, everyone use my camerass and strobes and the models get resulting images and new contacts. We even provide wardrobe, so you could have nude and non-nude U/W images if you like. When I proposed this as a casting call last year I was chastized, told it was improper to post that there, since I would be making money (I might net $100 for me, same for the pool owner, after all the expenses). This arrangement seems in line with some of the suggestions within this thread, so what do you all think? Is charging each student $X for a day's training, providing a venue for the shoot and for a meet and greet, catering, all the equipment, etc provided, the organizers making a few bucks, a type of thing not to post in a casting call? Then where?
Thanks to all the commenters before me, this was a great read!
Jan 07 12 12:48 pm Link