Forums > Photography Talk > Whats you're definition of a TF shoot?

Photographer

Margaret Hope

Posts: 840

Seattle, Washington, US

I don't think I have a happy model. I refuse to give her all the photos taken at the scheduled TF shoot... I gave her 8 edited photos!... She tells me all the photographers she has worked with have given her edited and unedited photos.

This is what I told her:

I'm sorry if I didn't tell you I wasn't going to send you untouched photos. I automatically assumed that you understood what TF shoot meant but I suppose other photographers have different definitions of a TF shoot.

My definition of a TF shoot is where a proffessional/amateur photographer and a proffessional/amateur model mutually agree to help each other build their portfolios. The TF shoot is also a great way for photographers to test lighting, new concepts etc. In exchange the model can receive a few photos for his/her time.

http://www.modelingadvice.com/testshoots.html

As a model I have only done TF shoots with photographers and over half of the photographers I have worked with have not even given me a single photo. Oh well TF is also a great way to build up credits, meet photographers and gain references.

The model release form does not state that you will receive all photos: edited and/or unedited. Which I have attached a copy of the release form that you signed.

"I hereby waive any right that I may have to inspect and approve the finished product or copy that may be used in connection with an image that the photographer has taken of the model, or the use of which it may be applied."

I'm very sorry that I did not make clear what my definition of a TF shoot. It was great working with you.

So... what is your definition of a TF shoot?

Jul 26 09 11:49 pm Link

Photographer

Nicely Disturbed

Posts: 1765

New York, New York, US

TF in my understanding is what both parties agree upon as payment, other than money.
TFP=Time For an agreed upon amount of prints as payment for the model's time.

TFCD= exchange of TIME for a Cdrom of an agreed upon amount of photos on a cdrom, as payment for the model's time.

TF is Trade/time For,( fill in the blank)

Jul 26 09 11:54 pm Link

Photographer

Jeffs Photography

Posts: 3608

Dakota, Minnesota, US

Margaret Hope wrote:
In exchange the model can receive a few photos for his/her time.

How many is "a few"?  You both screwed up by not stating a number up front.

Jul 26 09 11:56 pm Link

Photographer

Margaret Hope

Posts: 840

Seattle, Washington, US

Enrapture Photography wrote:

How many is "a few"?  You both screwed up by not stating a number up front.

Well I feel stupid. I didn't realize you have to agree on an actual number of photos up front.

Jul 26 09 11:59 pm Link

Photographer

SteveL Images

Posts: 1966

Pacifica, California, US

A TF shoot is one in which no money changes hands.

EVERYTHING ELSE is negotiable and should be stated ahead of time: what kind of release will be signed, what kind of usage agreement will be signed, what the model will get and when. Some photogs give an unedited CD at the time of the shoot. Others pick one or two great images and Photoshop the hell out of them and deliver them six months later.

Most people do something in between. I used to give a lot of proofs, now I'm realizing I'm better off delivering the top 20 or so. That's still a lot but models love to see what they've done and the shots the models like are always different than the shots the photogs choose. Since it's a TF, she's in effect paying you for photographic services (with her modeling time.) So you have an obligation to deliver something she likes.

But there are no hard and fast rules of what she gets and what kind of release she signs. The only thing that makes it a TF is that no money changes hands.

Jul 27 09 12:00 am Link

Photographer

Jeffs Photography

Posts: 3608

Dakota, Minnesota, US

Margaret Hope wrote:
Well I feel stupid. I didn't realize you have to agree on an actual number of photos up front.

You don't "have to", but it would eliminate the situation you are in.  If it was for pay you would want to know how much to charge/pay a model.

Jul 27 09 12:01 am Link

Photographer

Margaret Hope

Posts: 840

Seattle, Washington, US

Enrapture Photography wrote:

If it was for pay you would want to know how much to charge/pay a model.

Very true.

Jul 27 09 12:02 am Link

Photographer

Dannielle Levan

Posts: 12857

New Westminster, British Columbia, Canada

Just tell her you don't give out unedited pics.  End of story.  Sounds like a princess who is used to getting whatever she whines for.

Jul 27 09 12:20 am Link

Photographer

Margaret Hope

Posts: 840

Seattle, Washington, US

Dannielle Levan wrote:
Just tell her you don't give out unedited pics.  End of story.  Sounds like a princess who is used to getting whatever she whines for.

Already ahead of you chief.

Jul 27 09 12:34 am Link

Photographer

Living Canvas

Posts: 2039

Denver, Colorado, US

Well, one problem seems to me to be this:

Models consider their time on a shoot to be equivalent to our time as photographers.

Yes! - IF you hand me a perfect model, with a wonderful MUA, so that I don't have to spend forever retouching. Once the model goes home our work is not yet done.

I *TRY* to release as many shots as I can. However if a model expects 50+ 100+ images... dear god I better have a lot of free time to retouch them all. Why would they want to have unedited images?

Either way it doesn't hurt to give them a ball park figure or even a precise number of images they will receive.

I'd simply explain it to her. Just because one photographer will hand out unedited raw files, doesn't mean we all will. She needs to understand this.

Jul 27 09 12:39 am Link

Photographer

Kevin Connery

Posts: 16931

El Segundo, California, US

Margaret Hope wrote:
I automatically assumed that you understood what TF shoot meant but I suppose other photographers have different definitions of a TF shoot.

Absolutely.

Margaret Hope wrote:
So... what is your definition of a TF shoot?

My definition is what I've communicated explicitly to the model before the shoot.

That includes who's responsible for what parts of the shoot--makeup, clothing, etc, what is going to be delivered, when, and how, etc. It's all in a standard template that I adjust for each shoot.

My standard approach is to show proofs online, and let the model select 1 or 2 images for each 'look' from those proofs. For certain conceptual shoots, I don't show proofs, and only deliver finished images. In all cases, though, I put it in "writing"--printed letter, email, or an online page--long before the day of the shoot.

Jul 27 09 12:49 am Link

Photographer

JanineWhite Photography

Posts: 67

Townsville, Queensland, Australia

My definition of a TF shoot is whatever happens to be agreed to before hand.

I only do TFP agreements not TFCD and I am up front with my terms as soon as a model enquires about a TFP shoot.
I always tell the model how many edited web sized watermarked images to expect from the shoot. From these web images she/he can pick the agreed upon number of images to be printed at the agreed upon print size. I also require a signed model release form which also has these terms in writing so no-one can say "but I didn't know that or I didn't agree to that!"

Whatever you decide to do as your TF agreement I would suggest that all parties involved are aware of them and the terms well before the shoot date.

Jul 27 09 02:13 am Link

Photographer

B R U N E S C I

Posts: 25319

Bath, England, United Kingdom

Whatever you agree beforehand.

Personally I give three retouched images per shoot as minimum (more if I like and can be bothered to retouch more) and models agree to this in advance or they don't test with me.

I do also offer a CD of low-res, watermarked proofs of the whole shoot if they want one - many of the better models don't. However, maybe offering your model such a CD (on condition that she doesn't post the unretouched proofs anywhere online) might be a compromise for you at this point?

Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Jul 27 09 02:14 am Link

Photographer

Margaret Hope

Posts: 840

Seattle, Washington, US

For some reason I feel like I'm in retail.

Jul 27 09 02:20 am Link

Photographer

BlackWatch

Posts: 3825

Cleveland, Ohio, US

Stefano Brunesci wrote:
Whatever you agree beforehand.

+1

Jul 27 09 02:34 am Link

Photographer

GM Photography

Posts: 6102

Olympia, Washington, US

Everyone's definition is different.  Make sure you explain what yours is (in writing) before the shoot. 

I let the model choose 5 shots for retouching and they get copies of any images I choose to retouch also (both full size for prints and web size).

I send a detailed e-mail as soon as a shoot is scheduled that explains how many images, how long it will take to get them, what they can and can't do with them, etc. along with a copy of my modeling agreement.

You know what they say about what happens when you ass-u-me anything...

Jul 27 09 05:54 am Link

Photographer

Abbitt Photography

Posts: 11730

Oakland Acres, Iowa, US

I think few photographers give out all unedited images. 

I usually give 12-20.

Be sure to talk about all details prior to the shoot - number of images delivery time frame, release, usage rights, nature of the shoot, any pay, etc.

Jul 27 09 05:56 am Link

Photographer

Saxon Alvarez

Posts: 469

San Antonio, Texas, US

Enrapture Photography wrote:

How many is "a few"?  You both screwed up by not stating a number up front.

+1

MY definition is a mutually beneficial shoot with Evertything stated Up Front in Writing (Typ. including about 5-8 high-res images for the model on with some web copies.)

smile

Jul 27 09 10:23 am Link

Photographer

Joe Alca Photography

Posts: 755

Aurora, Colorado, US

Stefano Brunesci wrote:
Whatever you agree beforehand.

Personally I give three retouched images per shoot as minimum (more if I like and can be bothered to retouch more) and models agree to this in advance or they don't test with me.

I do also offer a CD of low-res, watermarked proofs of the whole shoot if they want one - many of the better models don't. However, maybe offering your model such a CD (on condition that she doesn't post the unretouched proofs anywhere online) might be a compromise for you at this point?

Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

i do exacly the same thing
and they sign a form  saying that i have full rights to the images

Jul 27 09 10:31 am Link

Photographer

ejs2011 Photography

Posts: 20

Charleston, South Carolina, US

Russ T wrote:
TF in my understanding is what both parties agree upon as payment, other than money.
TFP=Time For an agreed upon amount of prints as payment for the model's time.

TFCD= exchange of TIME for a Cdrom of an agreed upon amount of photos on a cdrom, as payment for the model's time.

TF is Trade/time For,( fill in the blank)

I totally agree..

Jul 27 09 12:34 pm Link

Photographer

Andrew Thomas Evans

Posts: 24078

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

I just give out like 5 or so images, 10 max.

If they complain I don't reply.

Jul 27 09 12:43 pm Link

Photographer

Mickle Design Werks

Posts: 5949

Washington, District of Columbia, US

This is why I try to avoid using the term TF*, TFP or TFCD.

I try to use the more ambiguous term "trade" or "test" because neither imply that there is an expected product at the end of the transaction.  Also if you think about it, this is actually a more accurate way of describing the deal (trading of each others time) rather than the comodification represents in TFP.TFCD or TC* definition.

It's a frustration for me that some Models and Stylist don't recognize the contributions of the Photographer during the shoot.  Constantly we here about Models who don't get images complaining about shooting for nothing after doing a trade shoot.  Excuse me wasn't the Photographer there as well? Somebody had to take the picture and how that is done takes both skill and talent. That no matter, it's all about the images, no matter how good to bad the Modeling was for the shoot.

To the OP, don't apologize and don't back down. Next time be clear about what you offer. Consider something like my Statement of Work document (linked in my profile) that gives everyone that wants to work with you a chance to know your working style and expectations. Something like that (even if it's a boilerplate message that you copy and paste) will give consistency and allow you to reference it so that your policies and procedures are clear and transparent BEFORE the Model agrees to shoot, thus less chance for this kind of post-shoot drama.

Jul 27 09 12:54 pm Link

Wardrobe Stylist

Knockout Clothing

Posts: 56

Dallas, Texas, US

Huh? When I do styling I never see more than 15 of the best images per look from the shoot, but typically around 3-5. That goes for tf as well as paid. Seems like a win/win situation to me as it ensures only the best pics are put out there - which is in everyone's best interest.

I would just explain it in a way *she* can relate to. Speak to her vanity; tell her you only release the prettiest pics as unflattering ones just make *her* look bad : P.

Jul 27 09 01:06 pm Link

Photographer

Antonio Marcus

Posts: 1849

San Francisco, California, US

I do not use the terms TFP or TFCD, but here is a good page about it.

http://www.newmodels.com/TFP.html

In general, when I do work with someone it is somewhat of a collaboration. We agree on a concept that we both need/want... and we create the images we both need/want. I do show all the images to the model/MUA/stylist via a web gallery. From there they choose what they like, then I choose what I will retouch (if I have time). This all depends on the project, though. If they are simple clean shots with not any retouching (which is most of the time for me)... I just go ahead and give all the images. Sometimes people don't want a CD and rather the just see the web gallery. Sometimes it's the other way around. All images are just for the models reference... any pictures used in portfolio need to be retouched/approved first. They don't always do this, and sometimes the model retouches from the low rez images (yikes). But oh well... it's the internet... and I just care about what's in my portfolio and not theirs. haha.

Here are the things I negotiate:

1) shoot length
2) who provides location?
3) who provides makeup/hair/wardrobe?
4) All images on cd? web?
5) number of retouched images
6) final image delivery time (2 years.haha.)

Jul 27 09 01:31 pm Link

Photographer

Margaret Hope

Posts: 840

Seattle, Washington, US

Living Canvas wrote:
Well, one problem seems to me to be this:

Models consider their time on a shoot to be equivalent to our time as photographers.

Mhmmm.

Jul 27 09 03:15 pm Link

Photographer

MarcP-Photog

Posts: 52

Portland, Oregon, US

The best thing to do is to state what you plan, that eliminates confusion, especially with new models. I always layout what I expect and then negotiate from there. I start by providing this link, which gives them what to expect in a TFP shoot and what to expect after. http://m-photog.com/?page_id=55

Jul 27 09 03:29 pm Link

Photographer

Margaret Hope

Posts: 840

Seattle, Washington, US

MarcP-Photog wrote:
I start by providing this link, which gives them what to expect in a TFP shoot and what to expect after. http://m-photog.com/?page_id=55

Ooo thats cool!

Jul 27 09 04:09 pm Link

Photographer

Antonio Marcus

Posts: 1849

San Francisco, California, US

MarcP-Photog wrote:
The best thing to do is to state what you plan, that eliminates confusion, especially with new models. I always layout what I expect and then negotiate from there. I start by providing this link, which gives them what to expect in a TFP shoot and what to expect after. http://m-photog.com/?page_id=55

Excellent outline. Your model release looks like a full release that would include commercial use?

I like the idea of doing headshots first. I used to do this as well when working with new models or models I've never worked with before. It sets the groove for the rest of the looks, and headshots benefit both parties (especially if the model is an actor too, and it also helps the photographer's portrait portfolio).

Jul 27 09 04:17 pm Link

Photographer

Aram O Photography

Posts: 1401

Boston, Massachusetts, US

personally - I will shoot, then give unedited...

they tell me a few, 4-7 they like, i will work on them.

Jul 27 09 04:21 pm Link

Photographer

PBK Photography

Posts: 1109

Dallas, Texas, US

Margaret Hope wrote:
For some reason I feel like I'm in retail.

No, I still think retail is worse. Did that for 25 years!

Jul 27 09 07:51 pm Link

Photographer

Isaiah Brink

Posts: 2118

Charlotte, North Carolina, US

Margaret Hope wrote:
I don't think I have a happy model. I refuse to give her all the photos taken at the scheduled TF shoot... I gave her 8 edited photos!... She tells me all the photographers she has worked with have given her edited and unedited photos.

This is what I told her:


So... what is your definition of a TF shoot?

I think that what she's getting at is what she is used too in the past.  I say in your case, stick to your guns, I give out more than 8 images, but no unedited images, but that's me.  You covered your end of the deal with the release form, and if she had any questions about what she would be receiving, she should have asked prior to signing anything, or before the shoot, depending on when you have the models sign your release form.

Jul 27 09 08:13 pm Link

Photographer

Eric Jackson

Posts: 1290

Dayton, Ohio, US

Why would they want to have unedited images?

So they can hack and chop 'em up into taco meat!

Jul 27 09 08:17 pm Link

Photographer

Eric Jackson

Posts: 1290

Dayton, Ohio, US

Living Canvas wrote:
Well, one problem seems to me to be this:

Models consider their time on a shoot to be equivalent to our time as photographers.

Yes! - IF you hand me a perfect model, with a wonderful MUA, so that I don't have to spend forever retouching. Once the model goes home our work is not yet done.

I *TRY* to release as many shots as I can. However if a model expects 50+ 100+ images... dear god I better have a lot of free time to retouch them all. Why would they want to have unedited images?

Either way it doesn't hurt to give them a ball park figure or even a precise number of images they will receive.


I shoot film...I give  a TF shoot at least 10 edited images from each roll.

I'd simply explain it to her. Just because one photographer will hand out unedited raw files, doesn't mean we all will. She needs to understand this.

Jul 27 09 08:18 pm Link

Photographer

BTHPhoto

Posts: 6817

Fairbanks, Alaska, US

My definition of a TF* shoot is this:  any two consenting adults may enter into any legal agreement they both find acceptable and it's no business of any third party.

My definition of a sucker is this:  any consenting adult who enters into an agreement without putting the terms and expectations of both parties in writing prior to executing the agreement.

Jul 27 09 08:21 pm Link

Photographer

C h a r l e s D

Posts: 9304

Los Angeles, California, US

(op)

...and why, oh why, wasn't this discussed before the shoot?  Why didn't you tell her what she'd be getting beforehand? 

Why? 

Why didn't she ask?
You afraid if you go over the terms, she'll cancel or flake on you?  Why?

Jul 27 09 08:23 pm Link

Photographer

J T Smith

Posts: 1489

Pittsfield, Illinois, US

I am sick and tired of 101 photographs are us.

Photographers and models this is about a look.

I do get fed up with minimizing the value of what this is about when people think in numbers.

Just because Dick gave Jane 1,000 unedited images on a cd doesn't mean the industry works this way.

Get the agreement communicated up front before you work together. Stop assuming.

Jul 27 09 08:24 pm Link

Photographer

Michael Brooks

Posts: 97

Nashville, Tennessee, US

for me, tf=we shoot, model signs release, i pick the images to edit, no full cd, prints cost extra.

i set the expectation at 3-5 edited images per outfit, better models can get 10-20.

digital contact sheets can be a good compromise for those models that really want a copy of all of the images...or you can post them online in a protected gallery for a certain period of time...

Jul 27 09 08:24 pm Link

Photographer

Margaret Hope

Posts: 840

Seattle, Washington, US

Ultra Magnus wrote:
(op)

...and why, oh why, wasn't this discussed before the shoot?  Why didn't you tell her what she'd be getting beforehand? 

Why? 

Why didn't she ask?
You afraid if you go over the terms, she'll cancel or flake on you?  Why?

I talked to her over the phone discussing every single detail of the photo shoot: location, time, what type of shoot, how long it would take me to edit the photos, whether she prefered I email or mail the photos etc.

I didn't purposely leave out how many photos I was going to give her simply because I assumed that almost all photographers only give out a few shots when doing a test shoot.

From time to time I model and never discuss how many photos I will get at the end of the shoot.

Jul 28 09 03:42 am Link

Photographer

Margaret Hope

Posts: 840

Seattle, Washington, US

PBK Photography wrote:

No, I still think retail is worse. Did that for 25 years!

Whoa!!! And you're still alive? Wow... I just got out of retail after being in it for 3 years. I barely made it out alive.

Jul 28 09 03:46 am Link

Photographer

Margaret Hope

Posts: 840

Seattle, Washington, US

jtsmith wrote:
Get the agreement communicated up front before you work together. Stop assuming.

*Note to self* Spell every single detail out to model. Never assume! wink Got it!

Jul 28 09 03:51 am Link