Forums > General Industry > European models and Nudity

Photographer

Shiva Photo

Posts: 1946

East Hills, New York, US

I recently did a shoot with a european model who willingly wanted to pose nude, though that was not what I had planned.

It was apparent to me from my conversations that in many of the european countries, in particular nordic countries, that nudity is pretty open in the society and Playboy like magazines are not enclosed in plastic covers and tucked away in a high location in book stores.

So guys, if you are looking to shoot nudes, catch hold of the numerous traveling european models. they are very comfortable with nudity and posing nude.

Dec 12 10 08:35 am Link

Photographer

SBF Fotos

Posts: 135

Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands

That's a pretty broad generalization.  Yes, Playboy isn't considered "bad" here like it in the US.  I can walk into the grocery store and flip through it, and full nudity on the covers of magazines is fine, and not hidden in stores here like in the US.  However, there are plenty of models here who have no desire to do nudes.

Dec 12 10 08:56 am Link

Photographer

Wysiwyg Photography

Posts: 6326

Salt Lake City, Utah, US

Shiva Photo wrote:
So guys, if you are looking to shoot nudes, catch hold of the numerous traveling european models. they are very comfortable with nudity and posing nude.

I would love to, except a ticket ANYWHERE from outside the to Utah, is pretty expensive and I already have a list of models as long as my arm willing to travel and work with me for a plane ticket.

Now, IF, the model was ALREADY in the USA and wanted a plane ticket from the state they are in to where I am at, I would be happy to work with them (I have worked with a few models from other countries that way) smile

Dec 12 10 09:03 am Link

Photographer

Steveba

Posts: 912

London, England, United Kingdom

Shiva Photo wrote:
I recently did a shoot with a european model who willingly wanted to pose nude, though that was not what I had planned.

It was apparent to me from my conversations that in many of the european countries, in particular nordic countries, that nudity is pretty open in the society and Playboy like magazines are not enclosed in plastic covers and tucked away in a high location in book stores.

Its pretty much like that in the UK, with the exception of the odd prude.

Dec 12 10 09:05 am Link

Photographer

Ken Marcus Studios

Posts: 8493

Los Angeles, California, US

If you are in the United States . . .

Be aware that unless a 'traveling model' has a US issued work permit, that it's illegal for you to hire her.


The Homeland Security regulations are very clear about this.

Also, the 2257 regulations require that she have a US issued picture ID as well.

KM

Dec 12 10 09:12 am Link

Photographer

R A V E N D R I V E

Posts: 15867

New York, New York, US

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
Be aware that unless a 'traveling model' has a US issued work permit, that it's illegal for you to hire her.

ways around this.

basically any services cause unpaid debts to a subsidiary entity in a nonUS jurisdiction. further remittance paid in a debt settlement agreement paid some other time... like through paypal.

but I've never heard of anyone doing that with models or even with the latinos from the southern border.

but this is how everyone (corporations) get around most regulations

Dec 12 10 09:17 am Link

Photographer

Shiva Photo

Posts: 1946

East Hills, New York, US

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
If you are in the United States . . .

Be aware that unless a 'traveling model' has a US issued work permit, that it's illegal for you to hire her.


The Homeland Security regulations are very clear about this.

Also, the 2257 regulations require that she have a US issued picture ID as well.

KM

I think thats like an employer employee relationship. If she is an independent " contractor" aka freelance, i dont need to check her papers.

Dec 12 10 10:13 am Link

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Model

Anna Adrielle

Posts: 18763

Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium

it might be more normal here, but I think that is a generalization.
I can assure you that we have the same problems and complaints regarding modelling as you do smile

Dec 12 10 10:17 am Link

Photographer

Ken Marcus Studios

Posts: 8493

Los Angeles, California, US

Shiva Photo wrote:

I think thats like an employer employee relationship. If she is an independent " contractor" aka freelance, i dont need to check her papers.

WRONG !!

You can spend 5 years in federal prison for each and every mistake in your 2257 record keeping. You must have copies and electronic scans of a models legal, government issued picture ID.

Without a work permit, you are not able to do any kind of business arrangement with an alien under any circumstances. You cannot hire them, sell them a car, or buy their house.

Dec 12 10 10:20 am Link

Photographer

nyk fury

Posts: 2918

Port Townsend, Washington, US

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
WRONG !!

You can spend 5 years in federal prison for each and every mistake in your 2257 record keeping. You must have copies and electronic scans of a models legal, government issued picture ID.

Without a work permit, you are not able to do any kind of business arrangement with an alien under any circumstances. You cannot hire them, sell them a car, or buy their house.

ken, that just makes me want to break the fucking law.

Dec 12 10 10:24 am Link

Photographer

Photography by Mick

Posts: 197

Orlando, Florida, US

SBF Fotos wrote:
That's a pretty broad generalization.  Yes, Playboy isn't considered "bad" here like it in the US.  I can walk into the grocery store and flip through it, and full nudity on the covers of magazines is fine, and not hidden in stores here like in the US.  However, there are plenty of models here who have no desire to do nudes.

I have to fully agree with that statement.

Being English, but living in USA, let me just add my $0.02 worth. I do not find it any more difficult to shoot nudes in USA to the UK. Being someone who prefer to shoot outside, here in Florida, I actually find it easier to find models to pose for me than in Europe.

Dec 12 10 10:28 am Link

Photographer

Shiva Photo

Posts: 1946

East Hills, New York, US

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
Without a work permit, you are not able to do any kind of business arrangement with an alien under any circumstances. You cannot hire them, sell them a car, or buy their house.

Indeed if thats the case, MM should add a cautionary note to all  casting calls, that hiring a traveling overseas model has perils and risks of fines and jail time.Please verify work authorization.

Unwittingly MM may be aiding and abetting a alien without a work permit by allowing them (models) to post their "availibility" services.

What happens to the Model (w/o work permit) can she be detained by INS and deported? never to enter the US again?

Dec 12 10 10:34 am Link

Photographer

Aryx

Posts: 497

Stockton, California, US

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:

WRONG !!

You can spend 5 years in federal prison for each and every mistake in your 2257 record keeping. You must have copies and electronic scans of a models legal, government issued picture ID.

Without a work permit, you are not able to do any kind of business arrangement with an alien under any circumstances. You cannot hire them, sell them a car, or buy their house.

What one is supposed to do, and what one actually does are two different things.
There's too much under-the-table work, especially in this field, to get all worked up over. If you've ever paid one of your models in cash and only had them sign a model release instead of a full-length contract, then you're just as guilty of performing under-the-table work as the rest of us.
And 2257 record-keeping doesn't pertain to all forms of nudity.
And I highly doubt the federal government is interested in some photographer shooting nude pictures of a European model who doesn't have a work permit.

Dec 12 10 10:35 am Link

Photographer

DANACOLE

Posts: 10164

Oslo, Oslo, Norway

well..having lived in the U.S. for 27 yrs of my life and now livng here in Norway...I can compare my experience on living in both places...
I will say yes..there is definately more of a relaxed atmosphere here concerning nudity and sexuality...In the magazines,on tv, and so forth..

I will also say I noticed the models(that I have worked with in europe) are much more comfortable and relaxed with being nude...I don't really shoot nude, but Im speaking more on terms of between wardrobe changes... more models here in europe stripped down right in front of the crew to change bareing it all with no embarassment or shyness...while models I shot back in Texas and a few other states would go to the bathroom to change....'

Also...to the OP on the nude magazines not having plastic covers....yes...they do...atleast here in Norway and Sweden and a few other European countries I've visited....most have plastic covers....maybe 1 or 2 don't but the rest do...

Dec 12 10 10:44 am Link

Photographer

Ken Marcus Studios

Posts: 8493

Los Angeles, California, US

nyk fury wrote:

ken, that just makes me want to break the fucking law.

Say hi to Bubba for me . . . .

Dec 12 10 10:46 am Link

Photographer

Vector One Photography

Posts: 2778

Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US

You say this like it's news. They have always been more accepting of nudity and sexuality and we have always been uptight and anal about it.  They being Europeans and we being Americans.  I've often thought of moving there to shoot.  Between the greater acceptance and the locations that have been there for hundreds of years it would be, on the surface, a photographer's dream.  Just one problem...money.  Between the exchange rate, cost of living and maybe an inability to get work......I'm too chicken to try.

Dec 12 10 11:42 am Link

Photographer

R A V E N D R I V E

Posts: 15867

New York, New York, US

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
You can spend 5 years in federal prison for each and every mistake in your 2257 record keeping. You must have copies and electronic scans of a models legal, government issued picture ID.

Yeah, the federal cases rarely work like this. That kind of law are what I call sentence lengtheners (when charged w/ something else) or fallbacks when you take a plea (instead of 20 years for tax evasion, you'll take a plea for 5 years of not checking an immigrant's ID or some similar BS).

Granted I am not saying you should be ignorant of these laws, the wording and possible if's - and lack of case law - are worth raising an eyebrow over. But you should be aware of how they are applied, it won't be that liberally.

Dec 12 10 12:01 pm Link

Model

Eostre Renewed

Posts: 1145

Bremerton, Washington, US

Shiva Photo wrote:
I recently did a shoot with a european model who willingly wanted to pose nude, though that was not what I had planned.

It was apparent to me from my conversations that in many of the european countries, in particular nordic countries, that nudity is pretty open in the society and Playboy like magazines are not enclosed in plastic covers and tucked away in a high location in book stores.

So guys, if you are looking to shoot nudes, catch hold of the numerous traveling european models. they are very comfortable with nudity and posing nude.

Yes. there are 5 billboards in my immediate area of Pescara that feature female topless nudity (for a gym, for shoes, etc). It's not a big deal here in Italy (and in Europe in general I believe).

Dec 12 10 12:05 pm Link

Photographer

Moon Pix Photography

Posts: 3892

Syracuse, New York, US

I belong in Europe.

Dec 12 10 12:20 pm Link

Photographer

Dudley Watson

Posts: 1737

Roseburg, Oregon, US

A few years ago, I had the pleasure of working with a gal from Sweden.  She had no squawks about changing in front of me or with a car door for 'privacy'.  Later, when we worked in a motel room, with a hot tub, all clothing on her became a burden!

Dec 12 10 12:20 pm Link

Photographer

StanJan

Posts: 40

Orlando, Florida, US

Please don't include "we" Americans as if it's all Americans who are uptight about the beauty of human nudity. It is "we" Americans who allow religious fundamentalists to influence politicians to pass restrictive laws. An artistic image of a nude beautiful woman makes me feel as good as listening to beautiful music. The fact that I can occasionally create images like that makes me feel even better. Once in a while I receive a compliment about one of my images; that makes me feel still better. So sue me for using photography in this way to feel good!

Dec 12 10 12:29 pm Link

Photographer

Jerry Nemeth

Posts: 28006

Dearborn, Michigan, US

I've photographed many US models nude!  They were very comfortable nude!
I also recently photographed a Czech model nude!    smile

Dec 12 10 01:45 pm Link

Photographer

sjx

Posts: 899

Boston, Massachusetts, US

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:

Say hi to Bubba for me . . . .

hey Bubba!

Dec 12 10 01:49 pm Link

Photographer

SANCTUAIRE

Posts: 8020

Tampa, Florida, US

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
If you are in the United States . . .

Be aware that unless a 'traveling model' has a US issued work permit, that it's illegal for you to hire her.


The Homeland Security regulations are very clear about this.

Also, the 2257 regulations require that she have a US issued picture ID as well.

KM

This is great info.   I learn something every day on MM.

Dec 12 10 01:51 pm Link

Model

Paul Nuss

Posts: 1324

Hollywood, Florida, US

I guess I'm European at heart.

Dec 12 10 01:52 pm Link

Photographer

Jerry Nemeth

Posts: 28006

Dearborn, Michigan, US

Dudley Watson wrote:
A few years ago, I had the pleasure of working with a gal from Sweden.  She had no squawks about changing in front of me or with a car door for 'privacy'.  Later, when we worked in a motel room, with a hot tub, all clothing on her became a burden!

Many American models have changed in front of me.   big_smile

Dec 12 10 01:53 pm Link

Model

Meant4

Posts: 467

Baltimore, Maryland, US

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:

WRONG !!

You can spend 5 years in federal prison for each and every mistake in your 2257 record keeping. You must have copies and electronic scans of a models legal, government issued picture ID.

Without a work permit, you are not able to do any kind of business arrangement with an alien under any circumstances. You cannot hire them, sell them a car, or buy their house.

See...aliens are already here... We all are aliens depending on where we are smile

Dec 12 10 02:00 pm Link

Photographer

Shiva Photo

Posts: 1946

East Hills, New York, US

Hillary Devi R wrote:
It's not a big deal here in Italy (and in Europe in general I believe).

Looks like the US has very different values when it comes to nudity in print, media and advertising...

Dec 12 10 02:08 pm Link

Photographer

ThatPhotoPlace

Posts: 5

Milton Keynes, England, United Kingdom

Many Europeans are more aware of their own bodies and don't consider nudity taboo. I have worked there for several years an it's very common for girls to go topless during their lunch break whilst sitting in a park.

I often depends on where you are, many beaches allow topless all the time but you must get dressed to leave the beach.

Some local parks with swimming pools allow topless bathing in the evenings and some also blow a whistle at say 8pm which is the signal that you can go fully nude. It's strange to sit there talking to you boss while his wife is sitting alongside you fully naked.

Dec 12 10 02:11 pm Link

Photographer

John Malloch Caldwell

Posts: 2563

Hastings, England, United Kingdom

I now work in the UK and France, I was also resident and worked in the USA (CA and NV) for 10 years. Have lived and worked in Japan, Hong Kong and Russia. In my own experience I have found no difference in the models in any country. Some will work nude without any bother, some will not work nude. I think this idea that European models are different may just be a case of the 'grass being greener on the other side of the fence (insert Atlantic if you wish)'.

Dec 12 10 02:16 pm Link

Model

Isserley

Posts: 1650

Gent, East Flanders, Belgium

Marianne Michaela wrote:
it might be more normal here, but I think that is a generalization.
I can assure you that we have the same problems and complaints regarding modelling as you do smile

Marianne is right, as usual. Please don't generalize like this :p

Dec 12 10 02:25 pm Link

Model

Nikki Magnusson

Posts: 6841

Las Vegas, Nevada, US

we Swedes..

charge extra..

if we are forced to wear clothing for a shoot.. 

and yes I speak for all Swedes..lol..

Dec 12 10 02:39 pm Link

Photographer

R A V E N D R I V E

Posts: 15867

New York, New York, US

ThatPhotoPlace wrote:
Many Europeans are more aware of their own bodies and don't consider nudity taboo. I have worked there for several years an it's very common for girls to go topless during their lunch break whilst sitting in a park.

I often depends on where you are, many beaches allow topless all the time but you must get dressed to leave the beach.

Some local parks with swimming pools allow topless bathing in the evenings and some also blow a whistle at say 8pm which is the signal that you can go fully nude. It's strange to sit there talking to you boss while his wife is sitting alongside you fully naked.

unfortunately it isn't just the baywatch models that practice this in Europe

Dec 12 10 02:42 pm Link

Photographer

exartica

Posts: 1334

Bowie, Maryland, US

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
Many American models have changed in front of me.   big_smile

What did they change into?

OP:  I have yet to experience a shortage of American models who are comfortable enough in their own skin to wear only that.

Dec 12 10 02:58 pm Link

Photographer

punkuate

Posts: 1558

Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom

Steveba wrote:
Its pretty much like that in the UK, with the exception of the odd prude.

Do you live in a different UK than I do? hmm

Dec 12 10 03:22 pm Link

Photographer

Jerry Nemeth

Posts: 28006

Dearborn, Michigan, US

exartica wrote:
What did they change into?

OP:  I have yet to experience a shortage of American models who are comfortable enough in their own skin to wear only that.

Changed into nudity or lingerie.  A couple of models came to the shoot with a loose dress and nothing underneath.  They just took thier dress off and were ready to model nude!    smile
Last month I was walking around the desert with nude models.

18+
http://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pic/20276565

European model with Green card.
http://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pic/20276662

Dec 12 10 03:28 pm Link

Photographer

JoshuaDavisPhotography

Posts: 2430

San Francisco, California, US

Double double post.

Dec 12 10 03:28 pm Link

Photographer

JoshuaDavisPhotography

Posts: 2430

San Francisco, California, US

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
Without a work permit, you are not able to do any kind of business arrangement with an alien under any circumstances. You cannot hire them, sell them a car, or buy their house.

+1. I learned that the kind of hard way, best to not to f*ck around with the immigration authorities. Somebody else leaving my job position failed to do their paperwork properly, and so I wound up paying a contractor who did not have authorization to work here. Really if you're paying someone (especially with these new 1099 regulations) you need to get their SSN or tax ID number.

Dec 12 10 03:30 pm Link

Photographer

Wysiwyg Photography

Posts: 6326

Salt Lake City, Utah, US

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
If you are in the United States . . .

Be aware that unless a 'traveling model' has a US issued work permit, that it's illegal for you to hire her.


The Homeland Security regulations are very clear about this.

Also, the 2257 regulations require that she have a US issued picture ID as well.

KM

Yes... but just like downloading music... what is the likely hood of being caught... it's illegal.. but you only hear about the ones being caught out of how many people that do it?

Can you hire someone under the table?
Sure

Is it illegal?
Yep

How many have been caught doing so out of how many people that do it?
Don't know... it would be an interesting stat I'm sure.

Dec 12 10 03:43 pm Link

Photographer

I M N Photography

Posts: 2342

New York, New York, US

Hillary Devi R wrote:
Yes. there are 5 billboards in my immediate area of Pescara that feature female topless nudity (for a gym, for shoes, etc). It's not a big deal here in Italy (and in Europe in general I believe).

As recently as my last trip to Tuscany, there were billboards with topless models all over Florence. 

I do not have a moral opinion on the matter, since opinions have more to do with your personal values, and (sometimes) the intended use of the photographs.

There is a form of nudity with beautiful aesthetic value, and there is a form that appeals to another segment of the population. 

Unfortunately, it is the latter form that has been sensationalized in the States to the point where any form of nudity is viewed as a precursor to pornography.

A lot of models do not want to be viewed in that light, or run the risk of being associated with that genre, hence they avoid nudity in any form as long as they can.

Dec 12 10 03:46 pm Link