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Other places than this mayhem?
Well... since I started this site in the past few months (starting last fall) there have been a growing number of flakes.. its not another flake thread but.. really a question. Im going to be downgrading my account due to the number of flakes... so I was wondering if I should advertise in our local paper to attract local people or even go on craigslist? Any suggestions are great.. Before you give me an answer however, remember what mama said... "If you cant think of anything nice to say.. then dont say anything at all" Apr 13 11 05:51 pm Link I would look at changing what you are doing rather then where you are looking. Flakes are on Craigslist, OMP, Fetlife, and even call you from your main website... Apr 13 11 06:00 pm Link Apr 13 11 06:01 pm Link Death of Field wrote: What am I doing? I havent really changed my approach since I started in 2009. Ive adopted a no escort policy but thats it. Im always professional and havent had any complaints yet Apr 13 11 06:39 pm Link I've had much better luck getting models for trade via craigslist than I have here. I think relative success of each can vary greatly based on location. P.S. - I've been using MM since 2007, and I'm getting more cancelations with trade shoots (and even paid shoots) than ever before. It's not just you. Apr 13 11 06:46 pm Link There's a few others but this place has the most traffic.. And the flakes are everywhere! Apr 13 11 07:27 pm Link ACPhotography wrote: I agree flakes are everywhere. Even some of the more experienced models on here with strong portfolio flake out. Apr 13 11 07:32 pm Link Abbitt Photography wrote: I can only guess as to why they are flaking out more than ever now but theres other threads as to why people flake so I wont start that here. It just sucks its all of a sudden. And then models get mad when they dont get their pictures the next day. Maybe Ill just shoot trees.... always reliable and they are always in the same place Apr 13 11 08:22 pm Link Death of Field wrote: Agree! If you are only offering TF photo sessions then you will bring out lots of flakes. $ talks and BS walks. When I say bring mom or a girl friend. 90% of them show! I just finished with two Sunday at a 4 hour session. They brought there mothers. And these lady's were about 21 to 23 Apr 13 11 08:26 pm Link Flakes are frustrating...and can ruin your day sometimes. Personally, I have found that for whatever reason, my last minute schedules are the ones who are the most reliable. (Can you shoot tomorrow? Great. See you then.) My flakes have been the ones I have talked to in good planning advance. Either way, get a cell phone number and text the person the day before and the morning of. Apr 13 11 10:16 pm Link Honestly, when I was modeling I would never have worked with a photographer who had a no escort policy. You may know you're not a creep, but I don't. If a model is stupid enough to bring someone who causes problems, end the photo shoot and hopefully find a more professional model next time (therein lies the problem, right?). Some food for thought- every quality model I know personally brings an escort, no exceptions. Whether or not a model typically brings an escort, it is a red flag when a photographer states that escorts are not allowed. So, you're greatly limiting your selection of good models. That said, I've decided that too many models are flaky for these main reasons: 1) Many models are young with a maturity level to match. 2) Many models don't treat modeling professionally, whether or not they have dreams of "making it big," and don't worry about repercussions resulting from not showing up. You might not offer to work with them again, but there are plenty of other photographers who would. 3) Models here are constantly being offered modeling work, making them more likely to double-book. Apr 14 11 01:57 am Link It's not you, believe me, even though you think it works like that.You have a good body of work,maybe a little more fashion would help attract more serious ones.However,here are a few suggestions. 1.Money talks ,B.S. walks,pay em and they will come.(unfortunatly, not all ways) 2.Allowing an escort ups the number who show up dramaticly.Sometimes it is just the fact that you are open to an escort that makes the deal,many will come without anyone. 3.Find a good model who likes your work and work not just once but several times,up to 3-5 sessions, find another do the same and build a solid pool of reliable models.Those models will also bring to you other models who can be trusted. 4 Ask for and check references.Yes,I know people lie,but not everyone and it is just like when sending email out and you get the "red flags" comeing back. Learn to ask the right questions and how to analize the answers.It maybe only 50% accurate but that is still damn good. I pay,i don't do trade and more than once I have saved alot of time,effort and money because other photograhpers will be honest with you about a model. Apr 14 11 12:49 pm Link we have a couple models we just shoot whenever they're up for it (like my avatar) and we can think of something different than last time. works out great. i also like shooting referrals from my models (sometimes they are friends who've never modeled before). OMP has a feature where it emails you when a newbie signs up. stan wigmore photograph wrote: Apr 14 11 02:03 pm Link This always perplexes me. By MY definition of a flake, you could count on one hand. By MM's definition I've had two. This is over almost ten years of net models. Change your vetting process/make wiser choices? Apr 14 11 02:07 pm Link Personally the flake rate has never been higher and i have been on here 6 years in a very few days, i am now advertising in a local newspaper for models. Apr 14 11 02:10 pm Link Craigslist occasionally works for me but at a much lower rate - and a lot more waisted emails and perverts. I've done a few tfps that were extremely high quality work on onemodelplace.com, but never gotten many paid assignments. (from a models perspective) Apr 14 11 02:14 pm Link Liquid Projects wrote: What I think is nice is to tell the truth. If you can't handle the truth, then real problem lies within you, not the site not anything else. Apr 14 11 02:16 pm Link I'm an amateur photographer, if I adopted a no escort policy I don't think I'd get any models. After the first shoot they usually drop the escort but escorts don't bother me and it really seems to be mandatory for most of the models I work with on a first shoot. Flakes, the ones who want to model but can't set a date or don't show up or are always too busy. Models have photographers to deal with and we have models to deal with. Trees! You can't go wrong with nature or animal shots. I like cemeteries, old barns, gardens .... so much to shoot other than pretty girls. Apr 14 11 02:17 pm Link Wow, you have some nice images in your port. What I have discovered with CL though is you either get non-models, people you don't really want to photograph to begin with, lunatics, or MM members who are serious but you can just as easily find here. I did however find one of the most beautiful, professional models ever on CL once. Total class beauty and professionalism, this lady was. Did nudes and was just a slice of heaven. No, she is not in my port. At the time I was just learning and she let me shoot without a Model Release, though I'm sure she wondered why I didn't make her sign one, but since I don't have the release, I wont post her pics. Years ago and I didn't know any better... In any case I'm really surprised you cant find models. Your images are stellar.... Apr 14 11 02:18 pm Link Abbitt Photography wrote: QFT Apr 14 11 02:19 pm Link Cherrystone wrote: A big DITTO, Apr 14 11 02:21 pm Link I have used other sources then MM for trade shoots and I think the flake rate is about the same. I enjoy the site and the community, and the occasional TF* or traveling model. Honestly if its an important project or a concept that I *really* want or need to shoot I use agency models. Apr 14 11 02:24 pm Link Hi Mike, I'm sorry that you are having a problem with "flakes" here. Stating that you have a "no escort" policy should not be the reason why models are flaking on you. There are models here who will not flake on you AND who do not bring "escorts." In other words, it's not a good enough excuse to flake. Do consider looking at your methods of communication, and how you are confirming these models for shoots. I would like to have a conversation with you on the phone to go into more details, but I don't even have a flake rate as in 30 years, I've only had a couple. That was for car shows where I had plenty of models booked that they were not missed. Questions I would ask are do you have the models email, phone number and mailing address? Does the model have all of your information too? If you are working as a professional, there is no reason why you would not exchange this information. That is basic information that you will have the model fill out on your release or contract anyway. Is it easy for models to check your references, and vise a versa? Any way, you've gotten some good comments rrgarding this issue. I have had only a couple of flakes every so often in a period of years. I do the following things; (1) Get the people invested in the shoot. If money is being exchanged, she or he is more likely to show up on time! It's a serious loss if you show up late to court or the hospital. So if "serious loss" of money, freedom or life is involved, we show up! (2) Be sure you have exchanged cell phone numbers AND that directions are CLEAR. I have a minutes plan that allows for up 5,000 minutes and long distance so I don't care if I talk to someone while giving them directions. Communication is important! (3) Have alternative plans or things to do available to you so that you are not bored (which contributes to bad moods.) I like to have several people around so that I can put someone in right away to check lighting, warm up, etc. ... before the model gets there. Then when the model arrives, they jump in! It works that way in Hollywood! If you can find something else to occupy your time, you'll feel better. (4) Car pool or make arrangements for transportation. This is a good thing to do, especially when it's critical to have everyone there about the same time. Traffic becomes less of an "poor" excuse when we are together in it! I also have noticed that models who have a driver (or an escort, or assistant riding) do tend to arrive on time more often. It's nice to have someone helping with maps and directions. I'll even be the driver if necessary! (5) Use contracts or releases. Get it in writing and ready to be signed before shooting. Don't depend on word of mouth! If things are stated in writing, then issues can be resolved much easier. Minor differences become major if you don't do this. The above quoted from my thread which goes into further detail. https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 526&page=1 Also I don't even use the word "escort" because that word had a different meaning in my time before the Internet. I keep it in the positive by saying that "Invited guests" are acceptable as long as it's cleared with both the photographer AND model. I love having an audience since I'm a big ham about the stage!  Not all photographers and models are comfortable with having "guests" which could be anyone from the make up artists, to an assistant (no model has ever asked for a security guard and I have only been kidnapped once by a model and her female guest. That was before the Internet in what was an East German misunderstanding. I lived. Apr 14 11 03:04 pm Link I would think Craiglist would be a thousand times worse. I've only had a few flaky models. Almost all of them I met outside of MM. One was an MM model but much newer than most I've worked with. I'm with the people asking about your screening methods. Apr 14 11 03:11 pm Link Rich Burroughs wrote: I'm curious as to why you think that. I've had much better success over the past 3 years with CL. (In fact every TF nude shoot I booked, except 1 was through CL) I realize the demographics of models are different in different locations which will affect which venues work best. Apr 14 11 03:15 pm Link joe duerr wrote: I actually almost never check references. But I tend to work with people who have pretty deep ports, and have worked with people I know. If I see someone has worked with several good photographers I know, there's a very good chance they'll be reliable. Apr 14 11 03:16 pm Link You want to go outside the Mayhem? *insert robotic voice* I'm afraid I can't let you do that. But yeah, sometimes switching up how you book can affect your flake ratio. I know quite a few photographers only book jobs through the phone because it's harder to drop contact when they have a phone to call. Also, what kind of models are you booking? The newer they are, the more likely they are to flake. The longer they've been on, or the more shoots/credits they have on their profile and in their portfolio should tell you to an extent that they won't be as likely to flake.  Best of luck to you on that, though.Apr 14 11 03:17 pm Link If a model gets called back for a second day of shooting... that takes precedence over any new project. Unfortunately the TF's of an unknown photographer may be last on the list of a model that gets an urgent call for a paid shoot. There are a LOT of great models on this site. ----If you are looking for quality then this is the place... ----If you are looking for just any warm body to add some shots to your portfolio--for free-- without even a travel/food per diem, then you can expect *flakes* to sense your attitude. Could there be some signal or tone in your voice or attitude that you could be unknowingly giving off that causes a model to backpedal? Of course, they should call. Apr 14 11 03:35 pm Link Liquid Projects wrote: I'm not sure I get the correlation between the number of flakes and downgrading an account? Unless maybe the models were paying you and you can no longer justify the cost of VIP because of the flakes. Apr 14 11 03:42 pm Link Just throwing this out there, but I've had worse luck/shoots with photographers that made a big deal about stating no escorts on their profile. I won't bring one anyway, so it's never been an issue of shooting, but the photographs have been... not what I was going for (your portfolio is amazing, though, so don't take it like that). Definitely not a "causation" kind of assessment, but it is something I've noticed from my own personal experience. I've also had photographers that have been rather vague about the shoot location, or time, or some other factor, and they have then labeled me a flake. I drove a little over 50 miles at 6am to shoot before work once, only to have the photographer not be there. When I went back over the emails, texts, etc., he definitely said 6am, at that location... however there was somehow a miss-communication, and we didn't shoot. Communication, and definite, non vague communication... with exact dates/times/address if possible/etc etc etc is key. I always text/call the day before, to make sure nothing has come up, and then day of when I'm leaving my house to let them know I'm on the way. I had an issue once with that where I was involved in a wreck literally around the corner from the photographers studio, and it caused me to run late... but luckily by calling him, I had his phone number handy to let him know (and he gladly came and picked me up, and then my boyfriend at the time came to get me after the shoot so I could go finish dealing with the rental car and dealership). Yes, there are some of us here who take this "less seriously" than others... but that doesn't mean we'll flake. I know I'll never be a professional model, but I like doing it, and when I'm shooting I give it my all, just like I do in my real professional life. Apr 14 11 03:55 pm Link Outside the issue of flakes, if you shoot artistic nudes, I recommend you getting on ARTNudes -> http://figuremodels.org/ artistic nude networking site for photographers and models  Apr 14 11 04:03 pm Link J McLaren wrote: If you know her name it is not too late to contact her and ask. The release does not need to be signed the same day as the shots and you would be no worse off if she says no. (That is assuming the pictures would be worthwhile to add to your portfolio, you are probably more skilled now than then. Apr 14 11 05:11 pm Link Just getting back to all of your responses (and yes I did read all of them).. my issue is in giving details I guess. Thats the only thing I can think of. I try to include everything in my casting but I guess people dont pay attention most of the time to details in general. I used to work in a movie theater as a teenager and the prices of the tickets would be right behind me in big letters but yet.. I would get asked how much the ticket prices were so I guess I have to state the details again and ask to have a phone conversation wouldnt hurt. Most people love to text though and I do offer my number for anything that might come up but I dont hear anything until the shoots about to happen. Whatever reason they give... it all turns out the same.. cancelled shoot. Ill also look into other mediums too so I can expand castings... I mean.. not even Facebook is helping.. been doing this for over a year and only 116 fans. And Ive offered free shoots to spice up getting exposure but its not helping at all. Apr 14 11 05:11 pm Link Liquid Projects wrote: Giving details is important, but not so much in the casting calls. At least I look at it this way. I will write a short casting call with few details. Then typically there will be a more responses. I don't mind having a lot of responses to go through. Then when I narrow it down to the model(s) I want to work with, we talk on the phone along with emails and texting a few times. I always do a lot of communication with the models I'm working with. No need to give details to models you're not going to work with. Keep first contacts short and to the point. Details later ... Apr 14 11 11:19 pm Link Liquid Projects wrote: I think you'll find more reliability in non-internet models, like the newspaper you mentioned. Internet models are largely stuck in MySpace land (fantasy), and often don't take this at all seriously. Apr 14 11 11:27 pm Link I hear professional model agencies are great. Apr 15 11 01:41 am Link I have learned to accept Flakes and now Im dealing with models who love to do 5 finger discounts on my outfits. Apr 15 11 01:48 am Link Liquid Projects wrote: Expecting some, complaints that is ? Apr 15 11 03:00 am Link Magic Image Photography wrote: *wants to move to California faster so I can take part in this, makes grabby motions with fingers* Apr 16 11 01:32 am Link Liquid Projects wrote: At a quick glance: Apr 16 11 01:38 am Link |
