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Models that don't know how to model
Demon Photographic wrote: http://slamxhype.com/art-design/jeff-ko … -coverage/ Oct 19 11 01:30 am Link Rich Burroughs wrote: Interestingly, I disagree. Oct 19 11 01:47 am Link Phil Drinkwater wrote: Nopes. Because that's not the scenario we're talking about. We're talking about someone showing up at your door asking you to take good pictures of them. Even your comparison to testing for agencies does not apply. The agency *is* looking for an evaluation. The person at your doorstep is asking you, the photographer, for good pictures. The OP was savvy enough to ask for ways to successfully facilitate that when the 'talent' is obviously missing or underdeveloped. Oct 19 11 01:58 am Link Again I'd like to thank all of you for your continued discussion on this matter. This is my take away: First my confession...Yes, I am guilty of taking a massive amount of pictures thinking that some would be worth using. I was playing the numbers game. What all of you DO agree on, is that taking 800 photos was overkill. The Hail Mary method should not be my initial approach. As a professional, I need to invest more thought prior to pressing the shutter. I thank you for that direct and helpful slap to the face. Second...I finished culling and came up with about 40 pictures I am happy with. That is a 5% success rate. Pretty pitifull for this shoot. The good news is that is not my normal rate. I usually don't "spray & pray" but resorted to that once I saw she was so stiff. Third...A big fat THANK YOU to those of you that offered suggestions and links to examples and videos on shooting models. I will certainly soak those up to guide me in future shoots. I agree that it is not my position to "Teach" models how to model, but I DO carry the responsibility to bring the best out of the person that I am shooting. This experience, and your input, will make this a learning moment for me and other photographers that find themselves in the same position. On a life imitates art moment: Page 78-79 of the Victoria's Secret Fall Sale & Specials Catalog 2011 Vol 1. Features a model in several photos displaying only one expression: a look of disgust. Maybe I am ready for the big time after all!  Edit: I have failed to mention that the model had 4 clothing changes and 7 locations. Maybe 800 doesn't sound as bad now? Oct 19 11 01:59 am Link Mark Kwiatkowski wrote: And that, by itself, makes you an excellent photographer, my brother. : ) Oct 19 11 02:02 am Link Mosttry wrote: Umm.. that's not what we're talking about as far as I can see? We're talking about a model TFP session and she couldn't model: Oct 19 11 02:05 am Link Phil Drinkwater wrote: Huh? Oct 19 11 02:09 am Link It has happened over the years. I had an agency model come once , she was the worst case scenario. No expression, couldn't take directions, didn't have a clue. It's hard to accept , but sometimes there is nothing between you and your subject, thus the results are equal to this=null. IF you let this bother you, it shouldn't. Your next model is not the same person, and having this happen twice in a row are not going to happen. Well watch out for falling pianos, etc if it does! Oct 19 11 02:14 am Link Mosttry wrote: I give up... Oct 19 11 02:21 am Link I didn't read anything but your comment and I have this to say ..one you are the photographer yes, but two when you are not getting something that works you need to tell the model what to do, give directions, show her examples and help her to learn a some in the process. some of the models i have worked with have been happy to learn more about posing and what does, or doesn't work, during a shoot. you need to not be afraid to tell a model a look is not working or how to improve upon and fix the problem. It is your job to take good photographs, once you give her those good photographs it will be her who sees what she has done wrong..unless she likes the poses and looks she gave, or she might not even realize she has done what you do not like .... Oct 19 11 02:24 am Link also... I don't think anyone is stating that it's the photog's responsibility to turn the model into a "professional model". The OP was just asking, basically, 'what *can* *I* do in a situation where the model doesn't know what she's doing so that the photos are of some value to her". So, I'm def not saying any of the tips I mentioned are my way of "teaching" her how to be a good model. They are just tools for me, who's in charge, to guide/manipulate/change what's happening in front of my camera *at the time of the shoot* so that some good pics are taken. I don't think any of the methods I suggested will guarantee the model will be better at her next shoot. To go back to acting: that's the difference between a director directing an actor and an actor benefiting from an acting class. As the director/photographer, I'm not concerned with whether or not any of my 'tricks' will clue the model in as to what to do on her next shoot. I'm just guiding the proceedings taking place in front of my camera. ...and I don't think anyone is blaming the OP. Even those who have said directly "Yes, it's your fault" (of which I was not one), are just answering his question that "yes, there are some things that *you* can do to get rid of that look of disgust". Oct 19 11 02:25 am Link Phil Drinkwater wrote: Mebbe it's just the difference between being willing to shoot an amateur as opposed to only shooting professionals. *I* will take any assignment (probably). And if the talent is weak, I will enjoy trying to make the job work. Oct 19 11 02:26 am Link Mosttry wrote: ...cuz what's the alternative? Telling her to leave in the middle of the shoot that she's hired you to do? ...or not working with anyone with whom you've never worked before so you can be assured what they'll be like once they show up? (...the latter being logically impossible!). Oct 19 11 02:40 am Link Mosttry wrote: lol! Oct 19 11 03:24 am Link Having a model that runs through poses with heart is the goal seldom achieved. I prepare for the blank stare with preproduction work. I build my plan with the model and collect example photos for the shoot. I then share both the examples and current shots with the model during the shoot. To get heart out of them, you need to set the mood via direction and don’t forget music, it’s huge. I sometimes even build a mix CD based on the shoot. I recently did a shoot where I asked for the model’s top ten tunes and burnt a CD for the shoot… worked like a champ. Oct 19 11 07:47 am Link Thank Zeus some people who actually shoot models have chimed in here. Oct 19 11 07:49 am Link rapport , rapport , rapport.. Oct 19 11 07:58 am Link Admittedly I have not read every post in this thread, But thought I would chime in anyways. For the photographers that bear the sole responsibility of the image without the talent of the model I ask this. Why hire a model? In fact why are you on this site? If it is so easy to get the poses, emotions, looks your trying to achieve from someone with 0 talent or experience just find someone off the street or the classifieds. Some models are not as good as others and yeah, I think as a photographer you can make a bad situation better but your not going to get a stick in the mud to pose like a supermodel. Prospective models go to school for this stuff, it's not something you teach in a two hour photo shoot. So to the OP I would say that it is totally not your fault. However dealing with situations like this over and over again you will find that you learn how to rectify the situation as best as it can be done through your skills as a photographer. jay Oct 19 11 08:02 am Link If they can't model they are not a model. They are a subject. They can if you are patient and they show promise or are a natural, and you are a good director be taught to model. Or, you can take nice photos of a beautiful girl. That doesn't make her a model. Model is a verb. If they can't do it the noun cannot be applied to them. I have seen stunningly beautiful women who just can't model. And likewise very plain ones who are brilliant. Photographers who think a pretty subject is bound to make a good model will frequently encounter this; it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with you. Just book models who can model it isn't rocket science to tell from a port who's who. Oct 19 11 08:07 am Link Mosttry wrote:
Oct 19 11 08:37 am Link SEE MY COMMENT BELOW. Oct 19 11 08:37 am Link I am going to agree with Eliza here. I think a big part of the problem of this discussion is using the right terms. The OP, didn't have a model. A real model knows how to model. Knows her poses and expressions and can deliver on command. The OP didn't have a client. A client is a person who pays you to make a good picture of them called a portrait. What he had was a subject or maybe an object. LOL The goal was for two to contribute to the session so both could get a valuable image. She was unable to contribute, because she was a model. Yes, as a true pro people photographer, you do need to know how to direct and cajole to get the best possible result. Not all of "fashion" photographers are portraitists. It is an additional skill set. So if this is the kind of person the OP runs into often, he should decide if he want to put in that amount of effort and direction for a TF shoot. In other words, doing a portrait session for free. Or recognize it for what it is and say, I am sorry, but this isn't working for me and unless we can fix it, I either want to stop or you start paying me. Oct 19 11 08:39 am Link Mosttry wrote: You've directed? It's hard for me to imagine anyone who has directed novice actors making that statement. Oct 19 11 08:40 am Link Mark Kwiatkowski wrote: One thing I've discovered in this line of photography, is that the Photographer and the model do a LOT more creating TOGETHER! With modeling photography, It's more about "creating" photos than "taking" photos. This falls on BOTH the photographer and the model. A "collaboration". Oct 19 11 09:05 am Link I agree with both Eliza and Jay above. Before I started getting seriously into model photography, I didn't recognize how much modeling is dependent on a combination of real natural talent and carefully practiced professional skills. It makes all the difference to have a talented and professionally capable model to work with. Sure, you can do directing to a certain degree, but unless you are a truly brilliant director, you are never going to get the elegant visually pleasing poses or great facial expressions that a top-notch professional models can give you, even if your amateur or novice model is highly motivated. I specialize in artsy/artistic nudes, and I suspect that the contrast between amateur and professional models is even bigger there, because the professionals know how to flex their muscles and angle their whole bodies for the most beautiful effect overall and it is hard to direct that. After working with more than 50 different models of all levels of experience, I now find myself increasingly seeking to book repeat sessions with experienced full-time professional models like Danielle Trixie (MM#109506) and Adrina Lynn (MM#1017067), who I know will reliably give me outstanding results. I'm only a hobbyist photographer, so hiring this kind of top professional talent for my shoot is heavy on my wallet, but it is worth it to me because I'm really picky about what I want to create, and such professional models are far more likely to give me the quality work I'm looking for. I can direct models, but models who are experts at their trade will generally produce something better than the best I can create with an unskilled model of equal looks. (Of course, I'll work with beginning models occasionally as well - for who knows where new talent may be discovered, but I save up my dollars for booking professionals most of the time to get enough good quality work done). Case in point. I worked with two models on the same afternoon in Arizona in April, in the same location. The first one was relatively new to modeling, and even though she had a fine figure and a beautiful face, I just could not get the images I wanted, no matter how we both tried. Well, a couple of hours later it was Adrina Lynn's turn: She walks onto the scene, and mere four or five shots into the session, without a single word of direction from me she had gotten me exactly the beautiful figure images what I was striving for in that setting: Every muscle, every limb and facial expression just right to look good. That's talent, and worth paying good money for. (BTW - here is a sample of her from that shoot, taken less than a minute after beginning to work together with no direction, so that you can see what I'm talking about (18+ image: https://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pic/22571006 So I think directing and good intentions and efforts on photographer and models' part only can accomplish a limited amount without adequate talent and experience. When you can afford it, hiring top professional talent (especially models who clearly are expert posers based on their portfolios), even if just occasionally, will therefore boost the quality of your output greatly. I should also add that among those professional models, I think even more valuable are those with a strong creative streak and desire to really push the limits in their modeling. Those you most certainly do not want to direct too much, but rather encourage them to be creative and do their thing. One of the best examples of that fine breed of models I've encountered so far is Katlyn Lacoste (MM# 1227596). All you need to do is tell her that you want something very unique and unusual, and she'll come up with really striking things in a flash (like in these two 18+ examples https://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pic/20387705 and https://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pic/25379841 undirected and spontaneously created by her. That type of originality on top of good professional skill makes a model a veritable artistic collaborator and is worth every penny you pay the model, in my opinion. Oct 19 11 09:57 am Link This is really a very interesting thread. I have read some of the responses several times and the links are helpful. My response just by reading the OP's statement/question is that obviously the model is a newbie or needing help to build her portfolio. That is why she contacted the OP. I just do not see a very experienced model wanting to shoot with any photographer not among the top photographers here on MM tf to help build thier portfolio. The top/very experienced/elite models here can demand "paid" shoots even from the best of the best photographers. Therefore I think that in keeping with the newbie or model wanting to improve her work needing help is where this thread is meant to go. While I do not say that I am among the best I do know that first I would have done some homework had she contacted me. I would have looked at what she had in her port to give me some idea of what she can do. Before I even work with her I get an idea of her comfort level of what kind of pics she is interested in too. When she arrives I first work on getting her comfortable with me so we talk a bit. I may even shoot a few frames just to get her relaxed and into the shoot. Again saying that this is a newbie or model needing help to improve her port. I know from experience that it may take longer to shoot this model so I set aside the time. After all I agreed to shoot with her knowing that more than likely she will need direction with poses, expressions, following my directions. Shooting tf with a model like this is what I already expect. One of the things that I like to do with newbies or models that I think need help is to select a small number of looks and poses from models portfolios here. I explain that the pose, looks, expressions are a guideline and what I am looking for is for her to be able to give me something close to that but wanting to have her create her own pose/image that is hers and not try to exactly duplicate what I show her. Many times the end results from the shoot I find that the best work I get from the model is none of the poses that we started with but instead that she found herself experimenting and creating poses and looks that worked best for her, that we worked together as a team to make it happen. For me that is what it is all about, the model giving me her best look. And I like to take breaks to go over what we are getting, giving her an idea of what she looks like, maybe even discussing how we could do a look over to get it better. This is the part that I love because this is many times when I get my best work from newbie models that have little to no experience. Other photographers can say all they want about who is to blame, about the model should have the experience or that they would have ended the shoot and looked for another model but for me I look at it as I am the one who made the committment to the model to shoot her tf and I am going to do my best to give her pics that are more than what she would have been happy with. I want her to understand what is a good pic. As a photographer myself and still working on improving my own work I want the lighting and colors to be as close to perfect as possible. I want the setting to be right and I look at each image so that if something that does not belong in the picture is removed and we shoot it again. I could fix it in photoshop but why not fix it before I take the pic. Oct 19 11 10:08 am Link IMO, a 'professional model' is one who takes direction well and energetically. I modeled for nearly 2 years before I began shooting, and my best work was shot when the photographers I modeled for gave me good direction. I shot one of my publications as a photographer with a 16-y/o girl...it was her first time modeling in her life. As the others have said and I agree with, sadly the onus is upon the photographer of how the images turn out entirely  The images are ours   IMHO alone, as always; ~Danny http://dbiphotography.co.cc https://www.modelmayhem.com/2401686 https://www.modelmayhem.com/1983551 Edit: I *did* mean that all this was true, provided s/he took direction well, and had a positive attitude. Nobody can get blood from a stone, or lead a horse to water when that horse is a stubborn mule! A 'bad' model is a stubborn brick, not one who lacks skill - IMO. Just wanted to be clearer on my position  Oct 19 11 05:01 pm Link Mosttry wrote: +1 Oct 19 11 06:30 pm Link -Koa- wrote: Actually I say that all the time. My strongest images are very much due to the work of the models. Oct 20 11 12:23 am Link Mark Laubenheimer wrote: i 2nd that..... Oct 20 11 12:38 am Link -Koa- wrote: But I don't want lemonade (poor posing / facial expressions) I want Diet Coke (Coco Chanel facial expressions.) Oct 20 11 12:43 am Link Rich Burroughs wrote: Oct 20 11 12:58 am Link Mark Kwiatkowski wrote: Beautiful scenery. I gotta get to Hawaii some day! Oct 20 11 01:09 am Link Mosttry wrote: I'm saying that bad actors giving a good performance are exceptions. I don't think there are plenty of them. You've named one that I think is even debatable. And the exceptions are usually when someone is basically playing themselves. Oct 20 11 02:02 pm Link Mark Kwiatkowski wrote: Cause then you have look through 800 photos... Oct 20 11 03:51 pm Link Mark Kwiatkowski wrote: I would try avoid shooting when you're not "feeling" it; or else learn a way to make yourself feel it. Oct 20 11 04:12 pm Link I did a shoot a model asked me for once. We were on location and she complained it was cold. I said, it was chilly but you knew that before you came out. She stop complaining but it was oblivious that she was cold and her expressions showed it. So, I stopped shooting. She said she wanted to continue but, I said no. You have to know when to cut your losses and 800 images is WAY past that line. The ideal of TF is that we both benefit if that isn't going to be the case. Then why are you shooting? Koa has said it correctly. We as photographers are totally responsible for what we shoot. If things aren't right then stop shooting. Correct it if possible but don't continue hoping things will improve on their own. However sometimes models loosen up and get into the session. It can be hard to know if that will happen. Yet if after 25 or so shots it hasn't odds are it may not. You have to know to when to stop. Oct 20 11 04:29 pm Link Why would you shoot 800 photos? You do realize some of the best photographers in the world take maybe 2 or 3 pictures? As a photographer, you must know how to direct the model and tell them what you want, as a model, we cannot read your mind. Also, what is your energy level? As a model, if we work with someone who is dull and has no energy, it is hard to be like ALL HAPPY and full of energy like we just consumed 10 cans of jolt or redbulls. A good photo shoot has to have lots of energy, has to be fun, otherwise it will be awkward and the pictures will suck. Oct 20 11 04:43 pm Link With this thread in mind after my last post, I went out and shot me a non-model. An MUA, who hadn't done any modeling for a bonafide photographer before. Modeling INHO isn't having the skill to pose & express with zero-direction, but rather the ability to take direction *well*, and perhaps occasionally come up with some sh** on her own while I'm fiddling with my equipment or wtvr. A stubborn mule of a model is no model, but a *person* who takes direction well and tries to follow it energetically...that is the type of model I prefer shooting with. I may be biased however, as my preference goes to the noobs with pleasant dispositions... One of my MUAs, as-captured by me when we planned a shoot regardless of whether or not we ever secured a model...    IMHO alone, as always; ~Danny http://dbiphotography.co.cc https://www.modelmayhem.com/2401686 https://www.modelmayhem.com/1983551 Oct 20 11 11:12 pm Link Janos - wrote: Well-said. I agree, the high-energy needs to be on BOTH sides of the camera. The two need to feed off of each other (model/shooter), and practice some teamwork! Lol! Oct 20 11 11:14 pm Link |
Stay positive, don't let them drag you down.
