Forums > General Industry > Policy for models who flake on you?

Photographer

Farenell Photography

Posts: 18832

Albany, New York, US

Photography InFocus wrote:
So if they call before flaking, to warn you, then you are more apt to give them a second chance?

Yeah. Not all "flake" excuses are created equal.

If they no-call/no-show w/ no communication even after the fact, I'm not likely to give them a 2nd chance.

If I get the sense that they're bailing/canceling the night before or day for other opportunities, I'm not likely to give them a 2nd chance.

If I'm losing time off & money from the day job to accomodate a schedule, I'm reluctant to offer a 2nd chance.

If its an act of God thing like someone dying or wrecking their car (yes, it sounds like a lame excuse but I have had that happen on my end), I'm prone in being sympathetic & allowing another chance.

If an already established a good working relationship prior to, I'm prone to offer a 2nd chance...to a point.

I just don't believe in absolutes. As long as I "feel" my time is being respected (however that's defined), I'm open to 2nd chances.

Feb 08 12 09:10 am Link

Retoucher

Sunrise Retouching

Posts: 79

Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US

You know I rate this topic just as high as models putting topics on about escorts. Get over it!! As long as there's models there going to be no shows,and if the shoot was a TF big deal.If you call off on your day job to shoot well then that was your stupidity.

Feb 08 12 09:52 am Link

Photographer

Through Laras Lens

Posts: 1

Greensboro, North Carolina, US

The last model to flake on me sent an email the morning of the shoot saying that he would meet me on location. I drove out to the location and waited four hours in the cold fall air before finally going home with the sniffles. When I went back to check my email he hadn't messaged me so I sent another email asking if he was alright. A few hours later the teen replied that his grandmother had fallen in the kitchen and was rushed to the hospital; he was the only one in the house so he rode in the ambulance with her. I kept check on his grandmother's status throughout the week and eventually she came home healthy and he rescheduled showing up on time. My second almost flake was a female model that was thirty minutes out of town. It was her friend's birthday the day before and she had stayed out all night. The model didn't have her own car so even though she was ready for the group shoot she had to wait for a friend to wake up and she ended up showing up on location over four hours late meaning we shot until dark but still got amazing group frames. My point is that if a model flakes, they probably have a reason no matter how big or small. I try not to hold it against them and attempt to reschedule if I'm not on a deadline.

Feb 08 12 10:03 am Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 26342

Portland, Oregon, US

Photography InFocus wrote:
Should they get a second chance? If a model flakes will you tell your fellow photographer buddies? Can you list the model on your MM account?

In my opinion:

Appropriate Things To Do:
...  Give her a second chance.
...  Don't give her a second chance.
...  Tell photographers who know you & trust you.
...  Don't tell anyone.
...  Cut off communications.


Inappropriate Things To Do:
...  Start yet another "flake" thread on these forums.
...  Tell strangers your side of the story, expecting them to believe you w/o hearing
     her side of the story.
...  (When hearing about a flake, believing it without hearing both sides of the story).
...  Demand explanations.  Explanations are irrelevant.
...  Post a list on your profile -- that's childish & vindictive; your profile is your best
     chance to make a good first impression, and a negative list interferes with that.
...  Seek revenge.  It's a waste of time & energy.


I repeat -- these are my opinions only.  Do what you want, but I suggest that you ask yourself, what would a consummate professional do?

Feb 08 12 10:06 am Link

Photographer

Peach Jones

Posts: 6906

Champaign, Illinois, US

Photography InFocus wrote:
Should they get a second chance? If a model flakes will you tell your fellow photographer buddies? Can you list the model on your MM account?

If they have a really good reason, I will usually give them another chance. If they just blow me off or are disrespectful, then no. And yes, I do tell my photographer buddies, and they tell me too

Feb 08 12 10:10 am Link

Photographer

Eralar

Posts: 1781

Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada

Simple: my policy is "Judge by the situation". You can't put everyone in the same basket...

Depends on the excuse of the model (credibility), my loss (and the team's, if applicable), the relation I have with the model, and how much I want to work with that model in particular.

So far, happened only twice: one I'll never work with anymore, the other had a broken ankle the night before, so I believe it was a good reason for not being at the shoot and having difficulty to communicate with me. Would try to shoot again with her.

Feb 08 12 10:10 am Link

Photographer

Jeffrey M Fletcher

Posts: 4861

Asheville, North Carolina, US

I've just been dealing with two models who cancelled and I saw this thread. Here's the examples.

#1 Just emailed me to cancel next Tuesday's session that we had scheduled because "it's valentines day and my boyfriend wants me to get naked for him." - so I get a good laugh and think, no doubt. This model is a woman with a substantial background in classical and modern dance, wonderfully in shape and good looking, enthusiastic and creative. These are her first nude modeling sessions. I just found out last session that what she had mentioned as "some yoga experience" actually meant that she was extraordinarily experienced and could go into some fairly extreme contortions happily, at length.

So I'm figuring out if I can move things around to reschedule.

#2 Just resurfaced, on the schedule that she said she'd be on a few weeks back when she had cancelled her first session on the day of the session because she had started her period. She's a first time nude model also.

I rescheduled her and I'll bet this time she shows up on time and ready to go.

I'm dealing with models who are young and sometimes with limited experience. I expect there to be scheduling problems sometimes. Some of the same people who have had problems at times have turned out to be my most available, loyal and committed models, who perform repeatedly in difficult circumstances and really put forth extraordinary efforts.

I do a great deal of weeding out in the initial contacts and tend to be pretty happy with the performance overall.

Feb 08 12 10:23 am Link

Photographer

Darren Brade

Posts: 3351

London, England, United Kingdom

ddtphoto wrote:
No second chance.

I don't have much tolerance for stuff like that these days. In fact, I just had this sexy young model from MM I was going to test with this past weekend. The night before the shoot she's texting me asking "what exactly did you want me to bring to wear?"

Just a few days before I had a phone call with her explaining all of that. So I knew there was more to it. I texted back, "I think we already covered that, no?"

Sure enough, eventually it got around to " So hey, like, my parents are all worried about me going to a shoot alone. Cool if my mom comes with me? She's petite and super fun!"

I told her to tell her parents she's a big girl now.

Then she asked, "Well, what if it's someone else like a girlfriend?"

At that point I just said, "Let's just cancel this shoot. I've got a lot of other shit I need to be doing anyway."

I just didn't feel like dealing with it. All of you photographers know, it's a lot of work setting up those lights, shooting, tearing the set, editing, processing files, tweaking or retouching them. And honestly there was a lot of other shit I should have been doing besides shooting some hot young chick in her underwear with her "super fun and petite" mom over my shoulder.

Hmmm. I think you missed reading between the lines which was "Mommy needs some new free pictures".

Feb 08 12 10:30 am Link

Photographer

Primordial Creative

Posts: 2353

Los Angeles, California, US

Haven't ever had a complete no-show.  I've had plenty who sound excited, say they are really wanting to shoot, and then disappear when I email to talk concepts.  And I have plenty who say something came up and they can't shoot a day or so before.

if they are a stranger I move on and forget they existed.

if they are a repeat model I would try to set something else up if they asked.  But I won't go out of my way to shoot them again.

Feb 08 12 10:53 am Link

Photographer

A Thousand Words

Posts: 590

Lakeland, Florida, US

I'm pretty new here so please forgive me if I post something that has been done to death.

I was supposed to meet a potential model today for the first time.  I like to do this when I can to establish chemistry, talk about ideas in person, and get a feel for what the model REALLY looks like.  Today was the second attempt to meet this model.  The first attempt, I waited at the appointed, public location for an hour past our meet time.  No response to my messages until a couple of hours later.  She asked to reschedule for another day (today).  I agreed since I wasn't doing anything (or so I thought).

Today, with my wife in the hospital with kidney failure, I still was going to make the meeting.  I feel that, as a professional, I should do whatever I could to be there.  Besides, my wife was having a procedure done and all I was going to be doing was sitting in her empty room, or at home.  As I'm driving to the meeting place, I get an email saying that she has another "family drama" and she has to cancel.

Will I give her another chance?  I don't know.  I am working on building my portfolio and gaining experience with many types of models.  But I can't really say if its worth it or not.  I guess I'll decide if and when she contacts me again.  But you can be sure I'm not going to contact her.  I won't chase a model.

Feb 09 12 08:15 pm Link

Photographer

Paranoid Android Photos

Posts: 5

London, England, United Kingdom

I'd never advocate stalking of course, but when I'm organising a shoot a lot of models ask me to follow their twitter/facebook/tumblr. And then, when the inevitable last minute cancellation/no-show happens, you'll also get their twitter/facebook/tumblr popping up in your feed to say what they're really up to. With a lot of people publishing their every movement somewhere publicly on the web it's quite easy to find out who is yanking your chain or not - whether you even want to or not.

Feb 10 12 07:58 am Link

Photographer

S230

Posts: 646

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

No second chance.

I personally treat flaking seriously because they can impact everybody's schedule. 

Sometimes REAL emergencies does happen but unfortunately there are too many bad applies that lie about the fact.

The worst of the worst are ones that don't call or answer and decide to respond a few days later with fake or lame excuse. 

I do keep personal note of all bad models but I will list the worst ones.  I had worked with many models (good and bad) over the years and so far I only listed two in my profile.

Feb 11 12 09:04 pm Link

Photographer

S230

Posts: 646

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Orca Bay Images wrote:
IMO, there's a gray area between flakery and cancellation. It all depends on context and how much time and resources the model caused me to waste.

If she causes me to inconvenience other models, MUAs or photographers because of her flake/cancellation, she's blacklisted.

It also depends on whether she notifies me or if I have to seek her out and find out if she's bailed. I usually contact the model the day or night before the shoot, to verify she's ready. If she says she can't make it, I have to wonder if she was ever going to tell me.

If she's cancelled on me before, she doesn't get the benefit of the doubt this time.

Calling or emailing me the day of the shoot and saying she partied too hard the night before... I appreciate the notice but the gross lack of preparation makes it a flakeout.

A reasonable and sincere cancellation or postponement with reasonable notice get the benefit of the doubt. The window varies according to the inconvenience.

Repeated reschedules due to mass casualties in the family = flake.

Flat-out no-call/no-show = blacklist.

Getting caught in a lie about a cancellation = blacklist.

I do share model info -- good and bad -- with photographer friends.

I'll schedule with model/client who flaked on me before, but only with payment to me in advance.

+1.  Well said.  Mine is very similar to yours.

Feb 11 12 09:06 pm Link

Photographer

Image Works Photography

Posts: 2890

Orlando, Florida, US

Photography InFocus wrote:
Should they get a second chance? If a model flakes will you tell your fellow photographer buddies? Can you list the model on your MM account?

It depends on the term flake- some refer it as cancellations and others as no shows. I go with the policy of cancellation at least 24hrs before. I have rescheduled and had a great shoot so yes I can but a no show is the ultimate crime for me. How dare any person waste someone's time and energy. People like that are a disgrace to the industry and shouldn't belong here.Yes- they need to be exposed but you can't out someone here. Its the pain on dealing on these and other websites.

Feb 12 12 07:59 am Link

Model

RosieA

Posts: 73

Auckland, Auckland, New Zealand

I've just started photographing models and I have a whole new appreciation for what some photographers have to put up with. I was due to do a morning shoot with one model and had contacted her the night before to make sure that she was good to go. I show up the following morning, she never shows up. I text and phone, no reply/answer. I was so disappointed.

I will never attempt to work with her again.

I have never and will never be a no-show (both as a model and a photog), the very worst would be if I couldn't make it, I'd contact them (and thank goodness that hasn't happened to date). It's just common courtesy.

Feb 12 12 09:59 pm Link

Photographer

Images by MR

Posts: 8908

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Photography InFocus wrote:
Policy for models who flake on you?

Should they get a second chance?

Never...

Feb 12 12 10:02 pm Link

Photographer

GER Photography

Posts: 8463

Imperial, California, US

Every instance is of course different, but everyone who gives at least 24hrs. notice should be given a second chance. If you dont give proper notice, you should not expect a second chance.

Feb 12 12 10:10 pm Link

Photographer

Daeda1us

Posts: 1067

Little Rock, Arkansas, US

Looknsee Photography wrote:
In my opinion:

Appropriate Things To Do:
...  Give her a second chance.
...  Don't give her a second chance.
...  Tell photographers who know you & trust you.
...  Don't tell anyone.
...  Cut off communications.


Inappropriate Things To Do:
...  Start yet another "flake" thread on these forums.
...  Tell strangers your side of the story, expecting them to believe you w/o hearing
     her side of the story.
...  (When hearing about a flake, believing it without hearing both sides of the story).
...  Demand explanations.  Explanations are irrelevant.
...  Post a list on your profile -- that's childish & vindictive; your profile is your best
     chance to make a good first impression, and a negative list interferes with that.
...  Seek revenge.  It's a waste of time & energy.


I repeat -- these are my opinions only.  Do what you want, but I suggest that you ask yourself, what would a consummate professional do?

Under things to do, you left out:
Start a thread of amusing (or most unbelievable) flake excuses.

Still waiting to read a "I was abducted by aliens" excuse.  I mean, come on... even if they are flaking, at least it was a cool excuse!  big_smile

(btw, YES, I have heard people with that particular "complaint" in the ER... definitely gets your attention.  LOL!)

Feb 13 12 08:37 am Link

Photographer

Darren Sermon

Posts: 1139

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Photography InFocus wrote:
Should they get a second chance? If a model flakes will you tell your fellow photographer buddies? Can you list the model on your MM account?

How do you give someone who doesn't really want to work with you a "second chance"?

Feb 13 12 08:42 am Link

Photographer

Mike Adams Photos

Posts: 1217

Cleveland, Ohio, US

The block list.

Facebook | Twitter

Feb 13 12 08:43 am Link

Photographer

Photographe

Posts: 2351

Bristol, England, United Kingdom

fickle business, you never know who is going to be famous in 3 years time.

that's why.

Some models I wasn't particularly impressed with, became famous actresses. Keeley Hawes is one. Great actress, but when she was 17/18 she was still becoming comfortable with the demands of modelling. Natalie Imbruglia at 25, wasn't a skilled model. Same with agencies. Be careful about burning bridges, models move from agent to agent as they improve their career.

Feb 13 12 08:45 am Link

Photographer

Andrew Bruce

Posts: 122

CLEARWATER BEACH, Florida, US

ddtphoto wrote:
No second chance.

I don't have much tolerance for stuff like that these days. In fact, I just had this sexy young model from MM I was going to test with this past weekend. The night before the shoot she's texting me asking "what exactly did you want me to bring to wear?"

Just a few days before I had a phone call with her explaining all of that. So I knew there was more to it. I texted back, "I think we already covered that, no?"

Sure enough, eventually it got around to " So hey, like, my parents are all worried about me going to a shoot alone. Cool if my mom comes with me? She's petite and super fun!"

I told her to tell her parents she's a big girl now.

Then she asked, "Well, what if it's someone else like a girlfriend?"

At that point I just said, "Let's just cancel this shoot. I've got a lot of other shit I need to be doing anyway."

I just didn't feel like dealing with it. All of you photographers know, it's a lot of work setting up those lights, shooting, tearing the set, editing, processing files, tweaking or retouching them. And honestly there was a lot of other shit I should have been doing besides shooting some hot young chick in her underwear with her "super fun and petite" mom over my shoulder.

lol. this is every other weekend for me with a "model".

I will give props to the awesome ones who show without gimmicks, barters, or lame chaperones. Always put together amazing shoots with them.

Sep 27 16 01:51 pm Link

Artist/Painter

Hunter GWPB

Posts: 8155

King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, US

Sep 27 16 07:57 pm Link

Photographer

FFantastique

Posts: 2535

Orlando, Florida, US

Very oddly, it's OK to make a judgment "not recommended"
but not factual "did not show."

The model didn't show--factual statement made on MM. BAD.
I didn't want to say "not recommended." because that was not true.

Years later, I still don't know how to tell the truth under the MM constraints.
Of course, I could fail to disclose. But that violates my sense of ethics.

So I've decided that since people can't handle the truth, I should just dispense with ethics!
I have consciously made a decision to be slightly unethical--under these circumstances.
Withholding information.

Sep 27 16 08:25 pm Link

Photographer

Barry Kidd Photography

Posts: 3351

Red Lion, Pennsylvania, US

I use to be forgiving.  Way forgiving.  These days I'm a one strike your out kind of guy.

Sep 28 16 09:12 am Link

Photographer

Top Gun Digital

Posts: 1528

Las Vegas, Nevada, US

I have a zero tolerance policy for flakes.  When I was more lenient in the past and gave models a second chance they always flaked the second time around as well.

Sep 28 16 09:27 am Link

Photographer

Garry k

Posts: 30123

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

I have had the occassional flake over the years and have had no tolerance for such behavior

Recently i shot with an agency model who was 2 hrs late and ( unexpectedly did not have her new hair color completeld )
THe Shoot went well though and there were many potentially good shots taken ( if not for the hair issue )

She now has her hair "completed " and has messaged me several times requesting a reshoot . I have refused and told her that she wasted both my time and money with the first shoot ( I had paid $30 for her makeup to be done )


I did run into her the other night at  backstage at a fashion gala - and complimented her on her finished hair . But that only seemed to prompt her to start texting me again the next day asking for a reshoot

Sorry Sweetie

Sep 28 16 10:20 am Link

Photographer

Garry k

Posts: 30123

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

oopsie

Sep 28 16 10:20 am Link

Photographer

Risen Phoenix Photo

Posts: 3779

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

Happened only a handful of times in 7 years. But if it does, I block them on MM and tell every potential photographer they might work with that they are un reliable

Sep 28 16 11:49 am Link

Photographer

Tony Lawrence

Posts: 21526

Chicago, Illinois, US

I try to be very flexible because in most cases I'm not paying the models.   While people should call or email to cancel sometimes they don't.   I tell models to confirm an hour or so before a planned shoot,   I think if you ask someone to shoot and they flake or cancel last minute try and be understanding because you approached them.   If they ask you however the onus is on them to be more responsible.   Let me be clear in every case models should let photographer know they aren't coming but I also understand that people forget or change their minds.    The key is not to take or make it personal.   Only arrange sessions times that are convenient to you.   Don't pay for studio time for unknown models.   Most of all make sure to get confirmation calls, emails or texts.

Sep 28 16 01:22 pm Link

Photographer

Saitama

Posts: 29

New York, New York, US

i get flaked on a lot, like big time, even by my friends, or ppl i know.  The last girl who flaked on me was during an outdoor night shoot.  We had scheduled for that time, we met, talked, went to the neighborhood where the location was but before we actually got to the spot I was going to shoot her at she started complaining a number of times about how dark it was, and how it wouldn't make for good photos, and how she wasn't feeling it, then just left.  For the record, there was enough ambient street lights to easily shoot without a flash, that's how bright it was, and it was a safe and public area.  But I wasn't going to argue my point any further. I had already shown her photos of the location when we met and she didn't have an issue.

I don't have a policy, I typically won't work with that person again.  If anyone asks I'll them my experience.

Sep 28 16 01:29 pm Link

Photographer

Risen Phoenix Photo

Posts: 3779

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

Saitama wrote:
i get flaked on a lot, like big time, even by my friends, or ppl i know.  The last girl who flaked on me was during an outdoor night shoot.  We had scheduled for that time, we met, talked, went to the neighborhood where the location was but before we actually got to the spot I was going to shoot her at she started complaining a number of times about how dark it was, and how it wouldn't make for good photos, and how she wasn't feeling it, then just left.  For the record, there was enough ambient street lights to easily shoot without a flash, that's how bright it was, and it was a safe and public area.  But I wasn't going to argue my point any further. I had already shown her photos of the location when we met and she didn't have an issue.

I don't have a policy, I typically won't work with that person again.  If anyone asks I'll them my experience.

It seems to me you should get one. I would never allow that to happen. I would never have agreed to work with her.

Sep 28 16 02:24 pm Link

Photographer

ChadAlan

Posts: 4254

Los Angeles, California, US

Photography InFocus wrote:
Should they get a second chance?

Case by case basis, but they are moved down my mental list of models to follow up with. I will usually just forget about them, unless they make a serious effort to reschedule.

I might tell a photographer friend that someone flaked, but won't mention a name unless they ask. Thankfully it's very rare that it happens.

Sep 28 16 02:30 pm Link

Photographer

Saitama

Posts: 29

New York, New York, US

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

It seems to me you should get one. I would never allow that to happen. I would never have agreed to work with her.

There was no indication of this type of behavior until we actually started walking towards the location.

Sep 28 16 02:34 pm Link

Photographer

ChadAlan

Posts: 4254

Los Angeles, California, US

Saitama wrote:
i get flaked on a lot, like big time, even by my friends, or ppl i know.  The last girl who flaked on me was during an outdoor night shoot.  We had scheduled for that time, we met, talked, went to the neighborhood where the location was but before we actually got to the spot I was going to shoot her at she started complaining a number of times about how dark it was, and how it wouldn't make for good photos, and how she wasn't feeling it, then just left.  For the record, there was enough ambient street lights to easily shoot without a flash, that's how bright it was, and it was a safe and public area.  But I wasn't going to argue my point any further. I had already shown her photos of the location when we met and she didn't have an issue.

I don't have a policy, I typically won't work with that person again.  If anyone asks I'll them my experience.

That sounds like someone who didn't trust your vision. How would she know if the lighting wouldn't produce good results? Is she a photographer?

I occasionally shoot models who are photographers as well, but they trust my vision and that's the way it should be. And oftentimes shooting is about experimenting, and trying different locations if the original one isn't working out.

It sounds like she was making an excuse?

Sep 28 16 02:40 pm Link

Photographer

Greg Kolack

Posts: 18392

Elmhurst, Illinois, US

FYI - 4 1/2 year old thread bumped, and the OP is no longer on the site.

Sep 28 16 02:43 pm Link

Photographer

fsp

Posts: 3656

New York, New York, US

so on your front page just make a heading in the bio..... "NOT RECOMENDED" .... n list the names of flakes.

Sep 28 16 03:08 pm Link

Photographer

ChadAlan

Posts: 4254

Los Angeles, California, US

Greg Kolack wrote:
FYI - 4 1/2 year old thread bumped, and the OP is no longer on the site.

Haha, I'm a follower I guess.

Sep 28 16 03:14 pm Link

Photographer

Saitama

Posts: 29

New York, New York, US

ChadAlan wrote:

That sounds like someone who didn't trust your vision. How would she know if the lighting wouldn't produce good results? Is she a photographer?

I occasionally shoot models who are photographers as well, but they trust my vision and that's the way it should be. And oftentimes shooting is about experimenting, and trying different locations if the original one isn't working out.

It sounds like she was making an excuse?

No she has no idea how to use a camera.  I get the feeling she must be one of these flighty and capricious types, because she had no issue with shooting in the evening even before I showed her photos of the brightly lit area I was taking her to.  Now she has zero chance of shooting with me again even though we live 15 minutes apart and have the same off days outside of the weekends.  All I can do is shake my head at the utter lack of foresight on her part.

Sep 29 16 02:07 am Link