Forums > Photography Talk > Just had a model cancel a shoot...

Photographer

DeeEight

Posts: 104

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

that was to happen on thursday, because I refused to let her watch me download the pics off my camera and then decide which pictures I took would be deleted right off the bat. This would have been for a TFx shoot, but I give a LOT of edits and all the raw images to my models, so its not as if they're only getting a handful of pics like a lot of photogs give their models. When she agreed to shoot with me, she did the whole flattery routine about loving my ideas, loving the photos in my portfolio, etc.

Of course when she was told I do my own editing and deleting, and in my own time frame, ALONE... she took to calling my shots crap and my style unprofessional.

Anyone else have this happen? Am I out of line for telling her to essentially (but not so impolitely) bugger off and good luck finding photographers who'll let a model with ONE SINGLE photoshoot to their credit dictate how their art is created to them ?

Jul 10 12 11:25 pm Link

Photographer

Valent Lau

Posts: 130

Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

Usually they will demand that before the shoot because they know most photographers will refuse. I've never had one spring that on me on the day.

Jul 10 12 11:29 pm Link

Photographer

R_Marquez

Posts: 4622

San Francisco, California, US

No need to be rude. Just get over it and move on. No big deal.

Jul 10 12 11:29 pm Link

Photographer

Barry Kidd Photography

Posts: 2521

Red Lion, Pennsylvania, US

Just click NEXT.  Don't fight with them, move on and forget they ever existed.

Jul 10 12 11:30 pm Link

Photographer

Mirror With A Memory

Posts: 287

New York, New York, US

As I always say " If you like me you do me a favor, If you don't like me then you do me 2 favors.

Jul 10 12 11:34 pm Link

Photographer

DeeEight

Posts: 104

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

I was fine with moving on, till after unfriending her and deleting her messages from my inbox, she sends me a message saying how she's gonna have her friend take pics of her, and how awesome they'll be, and then blocks me so i cannot reply.... now i'm just... 'why do i always attract the immature ones?'.

Jul 10 12 11:47 pm Link

Photographer

Jayc Yu

Posts: 526

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Is she asking to sit beside you for the next 8 hours in front of a monitor?

Add: why don't you want her to be present during the sorting and editing process?

Jul 10 12 11:50 pm Link

Photographer

Blue Ash Film Group

Posts: 9538

Cincinnati, Ohio, US

DeeEight wrote:
I was fine with moving on, till after unfriending her and deleting her messages from my inbox, she sends me a message saying how she's gonna have her friend take pics of her, and how awesome they'll be, and then blocks me so i cannot reply.... now i'm just... 'why do i always attract the immature ones?'.

It seems to me like you are both acting juvenile. You aren't doing yourself any favors by starting this thread.

Jul 10 12 11:57 pm Link

Photographer

Essential Form

Posts: 2873

Sedalia, Missouri, US

DeeEight wrote:
I was fine with moving on, till after unfriending her and deleting her messages from my inbox, she sends me a message saying how she's gonna have her friend take pics of her, and how awesome they'll be, and then blocks me so i cannot reply.... now i'm just... 'why do i always attract the immature ones?'.

Friend, you are not doing yourself favors here.  Back away from the computer.

Edit:  BlueAsh and I are simulposting.  The OP should probably note that.

Jul 11 12 12:00 am Link

Photographer

DeeEight

Posts: 104

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

She apparently does... or she seems to think you can just fly through several hundred images in mere mins. And why don't i want her there? Same reason I don't want any of the models I've shot with there. I don't like to rush things, I take several days to a week usually to be happy with the pics, and pick out the ones I wanna edit and shrink down to a size that's uploaded to a profile. I won't even open the images beyond a quick glance until the day after I download them from my camera as a rule.

Jul 11 12 12:00 am Link

Photographer

LA StarShooter

Posts: 1866

Los Angeles, California, US

Many photographers have gone through similar challenges, however, as you may see in posts and threads around here, they don't dwell on it. From the way you presented it, you're in the right, but it's not the kind of victory that feels good. And you don't need anyone to tell you you're right. You know it? Perhaps you want sympathy? Understandable.

You took a stand and the shoot was cancelled. As others have advised it's best to move forward. Yes, move forward to another shoot. Good luck.

Jul 11 12 12:04 am Link

Photographer

DeeEight

Posts: 104

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

LA StarShooter wrote:
Many photographers have gone through similar challenges,

Actually that's pretty much just what I was looking for as an answer... so I know I'm not nuts for having my own standards and sticking to them for how I do my photography (from start to finish).

Jul 11 12 12:13 am Link

Photographer

rfordphotos

Posts: 4875

Antioch, California, US

DeeEight wrote:
Anyone else have this happen? Am I out of line for telling her to essentially (but not so impolitely) bugger off and good luck finding photographers who'll let a model with ONE SINGLE photoshoot to their credit dictate how their art is created to them ?

Have I had someone make a demand I felt was unacceptable that killed a business deal? Yeah, happens all the time. You move on to the next deal.

She will sink or swim on her own, and that is none of your concern. She made a demand you couldnt live with and the deal fell through. Nothing more.

Politely declining her offer was fine, telling her she was out of line was inappropriate.

And I am sure next time you will just move on. It just isnt worth getting worked up smile

Jul 11 12 01:47 am Link

Photographer

photosbydmp

Posts: 3808

Shepparton-Mooroopna, Victoria, Australia

YES ITS HAPPENED TO ME AND I MENTIONED A LONG WALK OFF A SHORT PIER.

Jul 11 12 02:00 am Link

Photographer

photosbydmp

Posts: 3808

Shepparton-Mooroopna, Victoria, Australia

well done more threads about this kind of crazy assed behaviour need to be started.

Jul 11 12 02:01 am Link

Photographer

Joe Miglionico

Posts: 1183

Worcester, Massachusetts, US

A while back, I had a woman who kept telling me how amazing my stuff was and how much she couldn't wait to shoot with me. It was going to be a TF shoot until she told me she planned to sell them through her website. At that point I said, if they are going to be for sale, we would need to work out an agreement because I wanted to be paid some percentage of what she made. From that point she began saying how amateur I was, how I'm no different than her brother who just does snapshots in the basement and how other photographers line up to take photos of her, and give her every single picture on a CD.
Goodbye... don't let the door hit you on the way out...

Jul 11 12 03:00 am Link

Photographer

danielsl

Posts: 1

Nijmegen, Gelderland, Netherlands

This kind of crap happens everywhere.
Over here in Holland the mentality of the models on TFP-base is terrible

Jul 11 12 03:15 am Link

Photographer

SWANKfab

Posts: 70

Newark, New Jersey, US

It's disappointing but consider yourself lucky, she may have been more trouble than she was worth later.

One thing you should consider is how you look to models and how it may be contributing to this behavior.  You said: "This would have been for a TFx shoot, but I give a LOT of edits and all the raw images to my models."    My question to you is...why? 

No professional photographer I know gives all of their RAW files to models, even if it is a TF arrangement.  They have no need for them.  You may even be giving too many finished edits out.  Most photographers supply a fixed number of edits per look/ idea/ concept, etc. and that's that.   You may appear too accommodating and are therefore attracting this behavior from them.   I could be wrong but just a thought.

Jul 11 12 03:34 am Link

Photographer

Erlinda

Posts: 7221

London, England, United Kingdom

She would never work with me then. I don't even let models select photos. I give them whatever I pick. smile

Jul 11 12 03:48 am Link

Photographer

Shot By Adam

Posts: 5936

Las Vegas, Nevada, US

DeeEight wrote:
I was fine with moving on, till after unfriending her and deleting her messages from my inbox, she sends me a message saying how she's gonna have her friend take pics of her, and how awesome they'll be, and then blocks me so i cannot reply.... now i'm just... 'why do i always attract the immature ones?'.

Uhhhh...why WOULD you reply? And you're calling HER immature?

http://s3.amazonaws.com/giles/drama_112708/kettles.jpg

Jul 11 12 03:51 am Link

Photographer

In Balance Photography

Posts: 3372

Boston, Massachusetts, US

DeeEight wrote:
that was to happen on thursday, because I refused to let her watch me download the pics off my camera and then decide which pictures I took would be deleted right off the bat. This would have been for a TFx shoot, but I give a LOT of edits and all the raw images to my models, so its not as if they're only getting a handful of pics like a lot of photogs give their models. When she agreed to shoot with me, she did the whole flattery routine about loving my ideas, loving the photos in my portfolio, etc.

Of course when she was told I do my own editing and deleting, and in my own time frame, ALONE... she took to calling my shots crap and my style unprofessional.

Anyone else have this happen? Am I out of line for telling her to essentially (but not so impolitely) bugger off and good luck finding photographers who'll let a model with ONE SINGLE photoshoot to their credit dictate how their art is created to them ?

This has never happened to me.

Trade is about creating value for both parties. When the other party asks for something, they are telling you something about what they value and don't value. Her request could have meant many things:

1. She values being able to see her mistakes so she can learn from them.
2. She values being able to understand what goes into image selection so that she can become a better model.
3. She thinks it would be "fun" to do it together.
4. She distrusts the photographer's ability to select images that show her off in the best light.
5. She doesn't think the photographer can produce portfolio quality images, but she still thinks the practice would be good.

The fact that this model had only one shoot means that she's going to be learning *fast* - what she thought was good photography last week could now appear not so good after she's been contacted by other photographers and had a chance to see a broader range of images, and been exposed to the influencing opinions of other models and photographers.

The first shoot I scheduled here I happened to get a brand new model with an amazing look and natural skills - it would have been her first shoot too. The shoot got rained out, and rescheduled for about a couple months later. In that month, she shot with some amazing photographers, and by the time our shoot rolled around, she had no business shooting with me. But for the fact that this person was immensely responsible and such a person of her word, our shoot would not have happened - she had no real use for what I was producing by the time our shoot rolled around.

The problem you have now is that you don't know the reasons - was it #1-#3 above, or #4 or #5, and since communication has been cut off, you can't figure out the former.

To figure out the latter - post in critique.

Jul 11 12 03:53 am Link

Photographer

Shot By Adam

Posts: 5936

Las Vegas, Nevada, US

Taken from the OP's profile:

Also I will not work with llamas who insist on being present after the shoot to supervise my pulling images off my camera and immediately deciding which ones I delete, keep, edit, etc. I do my editing in my own time, usually a day or two later, and other than downloading the pics the same day/night as the shoot, I never actually start to look at them until the next day at the earliest. But I also give MORE edits and more raw images than likely any other photographer in the area, so its not like you're going to end up waiting a few weeks to get six images say, either.

Sounds to me like he's butthurt over the matter and is just now wanting to vent to the world to gain some sympathy.

Jul 11 12 03:58 am Link

Photographer

Shot By Adam

Posts: 5936

Las Vegas, Nevada, US

In Balance Photography wrote:
To figure out the latter - post in critique.

+1 million

Jul 11 12 04:00 am Link

Photographer

Jayc Yu

Posts: 526

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Swankorama wrote:
No professional photographer I know gives all of their RAW files

Giving raw photos lessens the photographer's responsibility, who thinks:
"Here are the original negatives. If you dislike my particular cross-processing, you have untouched copies to mix with."
It's unlikely models want to repeat the tedious and time-consuming process of editing, though they might have photographic and retouching skills, seeing how everyone has a camera nowadays.
The photographer might also hope the models would have their own retoucher contacts. How convenient would that be!
I'm speaking of amateur photographers.
This doesn't quite apply to the industry, as a professional photographer would definitely have a professional retoucher in the pipeline, and the hired professional model wouldn't demand to be in such time-consuming tasks which she will not be paid while she has other scheduled shoots.

Jul 11 12 08:47 am Link

Photographer

DeeEight

Posts: 104

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Erlinda wrote:
She would never work with me then. I don't even let models select photos. I give them whatever I pick. smile

Ok when I said all the raw images, I should have said, all the original unedited/unresized jpeg images... as to the photos I choose to edit... no i don't let the models select them either, I pick what I liked, and if they don't agree with every photo i liked and edited, they're free to not use them on their own portfolio.

I also know some people on here will just see my posting, look at my profile and then post negative comments or something. I'm fine with that. I've been around the internet a long time, and I'm aware some people only exist to harsh the mellow of others. I'm sorrrry I'm not shooting glamour shots that are super retouched with cleveryly photoshopped in backgrounds. That's just not my thing or interest. I've been happy with the majority of what I've done thus far, as have all the models I've actually worked with, and who all (at this time) want to work with me again.

Jul 11 12 09:19 am Link

Photographer

Mark Salo

Posts: 8374

Olney, Maryland, US

DeeEight wrote:
I was fine with moving on, till after unfriending her and deleting her messages from my inbox, she sends me a message saying how she's gonna have her friend take pics of her, and how awesome they'll be, and then blocks me so i cannot reply.... now i'm just... 'why do i always attract the immature ones?'.

Why would you want to reply?  What could you say other than to tell her that her friend is a lousy photographer?

Jul 11 12 09:33 am Link

Photographer

DeeEight

Posts: 104

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Mark Salo wrote:
Why would you want to reply?  What could you say other than to tell her that her friend is a lousy photographer?

Just to say, don't ever contact me again maybe? There seems to be a really strong percentage of models on here that won't even try and act professional, even if they're not doing this beyond an hobby thing. I've heard of one local photog who said he has an 80% no-show rate for bookings/casting calls. Also I've seen a great number of models who got profiles approved with the classic girl in mirror holding cellphone cam shot... who approves those things? Photographer profiles get approved my mods who judge the picture quality acceptable enough, yet models don't seem to get held to even a minimal standard. Why is that ?

As to her friend, nope, wouldn't say that. He could be a good photographer, he could be a guy with a point and shoot. I just don't need to hear about it, or anything else she's doing after I politely told her good luck in her modeling and that I wasn't interested in working with her.

Jul 11 12 09:42 am Link

Model

DarcieK

Posts: 10874

Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

I don't demand it, but I do like it when I can sift through pictures and choose which ones I like the best...especially on a TF shoot where it is to benefit both of us.

But, she was being demanding. Just move on and go to the next model.

Jul 11 12 09:47 am Link

Photographer

rp_photo

Posts: 42494

Houston, Texas, US

DeeEight wrote:
that was to happen on thursday, because I refused to let her watch me download the pics off my camera and then decide which pictures I took would be deleted right off the bat.

They would have to come back to house in order to do that with me, as I don't bring a laptop or other USB-capable device to my shoots, and if anything, this is a good reason to not do so.

I do provide models a full online preview hours after their shoot, and on occasion have let them copy images to their computers, but no way would I allow anyone to tell me what to delete (vs. telling me not to use), as I archive all images not deleted in-camera.

DarcieK wrote:
I don't demand it, but I do like it when I can sift through pictures and choose which ones I like the best...especially on a TF shoot where it is to benefit both of us.

But, she was being demanding. Just move on and go to the next model.

And I say a few hours after the shoot at your own pace and leisure is the best way to go. Right after the shoot is the wrong time as people are often tired and have other things to do.

Jul 11 12 09:56 am Link

Photographer

Innovative Imagery

Posts: 2815

Los Angeles, California, US

We go over the images as we create them in small batches, if we are shooting tethered.  That is how we direct the shoot.    Otherwise, they just get a small set of proofs to make their selection or choose to go with mine.

Jul 11 12 09:59 am Link

Photographer

Digital Hands

Posts: 928

Milton, Ontario, Canada

I thought showing the model via the camera screen is sufficient, doesn't it?

Do the model need to see all 240 images and select 5 of her favourites in 15 min?

All we know is that the model only needs 3-5 amazing photos therefore I give her 10-12 images and she can choose the images she likes.

Jul 11 12 10:03 am Link

Photographer

Abbitt Photography

Posts: 11721

Oakland Acres, Iowa, US

DeeEight wrote:
'why do i always attract the immature ones?'.

It probably has to do with who you are making your offers to and what those offers are.  I'm not criticizing you.  I'm the same.   For what I do, working through and agency or hiring top notch, proven, independent models, doesn't make sense, so that means contacting newer, less experienced models.  That in turn means I get to work with some really wonderful models that I can afford, but contacting newbies also means a lot of dropped communications, cancelations and ridiculous expectations.

My attitude now is to make alternative plans for my time, expecting that most will cancel and to see it as a pleasant surprise when they actually follow through.

Jul 11 12 10:04 am Link

Model

A M Y B

Posts: 127

Providence, Rhode Island, US

DeeEight wrote:
that was to happen on thursday, because I refused to let her watch me download the pics off my camera and then decide which pictures I took would be deleted right off the bat. This would have been for a TFx shoot, but I give a LOT of edits and all the raw images to my models, so its not as if they're only getting a handful of pics like a lot of photogs give their models. When she agreed to shoot with me, she did the whole flattery routine about loving my ideas, loving the photos in my portfolio, etc.

Of course when she was told I do my own editing and deleting, and in my own time frame, ALONE... she took to calling my shots crap and my style unprofessional.

Anyone else have this happen? Am I out of line for telling her to essentially (but not so impolitely) bugger off and good luck finding photographers who'll let a model with ONE SINGLE photoshoot to their credit dictate how their art is created to them ?

There's a line out the door to replace her, don't waste your time on it! there are plenty of REASONABLE models here on the site, myself (hopefully) included who don't flake, request obnoxious amounts of money or specialties, or -for that matter- act like our butts don't stink. if she doesn't know she is easily replacable, she will soon with that attitude.

Jul 11 12 10:06 am Link

Photographer

SASSY CAT PHOTOGRAPHY

Posts: 14

Sterling Heights, Michigan, US

NEXT model....Move on and forget that one

Jul 11 12 10:12 am Link

Model

Beach Baby

Posts: 38

Wilmington, North Carolina, US

I would never ask that of a photog. Usually they send me most of the raw images except for blurry or downright horrible:) They let me pick 4 or 5 and then they add their top pics and send me really awesome edits. I do like to see the raw images to look through on TF's so I know what poses worked and what facial expressions are totally bad. Otherwise I'm really easy going and both parties walk away feeling they have gained from the shoot. When I say I like someone's work I really do. I don't know why a model would feel the need to blow smoke up someones bum..if you don't think their work is good..don't negotiate a shoot. TF is still a business deal, the Model and Photog are just getting paid with images, I think it should always be conducted as a business deal. I think you did the right thing and no worries, there will be more models.

Jul 11 12 10:14 am Link

Photographer

Dan K Photography

Posts: 5466

STATEN ISLAND, New York, US

I guess everyone has there own way. Losing shoots for stuff like this seems wasteful to me.

I just finished doing a shoot. I loaded lightroom sat the model down and had her go through the photos and pick her favs and the ones she hated (1 for hate 5 for fave). While she did that I cleaned up the studio.

I do this about  50% of the time. I am never asked by the model. I don't see the problem with it.

Jul 11 12 10:15 am Link

Photographer

DeeEight

Posts: 104

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Digital Hands wrote:
I thought showing the model via the camera screen is sufficient, doesn't it?

Do the model need to see all 240 images and select 5 of her favourites in 15 min?

All we know is that the model only needs 3-5 amazing photos therefore I give her 10-12 images and she can choose the images she likes.

I often show the model the shots on the camera screen as we're shooting... its how it was discovered on one shoot, that the flash was brightening her neon pink poka dot panties she had on under the skirt of her corset, with how she was posing occassionally... which led to her learning how she positioned her hands was important, and also not wearing pink poka dot underwear with a black skirt and black corset to photoshoots in the future was a good iddea.

I usually give about 3 edited samples for every 50 pictures shot. By sample I mean among other things, they're most all in a size uploadable to here (with its 800kb limit) or that they can use on their tumblr/twitter or other profile accounts and that could still be seen thru a dial-up internet account in less than a fortnight.

Jul 11 12 10:20 am Link

Photographer

DeeEight

Posts: 104

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

A M Y - B E T H  -- wrote:
There's a line out the door to replace her, don't waste your time on it! there are plenty of REASONABLE llamas here on the site, myself (hopefully) included who don't flake, request obnoxious amounts of money or specialties, or -for that matter- act like our butts don't stink. if she doesn't know she is easily replacable, she will soon with that attitude.

I tried to politely (as we were discussing why i didn't want to do what she was asking) explain to her that none of the llamas I've worked with so far (and they're getting booked to do actual PUBLISHED books, or runways, or pinup calendars, etc) have demanded to be present for editing/deleting, and that I do have other llamas waiting for me to have time available to shoot them, but she wasn't hearing any of it. She was tooo good for me (she has a total of ONE photoshoot with ONE photographer who wasn't like, her bf with a point

Jul 11 12 10:31 am Link

Model

DarcieK

Posts: 10874

Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

rp_photo wrote:

DeeEight wrote:
that was to happen on thursday, because I refused to let her watch me download the pics off my camera and then decide which pictures I took would be deleted right off the bat.

They would have to come back to house in order to do that with me, as I don't bring a laptop or other USB-capable device to my shoots, and if anything, this is a good reason to not do so.

I do provide models a full online preview hours after their shoot, and on occasion have let them copy images to their computers, but no way would I allow anyone to tell me what to delete (vs. telling me not to use), as I archive all images not deleted in-camera.


And I say a few hours after the shoot at your own pace and leisure is the best way to go. Right after the shoot is the wrong time as people are often tired and have other things to do.

True.

Usually it's just the photographer showing me the images between wardrobe changes, and I'll just sift through them to see how they turned out.

Only once have I sat beside someone to pick out photos right after a shoot. This was like the third time I shot with this guy though and he is a friend of mine so it was all fine dandy. And it only took us an hour to pick the images we both agreed on.

Jul 11 12 10:33 am Link

Photographer

Erlinda

Posts: 7221

London, England, United Kingdom

DeeEight wrote:
Ok when I said all the raw images, I should have said, all the original unedited/unresized jpeg images... as to the photos I choose to edit... no i don't let the models select them either, I pick what I liked, and if they don't agree with every photo i liked and edited, they're free to not use them on their own portfolio.

I also know some people on here will just see my posting, look at my profile and then post negative comments or something. I'm fine with that. I've been around the internet a long time, and I'm aware some people only exist to harsh the mellow of others. I'm sorrrry I'm not shooting glamour shots that are super retouched with cleveryly photoshopped in backgrounds. That's just not my thing or interest. I've been happy with the majority of what I've done thus far, as have all the models I've actually worked with, and who all (at this time) want to work with me again.

I'm sorry are you telling me my photos are super retouched? I got your first paragraph just fine, second one doesn't see to make sense to me. Lol


Ohhh man I'm having one of those slow moments today. Geeez having them a lot today lol

I've had models ask to see the photos while on my camera during a shoot I sometimes say okay other times I say no. The ones I say no to are the ones that are experienced and know what they are doing and don't need to see their mistakes to improve during a shoot not to mention camera battery dies like that.

If the model is new. I try and keep a few photos in mind while shooting her so when the MUA or hair stylist is doing little touch ups I go to the photos and show her what she's doing wrong and how she can fix it.

But I never had a model sit beside me while I uploading them on my computer.Tthat's just weird to me hmm

Jul 11 12 10:36 am Link