Forums > General Industry > Question to the Photographers

Photographer

AJ_In_Atlanta

Posts: 12865

Atlanta, Georgia, US

DougBPhoto wrote:

Alivia,

you may get a more accurate answer from paid models who have worked with many photographers rather than concluding what is normal from a very narrow sample of photographers.

I don't think a very narrow sample of models is better.

The majority of actual working models are never hired by professional photographers.  Clients hire both or peers and friends trade shoot to maintain their books and work on creative ideas.  If a model needs images they are best served to hire a professional and get exactly what they want.  Otherwise there will always have an element of chance about the collaboration, sometimes it may be exactly what both are looking for and sometimes a compromise.

Oct 05 12 11:29 am Link

Photographer

The Model Zone

Posts: 74

Chicago, Illinois, US

That's a good question, I was just thinking about it! Me being the nice guy that I am, will give away the images so that they will also appear as advertisement on the Models profile...More exposure..he he get it!

Oct 05 12 12:54 pm Link

Model

Kelleth

Posts: 2531

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

With paid shoots, sometimes you'll get photos from the photographer as well but that's completely at their discretion. Don't expect them. You are not owed anything but the money agreed upon.

Oct 05 12 08:38 pm Link

Model

CamiAnn

Posts: 794

Las Vegas, Nevada, US

I have always gotten photos along with the pay if I wanted them...maybe I have just worked with really generous photographers, but I never even had to ask...at the very least, a tear sheet for what the shoot is for would be something to ask for, if its being published.  Just from my own experience.

Oct 05 12 08:53 pm Link

Photographer

Jim Cookfair

Posts: 245

Buffalo, New York, US

If I pay for a shoot and the model is outstanding and cool, she will have the offer to get some images on top of the cash.  bonus.  I also paid a tf model just because she went above and beyond...

Oct 05 12 09:04 pm Link

Photographer

ontherocks

Posts: 22830

Salem, Oregon, US

on a TF shoot i let the model choose from a proofing CD/gallery. when i pay the model i choose. also when i pay the model it's what i want to shoot (assuming i have a preference). but each photographer does it differently so the answer is "it depends". i've seen posts from models who get paid who said that most of their portfolio was from those paid shoots.

i also have paid models who do TF with me partly because we can shoot some of what they want and they can get images.

Oct 05 12 09:21 pm Link

Photographer

FotoMark

Posts: 2978

Oxnard, California, US

Alivia Autumn wrote:
OP:

Those of you that hire models, I have a question.

All of my work has been TF.

I'm at the point where I am being offered paid work, however my port is still quite small.

My question is when paying for work from a model, I'd assume that no photos would be traded.  Or does this depend on situation?

Edit:

I am not looking for new photos, if I wanted new photos I would be trading with folks I'm familiar working with.  This question is posed at new people who I have no prior work experience with.  And to reiterate, the question is posed for people approaching me, not the other way around.

The coin toss is I may benefit from the photos, who knows, that was the point in saying my port is small. However after looking at the port of the person in question, I don't know if it's worth my time negotiating prior to seeing the finished product.

From what I'm gathering the photos are the method of payment for trades, and currency is also a method of payment, but rarely you get both.  Thanks.

This isn't a rant, this isn't trying to eat my cake, this is a simple question from a model transitioning from trades to paid assignments.

Be upfront and ask if you can buy the photos that you like?

Oct 05 12 09:26 pm Link

Photographer

Cal

Posts: 710

Santa Ana, California, US

I use the pics from a paid shoot to tip the llama.
If she did a lousy job, no pics.
If she did a great job I give her several pics.

It all depends on the llama.

Oct 05 12 09:36 pm Link

Photographer

E H

Posts: 674

Calgary, Alberta, Canada

This isn't a rant, this isn't trying to eat my cake, this is a simple question from a model transitioning from trades to paid assignments.


This is the reason why you may want to pay for better portfolio shots and continuing to do so,,, getting better and better shots...Better the shots the more money and jobs you will get... joan Smalls/ Karlie Kloss or Abbey Lee Kershaw did not get to where they are on : a TF or fill in with what I get paid in images or an unprinted portfolio.
Just trying to help you get more and better jobs.
All the best

Oct 05 12 11:23 pm Link

Model

Alivia Autumn

Posts: 610

Seattle, Washington, US

E H wrote:
This isn't a rant, this isn't trying to eat my cake, this is a simple question from a model transitioning from trades to paid assignments.


This is the reason why you may want to pay for better portfolio shots and continuing to do so,,, getting better and better shots...Better the shots the more money and jobs you will get... joan Smalls/ Karlie Kloss or Abbey Lee Kershaw did not get to where they are on : a TF or fill in with what I get paid in images or an unprinted portfolio.
Just trying to help you get more and better jobs.
All the best

I get it and that makes absolute sense, but personally I'm not trying to get more paid shoots or put myself out there career wise. I do it cause it's fun, yet I work full time and am a mother so mytime is limited. The question is for people approaching me... Which is happening rather frequently.

Oct 05 12 11:31 pm Link

Model

Alivia Autumn

Posts: 610

Seattle, Washington, US

E H wrote:
This isn't a rant, this isn't trying to eat my cake, this is a simple question from a model transitioning from trades to paid assignments.


This is the reason why you may want to pay for better portfolio shots and continuing to do so,,, getting better and better shots...Better the shots the more money and jobs you will get... joan Smalls/ Karlie Kloss or Abbey Lee Kershaw did not get to where they are on : a TF or fill in with what I get paid in images or an unprinted portfolio.
Just trying to help you get more and better jobs.
All the best

I also appreciate the reply. Thank you.

Oct 05 12 11:32 pm Link

Photographer

E H

Posts: 674

Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Alivia Autumn wrote:

I also appreciate the reply. Thank you.

No problem, trying to help
Mom,kids, full-time job or just doing it for fun,,, all the same thing,,, better portfolio = more you'll do and make...

Oct 05 12 11:50 pm Link

Photographer

DougBPhoto

Posts: 38935

Portland, Oregon, US

AJScalzitti wrote:
I don't think a very narrow sample of models is better.

The majority of actual working models are never hired by professional photographers.  Clients hire both or peers and friends trade shoot to maintain their books and work on creative ideas.  If a model needs images they are best served to hire a professional and get exactly what they want.  Otherwise there will always have an element of chance about the collaboration, sometimes it may be exactly what both are looking for and sometimes a compromise.

The majority of actual working models, believe it or not, are probably smart enough to understand what they do and do not receive from photographers, and are probably capable of articulating it to another model.   I realize this may be unthinkable, but I've been told on good authority that many models DO, in fact, have brains, and know how to use them.

You might also want to expand a bit on exactly who you define as "actual working models", because it sounds kinda like you're discounting a great many models who are working and getting paid... even if, gasp, there isn't a business/client paying.

In other words, if there isn't a business/client paying both the model and photographer, those people are not "actual" working models or actual "professional photographers".

I guess everyone else on both sides of the camera is just playing pretend.

Fantastic job of pontification, but I don't think you really helped shed nearly as much light on the subject for the OP as you think you did.

Oct 05 12 11:58 pm Link

Photographer

MN camera

Posts: 1861

Saint Paul, Minnesota, US

Alivia Autumn wrote:
The problem with negotiating, is possibly not liking the images.  I've done a couple TF shoots where I didn't like anything.  Sounds like it's standard to not receive photos for paid shoots that's all I'm asking.

Thanks all

I think the answer here is obvious.  If you want to call the tune, maybe hiring a photographer to do your idea explicitly is what you might consider.  Asking me to pay you to do only your idea - not going to happen.

Oct 06 12 06:47 am Link

Model

Alivia Autumn

Posts: 610

Seattle, Washington, US

Thanks all, gave him my rates, asked about the photos, and he said my rates were reasonable that providing photos wouldn't be an issue.

Thanks for the advice.  I guess communication is key.

Oct 06 12 10:57 pm Link

Photographer

imcFOTO

Posts: 579

Bothell, Washington, US

Alivia Autumn wrote:
OP:

My question is when paying for work from a model, I'd assume that no photos would be traded.  Or does this depend on situation?

I don't think there is a rule (although some like to insist there is). Sure, there's a lot more incentive for a photographer to hand over photos for a TF shoot - that's their side of the commitment (although even there, you'll find a wide variety of what is offered).

I have only done a few paid shoots so I speak from limited experience, but I've always offered them (and yes, my hope is to keep the cost down). I've found the more experienced models tend to include a few shots (sometimes their choice perhaps) as part of the deal.

Other than as a negotiating ploy I think it's short-sighted of the photographer not to give some edited shots. After all,  if the model was worth hiring, isn't it worth something to have some of your work in her portfolio? I also figure, once you've done the work of editing shots, it really costs you nothing to send a few to the model (whether it was agreed or not).

Isn't goodwill still worth something - never mind the free advertising if the model uses them in their portfolio (and I do always ask that I be credited if she does).

Again it all comes down to communication and coming to an amicable agreement preferably before all the work has been done.

Oct 06 12 11:12 pm Link

Photographer

imcFOTO

Posts: 579

Bothell, Washington, US

Alivia Autumn wrote:
I guess communication is key.

Absolutely! :-)

Oct 06 12 11:19 pm Link

Model

Alivia Autumn

Posts: 610

Seattle, Washington, US

imcFOTO wrote:

I don't think there is a rule (although some like to insist there is). Sur, there's a lot more incentive for a photographer to hand over photos for a TF shoot - that's their side of the commitment (although even there, you'll find a wide variety it what is offered).

I have only done a few paid shoots so I speak from limited experience, but I've always offered them (and yes, my hope is to keep the cost down). I've found the more experienced models tend to include a few shots (sometimes their choice perhaps) as part of the deal.

Other than as a negotiating ploy I think it's short-sighted of the photographer not to give some edited shots. After all,  if the model was worth hiring, isn't it worth something to have some of your work in her portfolio? I also figure, once you've done the work of editing shots, it really costs you nothing to send a few to the model (whether it was agreed or not).

Isn't goodwill still worth something - never mind the free advertising if the model uses them in their portfolio (and I do always ask that I be credited if she does).

Again it all comes down to communication and coming to an amicable agreement preferably before all the work has been done.

Wish all photographers had your mindset, especially the ones here.  Thankfully I've never had a problem with photographers acting uppity in my city, but damn these threads can be brutal!

Oct 07 12 12:32 am Link

Photographer

BlueMoonPics

Posts: 4463

New York, New York, US

I've done group shoots where I paid and I still gave the models images of their choice.  I figure it helps me out in getting my name around, plus some of the models appreciate it.

I've done stock shoots where I offer the models images too even though the images are very commercial.  I figure it makes them happy and possible repeat models for my work.

I've gotten reduction in rates because I offer images back to the model if they like my work.

I don't have a hard rule that if I pay I don't give out images.  In my point of view it's all negotiable.

Oct 07 12 07:17 am Link

Photographer

Aaron - photographer

Posts: 35

London, England, United Kingdom

I have no problem letting a model i've hired pick out a few images for her portfolio or personal use.  But the key word here is "a few".  When i do a TF, i contract for 5 images.  I'll almost always provide 7 to 10, but 5 is the stipulated trade.  If I hire a model, i'd be happy to offer up 3 or 4 or even 5 images.  I guess it really all depends on the photographer.

Oct 07 12 07:57 am Link

Photographer

Shot By Adam

Posts: 6219

Las Vegas, Nevada, US

I'm all about keeping everyone happy. If I keep everyone happy then I get booked more, the models work better, the resulting images look better, and everyone gets paid work again.

When I book the models I tell them that I always will do my best to give them copies of the used photos from the shoot that the client has chosen, there are never any guarantees. If the model works out great I'm more than happy to ask the client if I can release a few to the models.

Usually though, when a client comes to me and asks me to hire a model or two for their shoot, I always ask that in addition to paying them if I can give them a few photos from the shoot. It's been very rare when I've ever had a client say no to this and I always promise that the images will not be distributed until the photos from the shoot go public from the client. So when their ad gets published or the images wind up on their website catalog, etc., that's when I give the photos to the models, and never sooner.

The only recent exception to this was that I had hired two models for a client and both did a great job from my perspective. After the the shoot I sent over the proofs to the client and got an email back telling me I could give images to one model and not the other. I later found out that the client discovered during the shoot one of the models was tweeting on every break things like, "I'm on a shoot and have to wear these tank tops with this stupid logo on it" and "I'm so glad I'm done here soon...client is a dweeb". The other model actually sent myself and the client a nice thank-you email after the shoot. Guess which one got photos and which one didn't?

Oct 07 12 08:32 am Link

Photographer

Art Silva

Posts: 9526

Santa Barbara, California, US

Posted rates are basically starting points for negotiations unless it's stated as a solid rate, but then again there are exception to the rules but that's up to the model in this case.

I like to think that I get good rate quotes from great established models I've worked with and in return I like to throw a couple images their way whether they use them in their port or website or not, if they do then it's a plus for both of us especially if that model gets lots of traffic to her work it benefits me as well.

Oct 07 12 11:43 pm Link

Photographer

Neil Snape

Posts: 9473

Paris, Île-de-France, France

If I was to pay a model for pictures outside of the client paying, it would be for a specific reason. IF I was asking and paying then there would be every reason why I want to shoot with that person, not because I need to but want to.

If the person being paid thought the pictures were good and asked to use the pix for self promo then the more cross promotion the better.

I wouldn't feel the responsibility though to have me edit or do the pictures at all for them.

Oct 07 12 11:58 pm Link

Photographer

devpics

Posts: 834

Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

I normally give the model a set of shots two weeks or so after the shoot and a disc when fully edited, though this can vary depending on how keen the model is to have copies. Obviously photgraphers in other circumstances will act differently.

Oct 08 12 12:06 am Link

guide forum

Model

Anna Adrielle

Posts: 18763

Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium

Alivia Autumn wrote:
The problem with negotiating, is possibly not liking the images.  I've done a couple TF shoots where I didn't like anything.  Sounds like it's standard to not receive photos for paid shoots that's all I'm asking.

Thanks all

when you start doing paid shoots, expect that there are going to be pictures of you on the internet that you might hate and that you would never pick yourself.

Oct 08 12 02:05 am Link