Forums > Newbie Forum > I didn't see this on the avoiding scams thread.

Photographer

PBandJ photography

Posts: 25

Aiken, South Carolina, US

I contacted a model who told me that she did a couple of  shoots with someone who would pay her "once the photos and videos are sold."

I tried to tell her she's probably not going to get paid and it's probably a scam and she came back with "oh, I don't think so, they say they want me for another one. And this one is bondage so it'll pay more!"

Why do I feel like I need to contact the fbi, or something. It all seems just so seedy.

Oct 11 12 08:03 pm Link

Photographer

Images by MR

Posts: 7774

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

PBandJ photography wrote:
I contacted a model who told me that she did a couple of  shoots with someone who would pay her "once the photos and videos are sold."

There are a lot of peolpe that only get paid when something sells

PBandJ photography wrote:
Why do I feel like I need to contact the fbi, or something. It all seems just so seedy.

You're going to contact who ?   And honestly what's it got to do with you ?/

Just my thoughts ~ MR

Oct 11 12 08:15 pm Link

Photographer

Bunny 007

Posts: 274

Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom

Images by MR wrote:
[quote=PBandJ what's it got to do with you ?/

I get it... we only offer help/advice "if it's got something to do with us"?

Oct 11 12 08:22 pm Link

Photographer

ThriftyPhoto

Posts: 21

Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

This could go either way.  Researching the photographer would be a great idea before assuming too much.

Oct 11 12 08:23 pm Link

Photographer

Ken Marcus Studios

Posts: 8492

Los Angeles, California, US

I do many shoots like that.

Consider it as a TF and make sure you get copies of the content. Then, if the photos sell, you get a percentage of the sale.

It's not uncommon to do shoots like that.

I don't see it as a scam, unless the photog doesn't keep up to his end of the bargan.

KM

Oct 11 12 08:31 pm Link

Photographer

Fernando L Pacheco

Posts: 936

New York, New York, US

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
I do many shoots like that.

Consider it as a TF and make sure you get copies of the content. Then, if the photos sell, you get a percentage of the sale.

It's not uncommon to do shoots like that.

I don't see it as a scam, unless the photog doesn't keep up to his end of the bargan.

KM

To be fair Ken, I think you hold a lot more sway than the average shooter. If the guy claiming to pay "when it sells" has a track record of selling then the claim is legit. But if it's just someone who's a hobbyist then the model really shouldn't be holding her breath.

Oct 11 12 08:41 pm Link

Photographer

Images by MR

Posts: 7774

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Images by MR wrote:
what's it got to do with you ?/

Bunny 007 wrote:
I get it... we only offer help/advice "if it's got something to do with us"?

I think its best to only offer help / advice when we know all the facts & qualified to do so..

Just my thoughts ~ MR

Oct 11 12 08:45 pm Link

Photographer

Tony KnightHawk Studios

Posts: 1900

Fort Myers Beach, Florida, US

PBandJ photography wrote:
I contacted a model who told me that she did a couple of  shoots with someone who would pay her "once the photos and videos are sold."

I tried to tell her she's probably not going to get paid and it's probably a scam and she came back with "oh, I don't think so, they say they want me for another one. And this one is bondage so it'll pay more!"

Why do I feel like I need to contact the fbi, or something. It all seems just so seedy.

Nice to see you skipped the whole getting all the facts and went right into contacting the fbi.
That's like throwing water on a grease fire.
How about getting an agreement in writing ya know like they do in business.

Oct 11 12 08:56 pm Link

Photographer

Howick Image Studio

Posts: 906

Clifford, Ontario, Canada

PBandJ photography wrote:
I contacted a model who told me that she did a couple of  shoots with someone who would pay her "once the photos and videos are sold."

I tried to tell her she's probably not going to get paid and it's probably a scam and she came back with "oh, I don't think so, they say they want me for another one. And this one is bondage so it'll pay more!"

Why do I feel like I need to contact the fbi, or something. It all seems just so seedy.

I suppose with your logic, all TF** shoots are also scams.  The model only gets paid (after the shoot and with images) IF the photographer shows up, IF the photographer processes the images, and IF the photographer actually delivers them to the model.  Many threads here suggest that is every bit as tenuous a proposition as the one you describe.

Oct 11 12 09:01 pm Link

Photographer

Blue Ash Film Group

Posts: 9544

Cincinnati, Ohio, US

Unless you are leaving out a lot of details, I don't see where the scam part comes in. The photographer isn't asking the model for any money or anything like that. She is being asked to work on spec.; a lot of people in all parts of the creative team have done this on projects. The model can decide for herself if the project is worth it to her. How are you involved again?

Oct 11 12 09:39 pm Link

Photographer

Kent Art Photography

Posts: 2919

Ashford, England, United Kingdom

I wouldn't say it was a scam.  It isn't something I would get involved in, but a lot of people do it, and it seems to work for them.

Oct 12 12 02:23 am Link

Photographer

Marc Pattison

Posts: 6

Walnut Creek, California, US

I get a good laugh from threads like this. Reminds me of the joke..."How many Photographers does it take to screw in a light bulb?" does it really matter? Seems like the only people more opinionated are politicians and even that's debatable.

Oct 12 12 02:39 am Link

Model

Paul Dietz

Posts: 270

Los Angeles, California, US

It can also be called a "differed" agreement... Very common and works well for both parties

Oct 12 12 03:14 am Link

Photographer

B R U N E S C I

Posts: 25319

Bath, England, United Kingdom

I hear a distant clanking of spurs....







Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

Oct 12 12 04:50 am Link

Model

Cole Morrison

Posts: 3958

Portland, Oregon, US

The FBI?

Why, was she underage?

Oct 12 12 04:52 am Link

Photographer

PBandJ photography

Posts: 25

Aiken, South Carolina, US

Whoa! People!

The fbi thing was a joke. 

It just seems to me like they're getting video and pictures of her with the promise of future payments that will never come.

Perhaps what I should have asked is "Is this a common type of agreement?"

Oct 12 12 05:38 am Link

Photographer

Ken Marcus Studios

Posts: 8492

Los Angeles, California, US

PBandJ photography wrote:
Perhaps what I should have asked is "Is this a common type of agreement?"

I believe I answered this for you earlier . . . YES, it is very common to shoot on 'speculation', with the intent of submitting images for possible sale.

It's handled like a TF shoot, but if there is a sale the model participates in the earnings.

KM

Oct 12 12 05:47 am Link

Photographer

Kent Art Photography

Posts: 2919

Ashford, England, United Kingdom

PBandJ photography wrote:
Whoa! People!

The fbi thing was a joke. 

It just seems to me like they're getting video and pictures of her with the promise of future payments that will never come.

Perhaps what I should have asked is "Is this a common type of agreement?"

I got hauled over the coals for suggesting that these sort of agreements don't happen in the real world, but I still maintain that they don't, and it is still my experience that most professional models would laugh at me if I proposed such a thing.

But people do agree to these things, even though I can't see any advantages to anyone except the person paying the fees, who doesn't have to pay the fees, and people do seem happy with these agreements.

I suppose the only exceptions might be some adult-interest websites, where the owner doesn't pay 'models' upfront but pays out on a per-view basis.

Oct 12 12 05:49 am Link

Photographer

Kent Art Photography

Posts: 2919

Ashford, England, United Kingdom

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:

I believe I answered this for you earlier . . . YES, it is very common to shoot on 'speculation', with the intent of submitting images for possible sale.

It's handled like a TF shoot, but if there is a sale the model participates in the earnings.

KM

May I ask how common it is?

Oct 12 12 05:51 am Link

Photographer

D0127H

Posts: 1135

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Oct 12 12 05:56 am Link

Model

Emil T

Posts: 299

Dortmund, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany

OK,
here is my question about this. I was always wondering about the agreement "I sell the photos, you got part of the money", cause I had 1 offer like this too.
So, the questions is - how will I know the real amount of the money that the photographer got for the photos? I mean - he can tell me smaller amount and give me smaller percentage of the money? What are the "rules" in such a case?

Oct 12 12 08:05 am Link

Photographer

M Pandolfo Photography

Posts: 12116

Tampa, Florida, US

Not every arrangement we don't agree with or incorporate as a policy is a scam.

The model told you she's working on Spec. I'm sure you know that's a very common arrangement.

I'm getting a very different vibe from this post.

First, I'm curious why you feel the need to protect any model who is making her own decisions? Second, the fact that you mentioned she would be doing a bondage shoot and used the word "seedy" tells me you're upset about the content she's shooting with another photographer, more than you are the actual arrangement.

Is it possible this is part jealousy/envy and part some view that you feel models (or at least this model) are helpless, vulnerable flowers who aren't equipped to decipher between legitimate offers and "scams" and need a man to take care of them?

Oct 12 12 08:17 am Link

Photographer

PBandJ photography

Posts: 25

Aiken, South Carolina, US

Michael Pandolfo wrote:
Not every arrangement we don't agree with or incorporate as a policy is a scam.

The model told you she's working on Spec. I'm sure you know that's a very common arrangement.

I'm getting a very different vibe from this post.

First, I'm curious why you feel the need to protect any model who is making her own decisions? Second, the fact that you mentioned she would be doing a bondage shoot and used the word "seedy" tells me you're upset about the content she's shooting with another photographer, more than you are the actual arrangement.

Is it possible this is part jealousy/envy and part some view that you feel models (or at least this model) are helpless, vulnerable flowers who aren't equipped to decipher between legitimate offers and "scams" and need a man to take care of them?

*sigh*
I don't know that spec is a common arrangement. that's why I brought it up.
She did two shoots without being paid and is doing a third with the promise of being paid. It seemed to me like she was being taken advantage of.
It sounds like  "the check is in the mail."

That's why I was asking. I am new to this. NEW.

I did not see this addressed in what I sounded to me like a scam.

She, this model in particular. The one I spoke to; Sounds incredibly innocent.

I told her to be careful because that was my first instinct  and then I came here. To ask. I was  asking. Not very eloquently, but there  you go.

Of course I'm jealous. How do I get chicks to pose naked for free? I like naked chicks. That's how I got into photography in the first place; trying to get my wife naked.

Anyway, I'll remember next time I ask a question in the NEWBIE FORUM that it's full of dicks in here and I should choose my words carefully.

Oct 12 12 10:08 am Link

Photographer

Images by MR

Posts: 7774

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

PBandJ photography wrote:
*sigh*
I don't know that spec is a common arrangement. that's why I brought it up.
She did two shoots without being paid and is doing a third with the promise of being paid. It seemed to me like she was being taken advantage of.
It sounds like  "the check is in the mail."

That's why I was asking. I am new to this. NEW.

I did not see this addressed in what I sounded to me like a scam.

She, this model in particular. The one I spoke to; Sounds incredibly innocent.

I told her to be careful because that was my first instinct  and then I came here. To ask. I was  asking. Not very eloquently, but there  you go.

Of course I'm jealous. How do I get chicks to pose naked for free? I like naked chicks. That's how I got into photography in the first place; trying to get my wife naked.

Anyway, I'll remember next time I ask a question in the NEWBIE FORUM that it's full of dicks in here and I should choose my words carefully.

hmm

Oct 12 12 10:24 am Link

Photographer

All Yours Photography

Posts: 2339

Toledo, Ohio, US

Emil T wrote:
OK,
here is my question about this. I was always wondering about the agreement "I sell the photos, you got part of the money", cause I had 1 offer like this too.
So, the questions is - how will I know the real amount of the money that the photographer got for the photos? I mean - he can tell me smaller amount and give me smaller percentage of the money? What are the "rules" in such a case?

Pretty much your only option if you enter this type of arrangement is trust.  The closest to verification you are going to get is checking references with other models he has done this with before to get a feel of whether or not he is trustworthy.

So you can take a leap of faith with this guy or pass and look for more conventional gigs.

Oct 12 12 11:18 am Link

Photographer

Designit - Edward Olson

Posts: 1637

Eureka, California, US

Paul Bradley wrote:
It can also be called a "differed" agreement... Very common and works well for both parties

Deferred. Pronounced dee-furd.

No offense.

Oct 12 12 11:54 am Link

Photographer

Tony KnightHawk Studios

Posts: 1900

Fort Myers Beach, Florida, US

PBandJ photography wrote:
[

...... How do I get chicks to pose naked for free? I like naked chicks. That's how I got into photography in the first place; trying to get my wife naked.

Anyway, I'll remember next time I ask a question in the NEWBIE FORUM that it's full of dicks in here and I should choose my words carefully.

Yes you should use your words more carefully otherwise people may realize exactly what you are all about. New is no excuse for being a complete ____ (feel free to fill in the blank.)_
Talk less listen more and learn something would be my suggestion.

Oct 12 12 12:07 pm Link

Photographer

L2Photography net

Posts: 2539

University City, Missouri, US

In my area the offers come to the models from GWC most even post as paid work then tell the model after that its only if they get paid. So tips I try to give models. Look at the photographers work do they have any tear sheets.
I had one model tell me she worked with a photographer on MM because he had been published. LOL I looked at his port it was full of fake photo shopped magazine covers. lol

Oct 12 12 12:20 pm Link

Photographer

PBandJ photography

Posts: 25

Aiken, South Carolina, US

Tony KnightHawk Studios wrote:

Yes you should use your words more carefully otherwise people may realize exactly what you are all about. New is no excuse for being a complete ____ (feel free to fill in the blank.)_
Talk less listen more and learn something would be my suggestion.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Oct 12 12 01:18 pm Link

Model

SweetGirlyGirl2

Posts: 57

Honolulu, Hawaii, US

Videos bother me.
It's not Art. It's annoying, but I know this is also a market for porn, so it is what it is.
And I've also heard of this before, once something sells, like clips for sale or something, then the model will get a cut.
Not something I'd do, but hey, whatever rocks your socks off.

Oct 12 12 03:50 pm Link

Photographer

PBandJ photography

Posts: 25

Aiken, South Carolina, US

Well, I hope this girl gets paid and is doing something she enjoys.

Oct 12 12 04:35 pm Link

Photographer

Fotographia Fantastique

Posts: 17326

Lebanon, New Hampshire, US

Fernando L Pacheco wrote:

To be fair Ken, I think you hold a lot more sway than the average shooter. If the guy claiming to pay "when it sells" has a track record of selling then the claim is legit. But if it's just someone who's a hobbyist then the model really shouldn't be holding her breath.

Yes, but just because they shouldn't be holding their breath doesn't mean it's a scam. There's a difference between 'unlikely' and 'fraud'.

Oct 12 12 05:07 pm Link

Photographer

A M Johnson

Posts: 8024

Las Vegas, Nevada, US

I shoot models on spec occasionally. I turn the prints into cash once in a while.

I don't see a problem as long as the photographer has a business plan in place and knows how to market the media.

Oct 12 12 05:18 pm Link

guide forum

Photographer

Rays Fine Art

Posts: 6315

New York, New York, US

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
I do many shoots like that.

Consider it as a TF and make sure you get copies of the content. Then, if the photos sell, you get a percentage of the sale.

It's not uncommon to do shoots like that.

I don't see it as a scam, unless the photog doesn't keep up to his end of the bargan.

KM

+1

If it were likely that this was, indeed, a scam, I would agree with contacting the appropriate authorities, but it might be wise to learn more about how internet modeling/photography actually works before jumping to that conclusion.

If I have a project that I feel has a small possibility of producing a profit, such as my on-line marketing spaces for wall art, prints and calendars on RedBubble or ImageKind and if the model is willing to work with me on an ongoing basis (It's not worth the bookkeeping otherwise) I will usually sometimes offer, if nothing else as a gesture of appreciation.

And too, models particularly new models, will often ask for some sort of share of income on TF shoots.

Oct 12 12 06:36 pm Link

Photographer

Blue Ash Film Group

Posts: 9544

Cincinnati, Ohio, US

PBandJ photography wrote:
*sigh*
I don't know that spec is a common arrangement. that's why I brought it up.
She did two shoots without being paid and is doing a third with the promise of being paid. It seemed to me like she was being taken advantage of.
It sounds like  "the check is in the mail."

That's why I was asking. I am new to this. NEW.

I did not see this addressed in what I sounded to me like a scam.

She, this llama in particular. The one I spoke to; Sounds incredibly innocent.

I told her to be careful because that was my first instinct  and then I came here. To ask. I was  asking. Not very eloquently, but there  you go.

Of course I'm jealous. How do I get chicks to pose naked for free? I like naked chicks. That's how I got into photography in the first place; trying to get my wife naked.

Anyway, I'll remember next time I ask a question in the NEWBIE FORUM that it's full of dicks in here and I should choose my words carefully.

Why are you calling the people who have responded in this thread a name? People have given you honest opinions here and nobody has attacked you. If you expect  that every time you post something on the internet everybody is going to agree with you, then you are in for a frustrating experience.

Oct 12 12 07:03 pm Link

Photographer

howard r

Posts: 513

Los Angeles, California, US

the reality is that there are a lot of self righteous dicks on here who seem to live for jumping on anyone who poorly words anything ever. you asked a question on the newbie forum about something that concerned you and if you wade thru the smug bullshit, i think you got your answer.

why it has to be such an ordeal, i don't know. that's just model mayhem for you . . .

Oct 12 12 07:14 pm Link

Model

Emil T

Posts: 299

Dortmund, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany

All Yours Photography wrote:
Pretty much your only option if you enter this type of arrangement is trust.  The closest to verification you are going to get is checking references with other models he has done this with before to get a feel of whether or not he is trustworthy.

So you can take a leap of faith with this guy or pass and look for more conventional gigs.

Well, OK than smile Thank you for the answer, I assumed something like that, but wanted to ask for being sure smile

Oct 13 12 12:28 am Link

Photographer

PBandJ photography

Posts: 25

Aiken, South Carolina, US

Blue Ash Film Group wrote:

Why are you calling the people who have responded in this thread a name? People have given you honest opinions here and nobody has attacked you. If you expect  that every time you post something on the internet everybody is going to agree with you, then you are in for a frustrating experience.

I was responding to that question.
 

I was making  a general statement about the forums here.

Oct 13 12 05:42 am Link

Photographer

PBandJ photography

Posts: 25

Aiken, South Carolina, US

howard r wrote:
the reality is that there are a lot of self righteous dicks on here who seem to live for jumping on anyone who poorly words anything ever. you asked a question on the newbie forum about something that concerned you and if you wade thru the smug bullshit, i think you got your answer.

why it has to be such an ordeal, i don't know. that's just model mayhem for you . . .

That^^^^

Oct 13 12 05:43 am Link