Hair Stylist
Julie L Hill
Posts: 2
Key West, Florida, US
I am so annoyed by unprofessional behavior. I have had a couple of models no show on two different occasions. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to avoid this or maybe other suggestions on how to filter unreliable models. Time is money and this is costing me.
Model
Julia Steel
Posts: 2474
Sylvania, Ohio, US
check references!!! or book with me!! i always show up  lol
Model
A M Y B
Posts: 127
Providence, Rhode Island, US
Caustic Disco wrote:
check references!!! or book with me!! i always show up lol +1 here too lol
Hair Stylist
Julie L Hill
Posts: 2
Key West, Florida, US
Good idea  . I wish MM had a reference or rating section on profiles.
Photographer
Jay Farrell
Posts: 13408
Nashville, Tennessee, US
Check credits and references, and go with your gut, on how they conduct themselves in the communication process. You need to establish criteria of your own as far as follow up requirements, and have a phone number. No follow up or no answer, no shoot. Usually those with a lacking portfolio or work experience are a higher risk.
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
Julie L Hill wrote:
I am so annoyed by unprofessional behavior. I have had a couple of models no show on two different occasions. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to avoid this or maybe other suggestions on how to filter unreliable models. Time is money and this is costing me. I think true "experience" is a deciding factor -- models who flake won't last long enough to become experienced. Unfortunately, there is no standard definition for "experience", so don't trust what the model says. Look at her portfolio -- has she worked with several different photographers?
(I don't put a lot of credence on the quality of the images in her portfolio -- my style is unique enough that the image quality isn't that important to me. Instead, I just like to see a model who keeps busy -- it's that experience thing mentioned above).
Checking references is very useful. Here's what you can do:
... Build good relationships with your local photographic community.
... Ask your local guys for references, as in "What can you tell me about working with
Mary Model"?
... Drop a line to the people credited in her portfolio.
For me, the key is to build those relationships, because people who know you are more likely to respond to your requests.
Make sure that the model is appropriately compensated. If doing a TF*, does the model have a reasonable expectation of receiving images that are better than the ones she already has?
Be sure to check out the photographer, too. In my mind, the photographer is the leader for the team. Some photographers have a better "flake ratio" than others, even when they are working with the same pool of models. Work with the photographers with a good track record.
Don't invest a lot of time & energy on a model who has no track record with you. Sometimes, the value of a TF* session is not the resulting images; it's getting to know potential future collaborators.
Good luck.
Photographer
Rob Photosby
Posts: 4810
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Promptness of communication is one good indicator. Slow communication is a useful but imperfect indicator of unreliability and lack of interest.
Photographer
Lee Nutter
Posts: 160
Phnom Penh, Phnom Penh, Cambodia
Julie L Hill wrote:
I am so annoyed by unprofessional behavior. I have had a couple of models no show on two different occasions. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to avoid this or maybe other suggestions on how to filter unreliable models. Time is money and this is costing me. Cross posting from another thread:
Lee Nutter wrote:
My flake rate is near zero these days, but it hasn't always been that way. It's been a frustrating journey, but you do live and learn. Here's my tips, they'll somewhat overlap what's already been said, but they might be useful to someone, and might help get responses in the first place and decrease the flake rate at the same time:
1) be up front about expectations.
2) have a concept in mind when you contact a model.
3) personalize your messages where possible. We've probably all got that template we reuse, but switch it up a little and make each message personal.
4) when they've shown interest, offer your phone number. Most, but not all, serious models offer theirs in return.
5) unless absolutely necessary, don't book your shoots too far in advanced. One week seems to be the sweet spot for me, two weeks max.
6) be consistent with your replies. You can't always get back to them within a few minutes, but try for a 24 hours turn around.
7) MOST IMPORTANTLY: contact the model the day prior to the shoot, reminding them of what's been discussed and offering to discuss any issues via email or phone.
8) offer the model references. Especially for new models, this seems to calm nerves. I honestly don't know if my references have ever been used as I've never checked, but I always offer them for the model's peace of mind.
9) if someone has flaked on you once, they'll probably do it again. DON'T reward disrespectful behavior. Unless the excuse is absolutely legitimate (it's usually obvious) then move on. Some models are simply not worth the effort.
In my experience, it gets easier to sniff out flakes I'm more selective these days so I suppose that helps too, but I'm quick to offer potential flakes an easy out so I don't waste anybody's time.
Photographer
ZEPhoto
Posts: 191
Los Angeles, California, US
Lee Nutter wrote:
2) have a concept in mind when you contact a model. On topic question: I've got, what I think, is a great concept for a shoot. I've approached 5, yes, 5 models on MM to shoot it and all of them flaked (I didn't get the grandmother excuse once, all of them used "I woke up feeling sick").
I blame myself, this isn't a "screw models" post. I'm working on a TF basis and my port isn't where I need it to be yet. Ok, fine.
However, my question is this: I have now shared a relatively unique concept shoot in detail to 5 models who didn't pull through. What control do I have over that specific idea? The answer is none.
The solution I had was to set up test shoots first before sharing concepts. That has not worked yet either.
My gut feeling right now is that until I get clients that pay me, so I can pay the models, MM is not going to be a place to get talent. I'll have to do it the old fashioned, person to person networking way.
Unless I'm completely missing the boat, which is always a possibility.
Model
Lila McGreggor
Posts: 19
Nashville, Tennessee, US
As a model with limited experience, when i do things for modeling im almost crazy about leaving on time or early. i pack my items hours or a day in advance, depending on what i'm taking, and double and even triple check. Because i know that no matter how fabulous my pictures are this could make or break a deal.
I was told when going into a gig you treat it as a job, not just for fun. A go-see is an interview and the shoot or runway is the job. Even if you are not getting paid you do this out of courtesy.
Photographer
ZEPhoto
Posts: 191
Los Angeles, California, US
Catey Lamberth wrote:
As a model with limited experience, when i do things for modeling im almost crazy about leaving on time or early. i pack my items hours or a day in advance, depending on what i'm taking, and double and even triple check. Because i know that no matter how fabulous my pictures are this could make or break a deal.
I was told when going into a gig you treat it as a job, not just for fun. A go-see is an interview and the shoot or runway is the job. Even if you are not getting paid you do this out of courtesy. Want to come to LA? I'd love to be wrong about my post.
Model
Lila McGreggor
Posts: 19
Nashville, Tennessee, US
Not yet. I need to finish high school first haha. GEDs dont look fabulous on resumes lol. Maybe one day though. Though im sure there are tons of models like me. The unprofessionals i hope are the exception.
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 6209
San Diego, California, US
Julie L Hill wrote:
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to avoid this or maybe other suggestions on how to filter unreliable models. Time is money and this is costing me. Yeah, work only with models that have been referred to you by someone you actually KNOW. That way, if they flake, you can still go beat your friend's ass.
Photographer
Lee Nutter
Posts: 160
Phnom Penh, Phnom Penh, Cambodia
Zombie Eye Photography wrote:
On topic question: I've got, what I think, is a great concept for a shoot. I've approached 5, yes, 5 models on MM to shoot it and all of them flaked (I didn't get the grandmother excuse once, all of them used "I woke up feeling sick").
I blame myself, this isn't a "screw models" post. I'm working on a TF basis and my port isn't where I need it to be yet. Ok, fine.
However, my question is this: I have now shared a relatively unique concept shoot in detail to 5 models who didn't pull through. What control do I have over that specific idea? The answer is none.
The solution I had was to set up test shoots first before sharing concepts. That has not worked yet either.
My gut feeling right now is that until I get clients that pay me, so I can pay the models, MM is not going to be a place to get talent. I'll have to do it the old fashioned, person to person networking way.
Unless I'm completely missing the boat, which is always a possibility. I'd say it was the follow up. How far in advanced did you book? Did you stay in touch in the time between when they agreed to shoot and the shoot date? Even if it was just a follow up or reminder of address or contact details?
If it's a risque concept, did you provide references? Sometimes an idea seems like great all the way up until crunch time. References seem to help sooth nerves, even if they don't get used.
Did you spring some new detail or aspect of the concept on them at the last minute? Or change something last minute? This is not a good idea. I stick with one concept, I keep it straight forward and not too complex, and I make sure it allows enough leeway so that we can work with it on the day without getting stuck in a rut. If I think of a new idea, I'll mention it only AFTER the shoot, or after we've hit a wall or are heading that way. This way, we get undivided attention whilst shooting the original concept, I don't lock myself into doing something I don't want to do if I'm not happy with how we're working together and we can decide then and there to book another date or extend the shoot or whatever.
Not to say that all of these things are going to bring your flake rate down to zero, but it all helps.
Photographer
Rich Burroughs
Posts: 3259
Portland, Oregon, US
Zombie Eye Photography wrote:
On topic question: I've got, what I think, is a great concept for a shoot. I've approached 5, yes, 5 models on MM to shoot it and all of them flaked (I didn't get the grandmother excuse once, all of them used "I woke up feeling sick").
I blame myself, this isn't a "screw models" post. I'm working on a TF basis and my port isn't where I need it to be yet. Ok, fine.
However, my question is this: I have now shared a relatively unique concept shoot in detail to 5 models who didn't pull through. What control do I have over that specific idea? The answer is none.
The solution I had was to set up test shoots first before sharing concepts. That has not worked yet either.
My gut feeling right now is that until I get clients that pay me, so I can pay the models, MM is not going to be a place to get talent. I'll have to do it the old fashioned, person to person networking way.
Unless I'm completely missing the boat, which is always a possibility. Well you admit that your portfolio isn't what it needs to be. You can't control what models do, but you can control that part.
Having a better portfolio could lead to being able to TF with more experienced, reliable people. Even if they won't do straight up trade, they might be willing to negotiate. When I started out I paid about half the models I shot with, but I was never paying their full rates.
And I'm not sure I understand your last comment. I do person to person networking all the time. I've never gotten away from it. Most people I work with have at least worked with people I know, although I do take a few chances. If you're just posting casting calls and working with random people, then yeah, I could see that being rough.
I network with models pretty much every day.
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 33877
Arcata, California, US
I posted this in another thread for a fellow photographer, but some of it may be of help to you.
===========================================================
1) Learn some of the traits of flakes (note: hardly a comprehensive list). Be wary of:
A) Unrealistic hopes and expectations
B) Excessive enthusiasm
C) Poor/inconsistent communication
D) Fear and skittishness (especially if it manifests itself in boyfriend/husband is
required as escort)
E) If the model seems skittish, suggest she participate in a
multi-model shoot with hair/MUA in attendance.
2) Do a cursory background check on the model. It's not foolproof.
A) Check the model's profile tags. Are there any photographers leaving tags like,
"What happened to you?" That's a kiss of death if those tags exist.
B) Ask photographers who've worked with that model. (You'll rarely get a negative
response, but you can verify the model's work ethic.)
C) Ask other photographers you know if they'd dealt with the model. By this
method I have found out some models have a history of flaking.
D) If in doubt, include the model in a multi-model shoot. If she
bails, you still have someone else to work with. And the model
who does show gets our undivided attention.
3) Establish a policy for communication and timely response. Let the model know.
A) For me, in the last 4-5 days before the shoot, any response slower than 24
hours may terminate the shoot.
B) I contact the model the day before the shoot to verify. If by the day of the
shoot I don't get a response, I try one last time by email and voice call.
No reply within an hour or two, no shoot.
C) I don't hit the road without hearing from the model (voice call or email) on the
day of the shoot.
NOTE: When told about my requirement for timely response, most models are
pretty good about contacting me proactively.
Photographer
San Francisco Nudes
Posts: 2910
Novato, California, US
There's some really good info up there. The one thing I'll add is that you need to customize it for your situation, like any other workflow. As an example for me when I used to just shoot in my living room, I used to require they call or text me by such and such o'clock the morning of the shoot, or I wouldn't start setting up. Worked great - of the people who contacted me they almost all showed up a couple of hours later, and I didn't waste time setting up and tearing down. I lost the very occasional model who slept in, but it was rare.
When I moved to a more dedicated space and things were pretty much ready to roll, the consequences of a flake were lower. It wasn't worth being quite so strict and risking losing a good shoot. So I still had some systems in place (contact within last 48 hours, their phone #, references) but dropped the that-day requirement... but I still keep it for location shoots - I make it clear that I expect us to be in contact about the time I'm headed out and I won't get in the car if I haven't heard from them.
Anyway, you get the idea. You may have to experiment a bit but you should at least be able to get most flakes caught at an early enough point that they don't inconvenience you too much. Just set some expectations and make it clear that if those expectations aren't met you'll make other plans and won't be available if they show up anyway.
Photographer
AGrecoPhotography
Posts: 16
Doylestown, Pennsylvania, US
Lee Nutter wrote:
2) have a concept in mind when you contact a model. I do have a question regarding this. I just started to focus my work on my brand, coming from a corporate studio, and I am looking to expand my port of my brand for my own work/website which is going to be slight fashion infused glamour. I get a Hair/MuA team wanting to work with my on this as well.
I know the concept, location, and some posing ideas that want. As for the Hair style and make up and wardrobe, to me, specifics dont matter as long as the style fits the concept, the Hairstyles and MuA can have fun with it. Is this latter part ok... or should I request specifics with the Hair/makeup?
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 33877
Arcata, California, US
Julie L Hill wrote:
Good idea . I wish MM had a reference or rating section on profiles. The solution would be more of a nightmare than the problem it's designed to solve.
Photographer
lightscapes
Posts: 349
Phoenix, Arizona, US
Nothing works perfectly, nothing ! But adding something like this to my profile page has done a very good job of nearly eliminating the problem. Does it deter a few otherwise reliable potential models ? Probably. But have also had several that say it encouraged them to book. Nothing works perfectly, nothing.
" Unfortunately, if you have been doing this awhile, sooner or later you run into people who simply cannot do what they say they are going to do. Usually, it's a newbie person. But it is rude, unprofessional, wastes my time and my money and just truly pisses me off.
Against my better judgement and to possibly save some of my photographer colleagues from similar hassles......
No Show No Call
Sally MM# XXXXXXX
Brittany MM # XXXXXXX
Angelica MM # XXXXXXX "
---
Photographer
Woven Thought
Posts: 329
Petersburg, Virginia, US
I have in the contract that contact must be made within an hour of session (or whatever will work with travel time) or session will be cancelled. Texting is great.
Photographer
lightscapes
Posts: 349
Phoenix, Arizona, US
Woven Thought wrote:
I have in the contract that contact must be made within an hour of session (or whatever will work with travel time) or session will be cancelled. Texting is great. Sure. But that still means you have wasted your time, your money and your effort in scheduling somebody that never shows up. The answer has to be something that nearly eliminates dealing with these people in first place.
Photographer
Loki Studio
Posts: 3523
Royal Oak, Michigan, US
References, pre shoot meetings, back up talent, industry standard pay rates, and high quality results deposits help avoid no show problems.
Photographer
Woven Thought
Posts: 329
Petersburg, Virginia, US
Lightscapes wrote:
Sure. But that still means you have wasted your time, your money and your effort in scheduling somebody that never shows up. The answer has to be something that nearly eliminates dealing with these people in first place. Nature of the business. You can't control the weather either.
Photographer
Louis Li Photography
Posts: 1177
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Catey Lamberth wrote:
As a model with limited experience, when i do things for modeling im almost crazy about leaving on time or early. i pack my items hours or a day in advance, depending on what i'm taking, and double and even triple check. Because i know that no matter how fabulous my pictures are this could make or break a deal.
I was told when going into a gig you treat it as a job, not just for fun. A go-see is an interview and the shoot or runway is the job. Even if you are not getting paid you do this out of courtesy. want to come to Vancouver?
Photographer
lightscapes
Posts: 349
Phoenix, Arizona, US
Woven Thought wrote:
Nature of the business. You can't control the weather either. That's not an answer. Try adding something in profile as suggested. Be proactive and help other photographers solve their No Shows also. Thanks !
Photographer
Four-Eleven Productions
Posts: 762
Fircrest, Washington, US
When establishing the pay for my first shoot with any llama, I offer X dollars more if they are ready for the first 'click' by a certain time. Although I started doing it as a means of encouraging timeliness, it also seems to have reduced my flake rate. Perhaps the focus on 'time and place' helps distract them from the fear, apathy and indecision that seem to drive flakitude.
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 23575
Salem, Oregon, US
i've had 100% success when paying whereas TF has always been problematic (even more so of late than when i started). i have more success getting TF models through means other than mayhem (even if they are on mayhem).
some people require a pre-shoot meeting.
Photographer
BodyartBabes
Posts: 2005
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US
Caustic Disco wrote:
check references!!! That doesn't always work.
Last week, had a workshop, and I didn't double book, because the model was in town, and had confirmed the night before. On the way she had an accident.
Next model, I had worked with before, she had contacted me, she had been on the way.... but fell asleep at a rest stop, and didn't wake up. I didn't double book, because I had worked with her before, she needed the money, she had already had cancellations on HER trip, etc. And, I didn't know anyone locally that would be a good "sub" for her look.
Two "confirmed" and referenced no-shows in a week. Both with a full house. Cost me, and cost them. Cost everyone.
Scott
Photographer
AGrecoPhotography
Posts: 16
Doylestown, Pennsylvania, US
Loki Studio wrote:
References, pre shoot meetings, back up talent, industry standard pay rates, and high quality results deposits help avoid no show problems. I personally tried pre-shoot meetings so the hair and makeup team can actually see, in person, what they are dealing with. It's a good idea in my opinion, but I have had some issues with no shows to those meetings and eventually the shoots.
I guess that is what I get for trying to do TF work.
Model
D A N I
Posts: 4627
Little Rock, Arkansas, US
A little hard to have "references" when the model only shot with 1-2 photographers. It's almost like an entry level position needing the applicant to have experience. That is, if you're checking out new models on the scene.
Or you could find models that have been around and have shot with multiple photographers.
I've worked with different photographers but mainly GWCs. Three are actually reference-able and of those three, I only have contact with two now.
Photographer
Karasev Studio
Posts: 136
New York, New York, US
With the rarest of exceptions, I'd never again shoot with a model, MUA, assistant, who did not show up (or was 30+ min late) without warning.
Things happen, but this is why we have cell phones.
Photographer
I M N Photography
Posts: 2350
Boston, Massachusetts, US
Danielle Kitten wrote:
A little hard to have "references" when the model only shot with 1-2 photographers. +1
Regardless of whether it is a test, trade, or paid shoot, you should have contingency plans. If you don't, then try to make the best of the situation, and reschedule with everyone else.
Planning a crucial shoot with someone that you can't verify for reliability, is a recipe for disaster.
Karasev Studio wrote:
...
Things happen, but this is why we have cell phones. Valid. Unfortunately, some people choose not to answer their phones, until they can come up with an excuse.
Unless the individual is going to cost you a job, you should shrug it off, and move on. If it is an important shoot, then you need to be more diligent about vetting your models.
Photographer
Darik Datta
Posts: 118
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Julie L Hill wrote:
I am so annoyed by unprofessional behavior. I have had a couple of models no show on two different occasions. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to avoid this or maybe other suggestions on how to filter unreliable models. Time is money and this is costing me. Are you paying them? This happens to me frequently on TF shoots and never happens when I am paying.
If you're not paying someone, how "professional" can you expect them to act?
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 23575
Salem, Oregon, US
well in theory you are paying them with images (except for the turkeys who don't ever deliver any) and experience in front of the camera. but obviously cold hard cash works best for some people although you do hear tales of paid models flaking as well. Darik Datta wrote:
If you're not paying someone, how "professional" can you expect them to act?
Photographer
I M N Photography
Posts: 2350
Boston, Massachusetts, US
Darik Datta wrote:
Are you paying them? This happens to me frequently on TF shoots and never happens when I am paying.
If you're not paying someone, how "professional" can you expect them to act? Aside from how much value you give to your side of the TF equation, I feel that the key word in Professional Behavior is behavior. It has little to do with being $paid$, and more to do with a personal sense of ethics.
Your contacts will treat you as good as your word.
One tip that I learned from someone some time ago was to have the shoot's participants contact me or someone else one hour before the shoot.
Works wonders.
It doesn't reduce the amount of same-day cancellations, but at least you save yourselves the trouble of heading out the door, if you don't have a backup plan.
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lol
. I wish MM had a reference or rating section on profiles.
