Forums > General Industry > Need to make a edit something for commercial use

Photographer

R A V E N D R I V E

Posts: 15867

New York, New York, US

Hey guys! I want to use a map that someone else created. They specifically said not for commercial use, but my use would be commercial use definitely seeking money

so I need to modify it definitely or recreate it entirely

but in the case of modifying it, are there any key points that would make it a derivative enough work for it to be my own with my own copyright? looking more so for social norms instead of court decisions


thanks!

Dec 04 12 07:08 pm Link

Photographer

Kev Lawson

Posts: 7844

Las Vegas, Nevada, US

If you have illustrator can you just not re-create it, in your own style?

Dec 04 12 07:09 pm Link

Photographer

R A V E N D R I V E

Posts: 15867

New York, New York, US

UltimateAppeal wrote:
If you have illustrator can you just not re-create it, in your own style?

haha looking for the bare minimum here lol


does our government have a fantasy department that makes fictional world maps? those would be in public domain

Dec 04 12 07:14 pm Link

Photographer

S W I N S K E Y

Posts: 24315

Saint Petersburg, Florida, US

how about compensating the original artist?....

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8kpwnzjEA1qkgmnu.gif

http://i.imgur.com/m8TQi.png

Dec 04 12 07:16 pm Link

Photographer

R A V E N D R I V E

Posts: 15867

New York, New York, US

S W I N S K E Y wrote:
how about compensating the original artist?....

I'm not opposed to that, a lot of artists don't know how to deal though, because noones every bought their work ha

also I want to move forward tonight

I could probably use this map while in development, and swap it out for a different graphic later tho

Dec 04 12 07:19 pm Link

Model

Wynd Mulysa

Posts: 8612

Berkeley, California, US

S W I N S K E Y wrote:
how about compensating the original artist?....

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8kpwnzjEA1qkgmnu.gif

to me it doesn't seem like compensation is the issue to me.

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-prn1/c40.0.240.240/s160x160/19151_319777051270_3306729_n.jpg

Dec 04 12 07:21 pm Link

Photographer

R A V E N D R I V E

Posts: 15867

New York, New York, US

Wynd Mulysa wrote:

to me it doesn't seem like compensation is the issue to me.

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-prn1/c40.0.240.240/s160x160/19151_319777051270_3306729_n.jpg

your right, I'm really not considering that as there are also other maps, it will be modified or recreated

or I will use that as a stencil and photo manip some trees in from a public domain map of the earth DAMN THATS A GOOD IDEA nasa has some high res earths too

Dec 04 12 07:28 pm Link

Photographer

Gaze at Photography

Posts: 4371

Hilton Head Island, South Carolina, US

Trivial

Dec 04 12 07:30 pm Link

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Photographer

Rays Fine Art

Posts: 6314

New York, New York, US

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
Hey guys! I want to use a map that someone else created. They specifically said not for commercial use, but my use would be commercial use definitely seeking money

so I need to modify it definitely or recreate it entirely

but in the case of modifying it, are there any key points that would make it a derivative enough work for it to be my own with my own copyright? looking more so for social norms instead of court decisions


thanks!

You should look at http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf

Unless the piece you are working from is in the public domain (which I doubt from your post) obtaining the permission of the current copyright owner would be the essential first step in creating a coprightable derivative--No permission=You're stuck.

As to "Social Norms", they have no impact on anything more substantive than barroom debates--Copyright--all copyrights--are governed by statute and court decisions, not "social norms", at least as far as I understand it, and of course, I'm no lawyer.

For what it's worth and in my opinion, as always, anyone who comes here for legal opinions doesn't need a lawyer half as much as he needs a psychiatrist.

Dec 04 12 07:32 pm Link

Photographer

R A V E N D R I V E

Posts: 15867

New York, New York, US

Rays Fine Art wrote:

You should look at http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf

Unless the piece you are working from is in the public domain (which I doubt from your post) obtaining the permission of the current copyright owner would be the essential first step in creating a coprightable derivative--No permission=You're stuck.

As to "Social Norms", they have no impact on anything more substantive than barroom debates--Copyright--all copyrights--are governed by statute and court decisions, not "social norms", at least as far as I understand it, and of course, I'm no lawyer.

For what it's worth and in my opinion, as always, anyone who comes here for legal opinions doesn't need a lawyer half as much as he needs a psychiatrist.

the reason I asked about social norms is because even if I claimed fair use, thats something you defend in court

so we could just skip the subjective state of the court's approach to copyright in the modern age, and talk about what typically happens instead

Dec 04 12 07:36 pm Link

Photographer

Marc Damon

Posts: 6562

Biloxi, Mississippi, US

Rays Fine Art wrote:

You should look at http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf

Unless the piece you are working from is in the public domain (which I doubt from your post) obtaining the permission of the current copyright owner would be the essential first step in creating a coprightable derivative--No permission=You're stuck.

As to "Social Norms", they have no impact on anything more substantive than barroom debates--Copyright--all copyrights--are governed by statute and court decisions, not "social norms", at least as far as I understand it, and of course, I'm no lawyer.

For what it's worth and in my opinion, as always, anyone who comes here for legal opinions doesn't need a lawyer half as much as he needs a psychiatrist.

Maybe.
I think some people just don't know where to begin. If the forums can provide some basic info which helps them take a list of quasi-intelligent questions to a qualified lawyer, they're a step ahead. But you are correct that no one should rely on any legal opinion offered here. Would you ask a mechanic in Chicago to prescribe medicine when you're sick in Miami? I hope not!

Dec 04 12 07:44 pm Link

Photographer

Gaze at Photography

Posts: 4371

Hilton Head Island, South Carolina, US

Why don't you two exchange numbers...  smile

Dec 04 12 07:46 pm Link

Photographer

R A V E N D R I V E

Posts: 15867

New York, New York, US

Marc Damon wrote:
Maybe.
I think some people just don't know where to begin. If the forums can provide some basic info which helps them take a list of quasi-intelligent questions to a qualified lawyer, they're a step ahead. But you are correct that no one should rely on any legal opinion offered here. Would you ask a mechanic in Chicago to prescribe medicine when you're sick in Miami? I hope not!

well I only post copyright related stuff so that studio 32 and that other guy respond

but I enjoy the comedy in the mean time

Dec 04 12 07:49 pm Link

Photographer

Marc Damon

Posts: 6562

Biloxi, Mississippi, US

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
well I only post so that studio 32 and that other guy respond

but I enjoy the comedy in the mean time

Glad I could help put a smile on your face.

Dec 04 12 07:53 pm Link

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Photographer

studio36uk

Posts: 21900

Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna

Very much depends on the map, I might think. Certain things are not even copyrightable. One could not, for example, create a street map of a town and copyright it to include in that copyright the arrangement of the streets, their names or the name of the town. The arrangement of the streets themselves, their names or the name of the town, are simply not copyrightable elements, though the map as a whole may contain some other copyrightable elements.

Not a stock answer in sight to your question. It all depends on the map.

Studio36

Dec 04 12 08:42 pm Link

Photographer

Kev Lawson

Posts: 7844

Las Vegas, Nevada, US

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
well I only post copyright related stuff so that studio 32 and that other guy respond

but I enjoy the comedy in the mean time

studio36uk wrote:
Very much depends on the map, I might think. Certain things are not even copyrightable. One could not, for example, create a street map of a town and copyright it to include in that copyright the arrangement of the streets. The arrangement of the streets themselves is simply not a copyrightable element.

Not a stock answer in sight to your question. It all depends on the map.

Studio36

There is what you were waiting for. wink

Dec 04 12 08:43 pm Link

Photographer

Abbitt Photography

Posts: 11723

Oakland Acres, Iowa, US

You didn't say what kind of area or map you are working on.

I believe USGS maps can be copied and used - I believe that was part of the usage agreement with with using tax payer dollars.  So consider using those for a base if you can - but verify what I've said.

I undertand many other map makers, including nautical chart producers have spent a great deal of money on their charts and will not hesitate to go after anyone they believe is breaking their copyright.   

Satellite or ariel photography can be used as a base for making simple charts with illustrator or other software, but I'm not sure where the line is on using something like that for even an outline.

Mapmaker is a free software program I've used for creating maps from satellite images which I believe has already dealt with usage rights issues.

Dec 04 12 08:59 pm Link

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Photographer

studio36uk

Posts: 21900

Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna

SEE:
http://www.bitlaw.com/source/37cfr/202_1.html
37 CFR 202.1
Material not subject to copyright

---

also see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_of_originality


Studio36

Dec 04 12 09:02 pm Link

Photographer

R A V E N D R I V E

Posts: 15867

New York, New York, US

studio36uk wrote:
Very much depends on the map, I might think. Certain things are not even copyrightable. One could not, for example, create a street map of a town and copyright it to include in that copyright the arrangement of the streets, their names or the name of the town. The arrangement of the streets themselves, their names or the name of the town, are simply not copyrightable elements, though the map as a whole may contain some other copyrightable elements.

Not a stock answer in sight to your question. It all depends on the map.

Studio36

you are right, it is a map of a fantasy world

Dec 04 12 09:05 pm Link

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Photographer

studio36uk

Posts: 21900

Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:

studio36uk wrote:
Very much depends on the map, I might think. Certain things are not even copyrightable. One could not, for example, create a street map of a town and copyright it to include in that copyright the arrangement of the streets, their names or the name of the town. The arrangement of the streets themselves, their names or the name of the town, are simply not copyrightable elements, though the map as a whole may contain some other copyrightable elements.

Not a stock answer in sight to your question. It all depends on the map.

Studio36

you are right, it is a map of a fantasy world

In that case likely it is copyrightable matter. Proceed with caution.

Studio36

Dec 04 12 09:14 pm Link

Photographer

R A V E N D R I V E

Posts: 15867

New York, New York, US

studio36uk wrote:

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:

studio36uk wrote:
Very much depends on the map, I might think. Certain things are not even copyrightable. One could not, for example, create a street map of a town and copyright it to include in that copyright the arrangement of the streets, their names or the name of the town. The arrangement of the streets themselves, their names or the name of the town, are simply not copyrightable elements, though the map as a whole may contain some other copyrightable elements.

Not a stock answer in sight to your question. It all depends on the map.

Studio36

you are right, it is a map of a fantasy world

In that case likely it is copyrightable matter. Proceed with caution.

Studio36

this is a little frustrating for me

my idea is to use an altered map, and provide a digital service around that map

as far as copyright goes, I want to use an altered map or create a new one that represents this fake world, but even then offer that map for free. BUT the digital service will be sustained by ads or additional purchasable content unrelated to the viewing of the map

just tough to evaluate the liability here

because there are:
1 - the owners of the source material, possibly owning trademarks and copyrights to the source map
2 - the person that has the high resolution map I want, that claims their own copyright (their problem)

and me, that has a variety of options

Dec 05 12 05:10 pm Link

Photographer

David Parsons

Posts: 972

Quincy, Massachusetts, US

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:

studio36uk wrote:

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:

studio36uk wrote:
Very much depends on the map, I might think. Certain things are not even copyrightable. One could not, for example, create a street map of a town and copyright it to include in that copyright the arrangement of the streets, their names or the name of the town. The arrangement of the streets themselves, their names or the name of the town, are simply not copyrightable elements, though the map as a whole may contain some other copyrightable elements.

Not a stock answer in sight to your question. It all depends on the map.

Studio36

you are right, it is a map of a fantasy world

In that case likely it is copyrightable matter. Proceed with caution.

Studio36

this is a little frustrating for me

my idea is to use an altered map, and provide a digital service around that map

as far as copyright goes, I want to use an altered map or create a new one that represents this fake world, but even then offer that map for free. BUT the digital service will be sustained by ads or additional purchasable content unrelated to the viewing of the map

just tough to evaluate the liability here

because there are:
1 - the owners of the source material, possibly owning trademarks and copyrights to the source map
2 - the person that has the high resolution map I want, that claims their own copyright (their problem)

and me, that has a variety of options

They specifically said not for commercial use, but my use would be commercial use definitely seeking money

How exactly do you reconcile what you want to do?

Commercial use is specifically prohibited, yet you are trying to find a loophole or way around it.  Either communicate with the owner and come to an agreement, commission your own map with rights to it, or find a map that will allow commercial use and modification.

Dec 05 12 05:21 pm Link

Photographer

R A V E N D R I V E

Posts: 15867

New York, New York, US

David Parsons wrote:
Commercial use is specifically prohibited, yet you are trying to find a loophole or way around it.  Either communicate with the owner and come to an agreement, commission your own map with rights to it, or find a map that will allow commercial use and modification.

No the dilemma is that even the owners of the high res map that I like, are not the owners of the source material, which they would have based their map off of

leading to my other dilemma about recreating my own map: how much different would mine have to be at all

I expect a cease and desist order from someone somewhere along the way, no matter which direction I go. whether its the owners of the source material with a copyright and/or trademark claim (you know, with the name of the world), or its the owners of the the high res map that I maybe derived a map from, or both parties

my "motion to dismiss" has to at least have some weight lol but I dont want to discuss that. I want to discuss social norms, arbitration doesn't use case law

Dec 05 12 05:51 pm Link

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Photographer

Rays Fine Art

Posts: 6314

New York, New York, US

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
No the dilemma is that even the owners of the high res map that I like, are not the owners of the source material, which they would have based their map off of

leading to my other dilemma about recreating my own map: how much different would mine have to be at all

I expect a cease and desist order from someone somewhere along the way, no matter which direction I go. whether its the owners of the source material with a copyright and/or trademark claim (you know, with the name of the world), or its the owners of the the high res map that I maybe derived a map from, or both parties

my "motion to dismiss" has to at least have some weight lol but I dont want to discuss that. I want to discuss social norms, arbitration doesn't use case law

Gotta admire your determination. 
You've obviously been around a while, you're aware that you are likely to have to take on several adversaries, I'm sure you're aware that the potential for statutory damages would be crushing and leaves the copyright holder(s) little reason to accept arbitration as well as the fact that while a title is not copyrightable you might also be facing a battle over a trademark (a different breed of cat from a copyright) and that winning or losing either action will be based on a judgement call by a third party (or parties since you seem to anticipate the possibility multiple actions) and you're still looking for advice here.
I do admire you, but with all due respect, given all these facts,  I'd feel a whole lot better if you'd at least give the psychiatrist some thought. smile

Dec 06 12 07:41 am Link

Photographer

deletedxxx

Posts: 149

Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Golly, your time frame of "needing to move forward tonight" is probably too tight to do anything other than going the copyright infringement path which you already know is going to be a drama. Which sounds like what you want to do all along but minus the dramas.
Had you been a bit more organised and a bit smarter, you could have probably found a young hobby artist or a design student without too much hassle that would draw you a map for you that you own outright with no possible dramas purely for the thrill of it and a bit of pocket money. I have one living in my home right now that would do something like that for $20 and the thrill of knowing that someone want to buy her art.
Ah well, some people like to do things the hard way....

Dec 06 12 12:46 pm Link

Photographer

Brian Scanlon

Posts: 790

Encino, California, US

landofy wrote:
Golly, your time frame of "needing to move forward tonight" is probably too tight to do anything other than going the copyright infringement path which you already know is going to be a drama. Which sounds like what you want to do all along but minus the dramas.
Had you been a bit more organised and a bit smarter, you could have probably found a young hobby artist or a design student without too much hassle that would draw you a map for you that you own outright with no possible dramas purely for the thrill of it and a bit of pocket money. I have one living in my home right now that would do something like that for $20 and the thrill of knowing that someone want to buy her art.
Ah well, some people like to do things the hard way....

I suspect there is more to this fantasy map than the op is letting on.  It is probably based upon some other property that makes it important to him that he use this map and not some other that he created himself.  All I can say is that he is cruising for a bruising.

Dec 06 12 01:31 pm Link

Photographer

R A V E N D R I V E

Posts: 15867

New York, New York, US

landofy wrote:
Golly, your time frame of "needing to move forward tonight" is probably too tight to do anything other than going the copyright infringement path which you already know is going to be a drama. Which sounds like what you want to do all along but minus the dramas.
Had you been a bit more organised and a bit smarter, you could have probably found a young hobby artist or a design student without too much hassle that would draw you a map for you that you own outright with no possible dramas purely for the thrill of it and a bit of pocket money. I have one living in my home right now that would do something like that for $20 and the thrill of knowing that someone want to buy her art.
Ah well, some people like to do things the hard way....

this isn't out of the question actually

there is one guy I want to use his map which he already only has people pay for, but I still need him to agree to commercial use, I'm trying to use a creative commons license (which are pretty popular and people compulsively agree to them) and pay him

secondly I plan on offering the digital service for free, and the ads will only promote other digital services of mine and I won't be charging click thru on the ads. so this is intended to nullify any damages claims if they arise from the possible trademark holder because they won't be able to price them

I call it risk analysis really

Dec 06 12 06:00 pm Link

Photographer

Art of the nude

Posts: 11892

Olivet, Michigan, US

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
this isn't out of the question actually

there is one guy I want to use his map which he already only has people pay for, but I still need him to agree to commercial use, I'm trying to use a creative commons license (which are pretty popular and people compulsively agree to them) and pay him

secondly I plan on offering the digital service for free, and the ads will only promote other digital services of mine and I won't be charging click thru on the ads. so this is intended to nullify any damages claims if they arise from the possible trademark holder because they won't be able to price them

I call it risk analysis really

I can't tell you how impressed I am with the amount of effort you are willing to put into getting around someone's copyright.  Can't help wondering if the models and clients you deal with are so dedicated.

Dec 06 12 07:06 pm Link

Photographer

R A V E N D R I V E

Posts: 15867

New York, New York, US

Art of the nude wrote:

I can't tell you how impressed I am with the amount of effort you are willing to put into getting around someone's copyright.  Can't help wondering if the models and clients you deal with are so dedicated.

lol thanks , I wouldn't say getting around, I would say limiting liability

Dec 06 12 07:27 pm Link