Forums > Digital Art and Retouching > Avoid information's loss from a calibrated screen?

Photographer

Jean-Baptiste Bentouati

Posts: 45

Paris, Île-de-France, France

I'm now working with my lovely calibrated Nec! It's such a gap from what I used to use. I now have details in my black wich is wonderfull but...
How do you deal when it comes to just put the images on your website ? When I watch them on my macbook pro for instance (and as not everyone's got a calibrated screen to browse the internet) I lose a lot of information. Is there a way to avoid that?

Dec 27 12 03:59 am Link

Retoucher

Krunoslav Stifter

Posts: 3883

Santa Cruz, California, US

Jean-Baptiste Bentouati wrote:
I'm now working with my lovely calibrated Nec! It's such a gap from what I used to use. I now have details in my black wich is wonderfull but...
How do you deal when it comes to just put the images on your website ? When I watch them on my macbook pro for instance (and as not everyone's got a calibrated screen to browse the internet) I lose a lot of information. Is there a way to avoid that?

Web by and large is not color managed for various reasons. You personal responsibility is to have color managed workflow and do as much as you can to prepare images for the web. Convert to sRG and embed the sRGB profile, post as JPEG and that is about it. If you have done everything correctly the images should be viewed pretty much the same way on another calibrated display anywhere in the world, minus the physical limitations of the Device and human perception do to factors such as ambient light etc. 

So both you and them need calibrated display to the same settings, you need the ambient light to match, the image needs to have embedded profile and they need to view it in browser that supports color color management. At the moment, Firefox is the only full color managed web browser.

If all that is in check than you can expect the results to match otherwise there isn't much you can do for them expect prepare the image for online viewing.

Unfortunately you just can't put a gun to everyone's head and expect them to follow the rules of CM, not going to happen and many are care free with their current set up, so my suggestion is to not worry about what you can't change.

Now, you say that on your macbook pro you lose a lot of information. What do you mean exactly, what does a lot mean? If you set up everything properly you probably should not expect to have that kind of a striking difference.

Is this a matter of perception or is it really that you are loosing a lot of information. If its' perception than it's just your eyes that needs to adapt but if it's actual data lose than you might have a problem in your set up.

Dec 27 12 04:29 am Link

Retoucher

Peano

Posts: 4106

Lynchburg, Virginia, US

Jean-Baptiste Bentouati wrote:
When I watch them on my macbook pro for instance (and as not everyone's got a calibrated screen to browse the internet) I lose a lot of information. Is there a way to avoid that?

Can you post a sample image and describe what details see on your NEC that you don't see on the Macbook?

Dec 27 12 08:32 am Link

Photographer

Jean-Baptiste Bentouati

Posts: 45

Paris, Île-de-France, France

Krunoslav-Stifter wrote:
Now, you say that on your macbook pro you lose a lot of information. What do you mean exactly, what does a lot mean? If you set up everything properly you probably should not expect to have that kind of a striking difference.

Is this a matter of perception or is it really that you are loosing a lot of information. If its' perception than it's just your eyes that needs to adapt but if it's actual data lose than you might have a problem in your set up.

I'm only talking about the black. There are much more information (gradations) on my NEC whereas there is just black on my mackbook. Maybe it's because my Nec is too bright (120 cd/m2).
I'll try to upload the picture this week end as I'm not at the office this week.
But the difference between the two screen i'm talking about is just viewable on really dark picture like this one :
http://media.smashingmagazine.com/images/beautiful-shadow-photography/15.jpg
Picture is from Lara Fairie.
In this case on my Nec I'll be able to see the ear or the end of the eyebrow whereas I can't on the screen of the mac.

Dec 27 12 09:08 am Link

Retoucher

Krunoslav Stifter

Posts: 3883

Santa Cruz, California, US

Jean-Baptiste Bentouati wrote:
I'm only talking about the black. There are much more information (gradations) on my NEC whereas there is just black on my mackbook. Maybe it's because my Nec is too bright (120 cd/m2).
I'll try to upload the picture this week end as I'm not at the office this week.
But the difference between the two screen i'm talking about is just viewable on really dark picture like this one :
Picture is from Lara Fairie.
In this case on my Nec I'll be able to see the ear or the end of the eyebrow whereas I can't on the screen of the mac.

Are you calibration settings the same on one and the other and what are they?

Dec 27 12 09:16 am Link

Photographer

rp_photo

Posts: 42495

Houston, Texas, US

Jean-Baptiste Bentouati wrote:
I'm now working with my lovely calibrated Nec! It's such a gap from what I used to use. I now have details in my black wich is wonderfull but...
How do you deal when it comes to just put the images on your website ? When I watch them on my macbook pro for instance (and as not everyone's got a calibrated screen to browse the internet) I lose a lot of information. Is there a way to avoid that?

The old adage you can't please everyone so you've got to please yourself applies.

The best that you can do is get the images right on a trusted system.

Dec 27 12 09:20 am Link

Photographer

Jean-Baptiste Bentouati

Posts: 45

Paris, Île-de-France, France

Krunoslav-Stifter wrote:
Are you calibration settings the same on one and the other and what are they?

My macbook is not calibrated just like 80% of the population. But i don't wan't to change this as it enables me to see how people will see the pictures from their random computer.

Dec 27 12 09:35 am Link

Retoucher

Krunoslav Stifter

Posts: 3883

Santa Cruz, California, US

Jean-Baptiste Bentouati wrote:
My macbook is not calibrated just like 80% of the population. But i don't wan't to change this as it enables me to see how people will see the pictures from their random computer.

That is most likely the reason than, but I don't think you can do what you are trying to do since every uncalibrated monitor will be different, like I said try not to worry about that too much. It is something you can't change.

So it would seem that the problem is uncalibrated monitor and that the problem is not really the problem afterall.

Dec 27 12 09:45 am Link

Retoucher

Pictus

Posts: 1045

Teresópolis, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

Jean-Baptiste Bentouati wrote:

My macbook is not calibrated just like 80% of the population. But i don't wan't to change this as it enables me to see how people will see the pictures from their random computer.

Sorry, but this does not help.
*Each* uncalibrated system see a different image...
In one the whites are bluish, another the whites are yellowish, another the blacks are crushed...

The image you are using as example is a bad image to check for black crush, try with:
http://www.photofriday.com/calibrate.php
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/Cali … ivity.html
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/gradient.php
and/or create a gradient with Photoshop...

Dec 27 12 10:01 am Link

Retoucher

Peano

Posts: 4106

Lynchburg, Virginia, US

I wonder if you're embedding the wrong profile, and perhaps that's causing display problems. When I try to open the linked image in Photoshop, I get this error message:

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/9011/screenshot00601o.jpg

What kind of profile are you embedding? For web images you should stick with sRGB. Try that and see if it makes any difference.

EDIT: Or is that even your image? I'm a bit confused.

Dec 27 12 10:10 am Link

Photographer

Jean-Baptiste Bentouati

Posts: 45

Paris, Île-de-France, France

@Peano : No it's not my image. I just googled dark shadows.
I always embed my images with srgb profile for web uses.

Krunoslav-Stifter wrote:
So it would seem that the problem is uncalibrated monitor and that the problem is not really the problem afterall.

That's what I thought.
Thank you!

Dec 27 12 10:26 am Link

Retoucher

Shine Retouching

Posts: 194

Chicago, Illinois, US

I have a nec monitor too. My colors where off until I changed my MONITOR profile to srgb instead of adobe rgb.

Dec 27 12 11:41 am Link

Retoucher

Krunoslav Stifter

Posts: 3883

Santa Cruz, California, US

Shine Retouching wrote:
I have a nec monitor too. My colors where off until I changed my MONITOR profile to srgb instead of adobe rgb.

Is it a wide gamut display? If so there is an issue when using non color managed applications and some monitors have ability to emulate standard gamut as well as being wide gamut, is that what you are referring?

I have the same issue, but there is a workaround for those of us who can't emulate sRGB. http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?threa … st17686380

Dec 27 12 11:47 am Link

Retoucher

Shine Retouching

Posts: 194

Chicago, Illinois, US

Krunoslav-Stifter wrote:
Is it a wide gamut display? If so there is an issue when using non color managed applications and some monitors have ability to emulate standard gamut as well as being wide gamut, is that what you are referring?

I have the same issue, but there is a workaround for those of us who can't emulate sRGB. http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?threa … st17686380

I'm using the PA271W. I checked and you are right. My monitors is emulating srgb using spectra view ii the calibration software that came with the monitor.

I guess there is a difference between emulating and actually using a real srgb profile?

Sorry if I confused anyone.

Thanks for the link.

Dec 27 12 05:24 pm Link

Retoucher

Krunoslav Stifter

Posts: 3883

Santa Cruz, California, US

Shine Retouching wrote:
I'm using the PA271W. I checked and you are right. My monitors is emulating srgb using spectra view ii the calibration software that came with the monitor.

I guess there is a difference between emulating and actually using a real srgb profile?

Sorry if I confused anyone.

Thanks for the link.

Yeah, that one of the benefits of higher end monitors that can do that on the fly. Although I have heard that some mid range monitors who also offer this emulation option are not as good. It's more of a marketing thing.

There is one other thing to mention. When you are emulating sRGB (unless your monitor is somehow overriding this and I don't know it) or even using standard gamut monitor that is roughly the size of sRGB you still have the same fundamental problem it's just less noticeable.

Every time you see your image in an uncolor managed application you will default the colors to whatever the native color gamut of the monitor is. And since we save for web in sRGB every time you view your image in such an application like most internet browsers for example it will not display it in actual sRGB, but in the gamut of the monitor. It just so happens that if you are emulating sRGB or your are using sRGB type monitor the color shift will be very small and you may not even notice it.

However the real problem is when you are using the same uncolor managed applications and you are using a wide gamut monitor roughly the size of Adobe RGB 1998. Than the uncolor managed application can't read the embedded sRGB profile so it defaults to it's native gamut and that is essentially Adobe RGB 1998. The result is often very saturated colors and especially in the reds that can be a murder to flesh tones.

So if you are not suing wide gamut monitor or can emulate sRGB, the color shift is there but its usually not a problem, when using wide gamut monitor the shift in color is huge and it's very annoying. So the only way to deal with that is to use color managed applications as much as possible and of course calibrated display.

Dec 28 12 02:18 am Link