Forums > Model Colloquy > Is This Mean?

Model

Jordan L Duncan

Posts: 207

Jacksonville, Florida, US

So I posted a casting recently and got half a million responses. I am really excited and got everything I needed from the casting. Mixed in with those amazing responses were a few... well they weren't what I'm looking for right now... I know that a lot of people on here say that no response is a response, but I am afraid to alienate people who might pay me in the future... so I decided to respond to everyone in as kind a way as possible to keep feelings from being hurt. Here is my response:

"Thank you very much for your interest. Unfortunately, I received so many responses to my casting call that all of my available spots for trade have been filled, and all of the ideas I wanted to shoot have been taken. I still do have some openings for paid shoots but I am booked until March.

I have a flat rate of [I quoted my hourly, half day, and full rate here].

This rate includes all the genres of photography that I shoot which means everything from fashion to artistic nude. I come fully prepared with hair, makeup, and wardrobe.

Let me know if you would like to set something up or have any questions!

Thank you again for your interest!"


I didn't offer crazy rates knowing that nobody in their right mind would pay them or anything like that, because I really would be willing to work with these folks if they paid, just not for trade.

Is my response nice enough? Is it wrong to offer them my rates when they obviously wanted to shoot trade? If you got this response from someone would you be angry?

Personally if someone sent that to me I don't think I would be upset. I might feel down that I didn't get the casting but it wouldn't hurt my feelings and feel like I would never work with that person.

Jan 03 13 04:05 pm Link

Photographer

Rudolph Uhlman Photo

Posts: 164

Beaverton, Oregon, US

It is well written and to the point. As a photographer I would appreciate it but that's just me. It also leaves the door open for future inquires.

Jan 03 13 04:09 pm Link

Photographer

Marin Photography NYC

Posts: 7249

New York, New York, US

Well done! Kudos!

Jan 03 13 04:16 pm Link

Photographer

Lamar

Posts: 75

Wilton, New Hampshire, US

I had rather have a response such as yours than no response. When I do not receive any reply I presume the model is not interested in any shoot.  Paid of TF

Jan 03 13 04:19 pm Link

Photographer

Jay Farrell

Posts: 13144

Nashville, Tennessee, US

Perfect!

Jan 03 13 04:28 pm Link

Photographer

Rik Williams

Posts: 3507

Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Jordan L Duncan wrote:
I decided to respond to everyone in as kind a way as possible to keep feelings from being hurt. Here is my response:

"Thank you very much for your interest. Unfortunately, I received so many responses to my casting call that all of my available spots for trade have been filled, and all of the ideas I wanted to shoot have been taken. I still do have some openings for paid shoots but I am booked until March.

I have a flat rate of [I quoted my hourly, half day, and full rate here].

This rate includes all the genres of photography that I shoot which means everything from fashion to artistic nude. I come fully prepared with hair, makeup, and wardrobe.

Let me know if you would like to set something up or have any questions!

Thank you again for your interest!"

Totally professional and reasonable, well done.
This is very similar to what I would do under those circumstances smile

Jan 03 13 04:40 pm Link

Model

Jordan L Duncan

Posts: 207

Jacksonville, Florida, US

Thank you everyone!

Jan 03 13 04:41 pm Link

Photographer

Snowmonkey Design

Posts: 4633

London, England, United Kingdom

No your definitely not mean, what you have written is extremely eloquent,  reasonable, considerate and well measured response. It also shows those you do choose to work with, you are professional and easy to get a long with and take pride in what you do. A polite or indeed any response is better than none..smile

Jan 03 13 04:45 pm Link

Model

K I C K H A M

Posts: 14636

Los Angeles, California, US

While I agree that it is well-written and perfectly acceptable, don't be surprised that some people WILL be mad when you send this to them, or perhaps think the casting was a guise to solicit paid work.

I don't respond offering rates to people to don't ask them, personally, and believe that people are more likely to respond ASKING for my rates if I politely respond that I'm not interested in TF with them at the time.


It would be cool if you checked back in with your results, just to see how it goes! And good luck on the trade shoots you have, it sounds like you're going to be a busy girl!

Jan 03 13 04:46 pm Link

Photographer

Chuckarelei

Posts: 9566

Seattle, Washington, US

Jordan L Duncan wrote:
So I posted a casting recently and got half a million responses. I am really excited and got everything I needed from the casting. Mixed in with those amazing responses were a few... well they weren't what I'm looking for right now... I know that a lot of people on here say that no response is a response, but I am afraid to alienate people who might pay me in the future... so I decided to respond to everyone in as kind a way as possible to keep feelings from being hurt. Here is my response:

"Thank you very much for your interest. Unfortunately, I received so many responses to my casting call that all of my available spots for trade have been filled, and all of the ideas I wanted to shoot have been taken. I still do have some openings for paid shoots but I am booked until March.
I have a flat rate of [I quoted my hourly, half day, and full rate here].
This rate includes all the genres of photography that I shoot which means everything from fashion to artistic nude. I come fully prepared with hair, makeup, and wardrobe.
Let me know if you would like to set something up or have any questions!
Thank you again for your interest!"



I didn't offer crazy rates knowing that nobody in their right mind would pay them or anything like that, because I really would be willing to work with these folks if they paid, just not for trade.
Is my response nice enough? Is it wrong to offer them my rates when they obviously wanted to shoot trade? If you got this response from someone would you be angry?
Personally if someone sent that to me I don't think I would be upset. I might feel down that I didn't get the casting but it wouldn't hurt my feelings and feel like I would never work with that person.

You posted a casting for TF. People responded for TF. You counter offered as charged availability. That's bait and switch. Tacky at best.

Jan 03 13 05:08 pm Link

Photographer

Tropical Photography

Posts: 35392

Sarasota, Florida, US

K I C K H A M wrote:
While I agree that it is well-written and perfectly acceptable, don't be surprised that some people WILL be mad when you send this to them, or perhaps think the casting was a guise to solicit paid work.

I don't respond offering rates to people to don't ask them, personally, and believe that people are more likely to respond ASKING for my rates if I politely respond that I'm not interested in TF with them at the time.


It would be cool if you checked back in with your results, just to see how it goes! And good luck on the trade shoots you have, it sounds like you're going to be a busy girl!

Unfortunately, I think Kickham is right in that you may get some negative responses.. But personally I think your response is very good, professional and polite. And while I might be bummed getting it, I would not be offended and would be appreciative that you responded rather than the old no reply is not a reply..

Jan 03 13 05:09 pm Link

Photographer

Tropical Photography

Posts: 35392

Sarasota, Florida, US

Chuckarelei wrote:

You posted a casting for TF. People responded for TF. You counter offered as charged availability. That's bait and switch. Tacky at best.

I can kinda see how you might take it as bait and switch, but if there were a limited number of slots for trade, and they're filled, I don't see an issue with this.. And honestly, I think responding is far more professional than a no reply..

Jan 03 13 05:12 pm Link

Photographer

Chuckarelei

Posts: 9566

Seattle, Washington, US

Tropical Photography wrote:
I can kinda see how you might take it as bait and switch, but if there were a limited number of slots for trade, and they're filled, I don't see an issue with this.. And honestly, I think responding is far more professional than a no reply..

Just say not available anymore. No need to go around and promote 'available for money' though, just not for free.

Jan 03 13 05:14 pm Link

Photographer

Tyler C Johnson

Posts: 164

San Diego, California, US

The only thing i might add is "keep you eyes open as I may have time for more trade in the next few months and would love to consider you first. Otherwise my rates are....etc" some of those photographers don't have the budget for models but are good and might be worth keeping in mind. That way its not thought of as a bait and switch ploy.

Jan 03 13 05:19 pm Link

Photographer

ELiffmann

Posts: 1414

Baton Rouge, Louisiana, US

Chuckarelei wrote:

Just say not available anymore. No need to go around and promote 'available for money' though, just not for free.

+1. Strikes me as, "here's your consolation prize, you can pay me."  I'd appreciate a note acknowledging an offer but I find it a little distasteful to quote rates in what should be a thank you note.

Jan 03 13 05:26 pm Link

Hair Stylist

Platform Artist

Posts: 157

Chicago, Illinois, US

1

Jan 03 13 05:30 pm Link

Digital Artist

Platinum Dust

Posts: 106

San Francisco, California, US

I agree that it's a well written response and shows thoughtfulness on your part. Great job! All I'd change is take out everything about setting up paid work and rates. Just saying that all of your trade ideas have been filled up is fine. If they're interested in doing paid shoots, there's room for them to bring it up.

Jan 03 13 05:32 pm Link

Photographer

DavidCoward Photography

Posts: 629

Sandy Springs, Georgia, US

It's not mean in the least, but it is a bit tacky coupling a rejection note with a quote for paid work.

Jan 03 13 05:34 pm Link

Photographer

robert b mitchell

Posts: 1464

Surrey, British Columbia, Canada

Take the rates outs...otherwise it sounds good to me. I would be offended abit on the rate quotation which did happen once to me.

Jan 03 13 05:40 pm Link

Photographer

GM Photography

Posts: 6102

Olympia, Washington, US

Kudos to you for taking the time to respond to everyone.  Your response was very well written and polite, but adding the part about being available for paid work after casting for trade could be seen as a "bait and switch" tactic. 

I think had you stopped with this, you would have been golden:

"Thank you very much for your interest. Unfortunately, I received so many responses to my casting call that all of my available spots for trade have been filled, and all of the ideas I wanted to shoot have been taken."

Jan 03 13 05:41 pm Link

Photographer

deletedxxx

Posts: 149

Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

ELiffmann wrote:
+1. Strikes me as, "here's your consolation prize, you can pay me."  I'd appreciate a note acknowledging an offer but I find it a little distasteful to quote rates in what should be a thank you note.

I can understand why quoting rates may come across as bait and switch but if you read the response she has basically said she has no TF slots for 4 months. By offering rates she is giving the option to the photographer to get her immediately on paid basis, or wait until she has time to do non cash-pay work.

Seems reasonable to me.

A bait and switch would be more like "no TF, but I'm available next week at these rates".
I'd probably consider a flat "no" as a "no never". If my confidence is high I might think it's "no not until there's been a significant change in my folio" (or until she suffers memory loss.)  An offering of a rate or a consideration of TF in several months time doesn't leave me trying to interperet what "no" really means.

Edit :read that again. Now i'm not so sure about my comments.It is unclear if she is not available until March for anything including paid, or if she isn't available until March to consider TF offers.
As such, I'd still be trying to work out what she really meant with that response sad

Because of that, I second the suggestions of leaving off the rate offer.

Jan 03 13 05:43 pm Link

Photographer

Rik Williams

Posts: 3507

Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Chuckarelei wrote:
Just say not available anymore. No need to go around and promote 'available for money' though, just not for free.

It's true that SOME individuals may view things this way.
Providing the initial casting call is legit and has actually been filled there is no crime here.
To think otherwise is tacky and tasteless at best, unless you can prove otherwise it is merely a reflection on yourself (innocent until proven guilty anyone)
Besides, it is up to the receiver to respond should they choose to do so, the op is not offering an unreasonable response to the relevant situation.
Questioning Jordan's integrity, certainly in this case, is poor form I believe.

Jan 03 13 05:49 pm Link

Model

angel emily

Posts: 1020

Boston, Massachusetts, US

Here's what I would have written:

Thank you very much for your interest.  All of my available spots for trade have been filled. I am booked for trade until March, but still have some availability for paid shoots.  If interested, please let me know.

Let them come back at you with questions about rates if they want to hire you.

Jan 03 13 05:50 pm Link

Photographer

Alexander Image

Posts: 1461

East Brunswick, New Jersey, US

Your casting call is for TF, now you responded with your rate?

What is that?

Jan 03 13 06:00 pm Link

Photographer

Azimuth Arts

Posts: 1490

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

K I C K H A M wrote:
While I agree that it is well-written and perfectly acceptable, don't be surprised that some people WILL be mad when you send this to them, or perhaps think the casting was a guise to solicit paid work.

I don't respond offering rates to people to don't ask them, personally, and believe that people are more likely to respond ASKING for my rates if I politely respond that I'm not interested in TF with them at the time.


It would be cool if you checked back in with your results, just to see how it goes! And good luck on the trade shoots you have, it sounds like you're going to be a busy girl!

+1

I am smart enough to know that if I am turned down for trade I can ask for rates.  While I would not be upset at all with you giving them, there definitely is the possibility that someone might think you didn't accept any trade offers from your casting and sent everyone the same message.  Don't even mention rates, just that your are booked for trade.

The only time I think it is acceptable to offer to provide rates is when you get a cold offer from a photographer (e.g. they found you using browse not a casting) for trade and you are not interested.  In that case respond that you are not currently available for trade but could discuss your rates if they are interested - don't send them automatically.  It's usually best to let the other person ask for them.  At least if you think you'd like to work with them someday.

Just my $0.02

Jan 03 13 06:08 pm Link

Photographer

Rik Williams

Posts: 3507

Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Alexander Image wrote:
Your casting call is for TF, now you responded with your rate?

What is that?

Oversimplified me thinks.

Jan 03 13 06:12 pm Link

Photographer

DavidCoward Photography

Posts: 629

Sandy Springs, Georgia, US

model emily  wrote:
Here's what I would have written:

Thank you very much for your interest.  All of my available spots for trade have been filled. I am booked for trade until March, but still have some availability for paid shoots.  If interested, please let me know.


Let them come back at you with questions about rates if they want to hire you.

Perfect.

Jan 03 13 06:24 pm Link

Model

Angelina Henstra

Posts: 246

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Chuckarelei wrote:
You posted a casting for TF. People responded for TF. You counter offered as charged availability. That's bait and switch. Tacky at best.

+1

Jan 03 13 06:25 pm Link

Photographer

You-Nique Studio

Posts: 57

Greenville, Michigan, US

Rudolph Uhlman Photo wrote:
It is well written and to the point. As a photographer I would appreciate it but that's just me. It also leaves the door open for future inquires.

This 100%

Jan 03 13 06:34 pm Link

Model

Tegan Lynn

Posts: 993

Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

Maybe if you acknowledge that they responded to a TF casting, and simply stated you were available for paid work, but didn't quotes rates it wouldn't have as much of that bait and switch vibe. Something like, "Unfortunately, at this time all my available TF slots have already been filled. If you're still interested in working with me, I do have some openings for paid work. My rates are available upon request, although I do realize you requested a TF shoot so if you're not interested no hard feelings smile"

I've had pretty good success with that.

Jan 03 13 06:46 pm Link

Photographer

Eyesso

Posts: 784

Ormond Beach, Florida, US

No, that's not mean at all, very professional. 

Mean would be.... "Sorry, after reviewing my million responses, your portfolio is probably the worst."  smile

Congrats on the popularity!

Jan 03 13 06:55 pm Link

Model

Jordan L Duncan

Posts: 207

Jacksonville, Florida, US

ELiffmann wrote:

+1. Strikes me as, "here's your consolation prize, you can pay me."  I'd appreciate a note acknowledging an offer but I find it a little distasteful to quote rates in what should be a thank you note.

I never thought about like that and I certainly would not want to come across that way. I really hope they don't take it like that. I appreciate your honesty!

Jan 03 13 07:21 pm Link

guide forum

Model

Koryn

Posts: 36719

Boston, Massachusetts, US

K I C K H A M wrote:
While I agree that it is well-written and perfectly acceptable, don't be surprised that some people WILL be mad when you send this to them, or perhaps think the casting was a guise to solicit paid work.

I agree with everything she said ^^^

You might not have meant it to sound like anything negative, but some people are going to believe it was a bait-and-switch, regardless of your real motivations.

Just be aware of that.

Jan 03 13 07:22 pm Link

Photographer

T R A N Q U I L I T Y

Posts: 13

Cincinnati, Ohio, US

You did well.nothing wrong,and more than most would have given

Jan 03 13 07:31 pm Link

Model

Jordan L Duncan

Posts: 207

Jacksonville, Florida, US

landofy wrote:

I can understand why quoting rates may come across as bait and switch but if you read the response she has basically said she has no TF slots for 4 months. By offering rates she is giving the option to the photographer to get her immediately on paid basis, or wait until she has time to do non cash-pay work.

Seems reasonable to me.

A bait and switch would be more like "no TF, but I'm available next week at these rates".
I'd probably consider a flat "no" as a "no never". If my confidence is high I might think it's "no not until there's been a significant change in my folio" (or until she suffers memory loss.)  An offering of a rate or a consideration of TF in several months time doesn't leave me trying to interperet what "no" really means.

Edit :read that again. Now i'm not so sure about my comments.It is unclear if she is not available until March for anything including paid, or if she isn't available until March to consider TF offers.
As such, I'd still be trying to work out what she really meant with that response sad

Because of that, I second the suggestions of leaving off the rate offer.

Just to clear things up a bit, when I am trying to figure out what dates I have available per month to shoot I like to use a certain number of those days for shooting trade, and a certain number for shooting paid. Sometimes a really amazing offer comes along and I might shift things around a bit, but that almost never happens. Whatever days go unbooked I use to book doctor appointments and things of that nature. Due to my casting, which was for trade, I have booked up all my trade slots until March. If someone wanted to shoot with me sooner, unless they have something super amazing to offer me, I would need them to pay my regular rate. If they wanted to wait until I had an opening so they could do trade, that would be fine too.

Jan 03 13 07:32 pm Link

Model

Jordan L Duncan

Posts: 207

Jacksonville, Florida, US

Azimuth Arts wrote:

+1

I am smart enough to know that if I am turned down for trade I can ask for rates.  While I would not be upset at all with you giving them, there definitely is the possibility that someone might think you didn't accept any trade offers from your casting and sent everyone the same message.  Don't even mention rates, just that your are booked for trade.

The only time I think it is acceptable to offer to provide rates is when you get a cold offer from a photographer (e.g. they found you using browse not a casting) for trade and you are not interested.  In that case respond that you are not currently available for trade but could discuss your rates if they are interested - don't send them automatically.  It's usually best to let the other person ask for them.  At least if you think you'd like to work with them someday.

Just my $0.02

Thank you so much. I really appreciate your response and I am going to remember this from now on.

Jan 03 13 07:37 pm Link

Model

Jordan L Duncan

Posts: 207

Jacksonville, Florida, US

Eyesso wrote:
No, that's not mean at all, very professional. 

Mean would be.... "Sorry, after reviewing my million responses, your portfolio is probably the worst."  smile

Congrats on the popularity!

lol I didn't get anywhere near a million responses. It just feels like a lot to me because I have so few days available to shoot due to other obligations. But thank you very much.

Jan 03 13 07:38 pm Link

Photographer

bw fotograf

Posts: 209

Plano, Texas, US

K I C K H A M wrote:
While I agree that it is well-written and perfectly acceptable, don't be surprised that some people WILL be mad when you send this to them, or perhaps think the casting was a guise to solicit paid work.

http://stat.mobli.com/media_stills/media_6798671.jpg



At least you responded, which is worth a lot in and of itself. If you liked someone's port enough to give them a reasonable rate, i'm sure they'd be inclined to remember that and put you on the maybe list after trying to TF the FB picture collectors dries up.

Jan 03 13 07:39 pm Link

Photographer

All Yours Photography

Posts: 2340

Toledo, Ohio, US

GM Photography wrote:
Kudos to you for taking the time to respond to everyone.  Your response was very well written and polite, but adding the part about being available for paid work after casting for trade could be seen as a "bait and switch" tactic. 

I think had you stopped with this, you would have been golden:

"Thank you very much for your interest. Unfortunately, I received so many responses to my casting call that all of my available spots for trade have been filled, and all of the ideas I wanted to shoot have been taken."

This.

Jan 03 13 07:41 pm Link

Model

J Jessica

Posts: 2339

Palm Beach Gardens, Florida, US

Half a million responses = 500,000 responses = a LOT = yikes

Wow!

Jan 03 13 07:42 pm Link