Forums > Hair, Makeup & Styling > make up for free

Photographer

Ann Wuyten Photography

Posts: 6

Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to inform myself on how common it is in other countries for make-up artists to work for free ?

I live in Belgium myself, and am getting a little bit frustrated at times that so many photographers and models are looking for free make-up (tfp or tfcd..).

Even if you are doing photography or modelling just as a hobby, can you expect make-up artists doing the same ? 

Is this very common in your countries ?


ciao ciaooo
Anneke

Jan 13 13 08:04 am Link

Photographer

Anthony J Deffina

Posts: 80

Shingle Springs, California, US

They aren't looking for make-up for free. It's in trade. Services for services.

Jan 13 13 08:15 am Link

Photographer

AJ_In_Atlanta

Posts: 12836

Atlanta, Georgia, US

I don't know any who work for free, tons who work for trade with me but never free...

Jan 13 13 08:21 am Link

Photographer

Ann Wuyten Photography

Posts: 6

Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium

With for free, I meant TFP, TFCD etc... for me that is working for no money so for free.

Jan 13 13 08:44 am Link

Photographer

Anthony J Deffina

Posts: 80

Shingle Springs, California, US

Ann Wuyten Photography wrote:
With for free, I meant TFP, TFCD etc... for me that is working for no money so for free.

What you are working for are prints/cd of the shoot that shows your work. That is not working for free. The photographers work is just as valuable as the MUA's. As is everyone elses involved.

Jan 13 13 08:59 am Link

Photographer

M Pandolfo Photography

Posts: 12116

Tampa, Florida, US

Ann Wuyten Photography wrote:
With for free, I meant TFP, TFCD etc... for me that is working for no money so for free.

If you perform a trade shoot and you're describe that as "giving images for free" you're saying that the services of others involved have no value.

Nobody is working for free. Free means you are receiving nothing of value in return for your services. Absence of money doesn't make something free. Trade is just an alternate form of compensation.

If you performed a photography job for BMW Motors and they compensated you with a 2013 535i...would you say you worked for free?

Jan 13 13 09:04 am Link

Photographer

ME_

Posts: 3146

Atlanta, Georgia, US

Ann Wuyten Photography wrote:
Even if you are doing photography or modelling just as a hobby, can you expect make-up artists doing the same ?

Yes. Why would hobbyist makeup artists be different from hobbyist photographers and models?

Also, if you are frustrated with others wanting makeup artists to work on trade jobs, you could always just pay them. I'm sure they'd be agreeable.

Jan 13 13 09:07 am Link

Photographer

Ann Wuyten Photography

Posts: 6

Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium

I am a make-up artist myself.

Doing make-up is hardly just a hobby... as photography is for most... we didnt take courses to keep it as a hobby, that's what I meant.  But I guess it common all over the world then... ok.

Jan 13 13 09:12 am Link

Photographer

Ann Wuyten Photography

Posts: 6

Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium

Receiving a car... what a comparison... that is a paid job for me, because that car is worth lots of money... the pictures are not worth that much !  lol

Jan 13 13 09:14 am Link

Photographer

M Pandolfo Photography

Posts: 12116

Tampa, Florida, US

Ann Wuyten Photography wrote:
I am a make-up artist myself.

Doing make-up is hardly just a hobby... as photography is for most... we didnt take courses to keep it as a hobby, that's what I meant.  But I guess it common all over the world then... ok.

You seem to have a lot of trouble stepping outside of your own views and seeing it from any other perspective.

Make-up is more than a hobby to you because you took courses. But photography for most IS a hobby. That's a little self-absorbed and condescending don't you think?

If I took a course in photography that makes me more deserving of being paid? The answer to that would be a no.

Jan 13 13 09:16 am Link

Photographer

M Pandolfo Photography

Posts: 12116

Tampa, Florida, US

Ann Wuyten Photography wrote:
Receiving a car... what a comparison... that is a paid job for me, because that car is worth lots of money... the pictures are not worth that much !  lol

Well there you have it. And therein lies your problem. Whose fault is it that the images are worthless?

Jan 13 13 09:17 am Link

Photographer

ME_

Posts: 3146

Atlanta, Georgia, US

Ann Wuyten Photography wrote:
I am a make-up artist myself.

Doing make-up is hardly just a hobby... as photography is for most... we didnt take courses to keep it as a hobby, that's what I meant.  But I guess it common all over the world then... ok.

I know many professional makeup artists who have never taken a makeup course in their lives, and others who are doing it as nothing other than a hobby. It sounds like you're saying that MUAs are somehow always "professional" and others are merely doing this for a lark, and honestly that sounds both arrogant and very strange. Makeup artists don't have a monopoly on formal training.

Everyone wants to be paid and not to pay for anything, but it is mathematically impossible for that to happen. I am fairly sure that on this site at least, makeup artists are by far the member of the team who gets paid the most often, when everyone else is working for trade. If you are not finding those jobs, maybe your market is saturated by talented artists and so there is not much need to pay anyone, as many will do it for trade; or few want to pay you because your work is not of for-pay caliber yet. Or, you are not doing the kind of jobs that are going to be paid. You need to find commercial jobs in print or TV/film if you want to have the most chance of being paid - those "hobbyist" models and photographers are not usually going to be signing your checks, just like "hobbyist" makeup artists are not going to want to pay a commercial photography studio for pictures.

Jan 13 13 09:24 am Link

Photographer

Ann Wuyten Photography

Posts: 6

Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium

When I started I did those free jobs lots.. just like all starting make-up artists do... they need pictures for their portfolios, that's the only reason why most of them do that.

So photographers that find it too expensive will turn to the starting artists over and over again... it makes me feel like the old wife being exchanged for the younger ones. LOL
I don't think it is right... it is using people because you can't afford your hobby or profession (whatever).  No one will ever change my mind there, you are right...sorry.

No one goes out to work for free, even all of you.

Jan 13 13 09:31 am Link

Photographer

Ann Wuyten Photography

Posts: 6

Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium

I rather do the make-up myself then... before I start begging people to work for free for me.. if I cannot afford... and so I do both the photography plus the make-up if needed.

Jan 13 13 09:32 am Link

Makeup Artist

Linda Chudomelova

Posts: 133

Prague, Prague, Czech Republic

Ann Wuyten Photography wrote:
Receiving a car... what a comparison... that is a paid job for me, because that car is worth lots of money... the pictures are not worth that much !  lol

We're beating a dead horse that's been killed over and over like a gazillion times.

If you worked for free as a MUA, that would mean you would go in, do a model's makeup and then leave. Receiving no photos for your portfolio, website, book... That is working for free.

If you do agree to do a TFP/TFCD job, then you are agreeing to do a trade into which everyone volunteers their time, talent, effort and possibly supplies to enrich their portfolio with an image that they otherwise wouldn't be able to get.

If that has no value to you and the only thing that has value for you is money, then by all means, do not shoot TF*. I'm sure that if you are good, there's a market for paid jobs in Belgium or Benelux overall, and work will find you.

Jan 13 13 09:38 am Link

Photographer

B R U N E S C I

Posts: 25319

Bath, England, United Kingdom

Ann Wuyten Photography wrote:
With for free, I meant TFP, TFCD etc... for me that is working for no money so for free.

Then you are looking at it all wrong.

On the other hand, I could pay you your day rate and if you want pictures you could pay me my day rate. I don't think that would work out very well for you financially though wink

Ann Wuyten Photography wrote:
No one will ever change my mind.

In that case you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Enjoy! lol

Edit: I just noticed this in your photography profile:-

I 'm always interested in collaborations with models, photographers,wardrobe stylists and fashion designers

By "collaboration", do you mean you're willing to pay everybody in cash? If not, then you're being a little hypocritical I think.

You might also want to post a thread in the Critique forum from your MUA profile, just to see what people think of your work and whether they think you should always be paid in cash rather than images.



Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

Jan 13 13 09:38 am Link

Photographer

Anthony J Deffina

Posts: 80

Shingle Springs, California, US

Ann Wuyten Photography wrote:
I rather do the make-up myself then... before I start begging people to work for free for me.. if I cannot afford... and so I do both the photography plus the make-up if needed.

Then that's the solution for you but you can't expect the rest of the world to follow.

You seem to feel that it was okay for you to do trade when you were starting out but it's not okay for others. You also seem to feel that you're "above" trading now. However there are plenty of very talented photographers, MUA's, hair stylests, designers, editors that still do trade, so you may ask yourself why they do.

Jan 13 13 09:53 am Link

Photographer

ME_

Posts: 3146

Atlanta, Georgia, US

Your whole rant doesn't make sense. You don't want others to do the exact same thing you did.

Jan 13 13 10:05 am Link

Photographer

M Pandolfo Photography

Posts: 12116

Tampa, Florida, US

Free.

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

~Inigo Montoya

Jan 13 13 12:15 pm Link

Makeup Artist

Dani Jaye

Posts: 319

Princeton, New Jersey, US

-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:

Ann Wuyten Photography wrote:
With for free, I meant TFP, TFCD etc... for me that is working for no money so for free.

Then you are looking at it all wrong.

On the other hand, I could pay you your day rate and if you want pictures you could pay me my day rate. I don't think that would work out very well for you financially though wink

Ann Wuyten Photography wrote:
No one will ever change my mind.

In that case you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Enjoy! lol

Edit: I just noticed this in your photography profile:-

By "collaboration", do you mean you're willing to pay everybody in cash? If not, then you're being a little hypocritical I think.

You might also want to post a thread in the Critique forum from your MUA profile, just to see what people think of your work and whether they think you should always be paid in cash rather than images.


Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

+1000000000

Jan 13 13 12:31 pm Link

Makeup Artist

Dani Jaye

Posts: 319

Princeton, New Jersey, US

I'm picking up a tone from the OP that leaves me feeling confused, slightly annoyed and ultimately sorry for her. 
Clearly she has a healthy image of her work and thinks it's da bomb and has no need for testing (because she's seemingly done it ALL) or simply just growing in knowledge by working on as many faces as possible.

Not only do I find value in working on as many faces as possible to grow in my artistry (always such a unique canvas-how can you not see this?) but also to REALLY take in and learn the human form.  Your missing the bigger picture: opportunities to grow as an artist and an individual. Plus meeting fabulous people you would otherwise miss out on!
Everyone, no matter the "caliber" of the artist, has room to grow and improve.  I've learned lessons (good and bad) from every single TFP I have worked.

TFP is NOT free. 
You are working as a team to bring together something beautiful.  When you choose the right partners you get final shots that not only bolster your book but also serve as wonderful reminders of where you have been and where you want to be.

I actually always feel for the photographers.  IMO they have the heavier work load with : set up, shooting (which requires knowledge and emotional energy), breakdown especially if on location, then they get to choose, edit, retouch and Dropbox them them all to everyone involved. 

Based on the images I've seen, I think TFP may be exactly what is in order. I say open your mind to these possibilities and watch magic happen as these "free" shots will get you the better paying jobs through better images in your book.

Jan 13 13 12:56 pm Link

Makeup Artist

House of Westenra

Posts: 41

Louisville, Kentucky, US

Ann Wuyten Photography wrote:
the pictures are not worth that much !  lol

I'm surprised to hear that coming from someone who, according to your profile and avatar, is a photographer herself.

So, if I am clear, you are getting frustrated with everyone asking you to do MUA work on a TFP/TFCD basis.  Is that correct?

How do you feel when one approaches you and asks to do photography on a TFP/TFCD basis?  Do you not put as much time, thought, energy, and work into your photography as you do your makeup?

Jan 13 13 02:33 pm Link

Photographer

J O H N A L L A N

Posts: 10331

Santa Ana, California, US

You might want to post from your makeup artist account in the critique section to get some helpful feedback on choosing the best images for your collateral.
It might also help you in identifying what work is valuable to you on trade and which work isn't.

Jan 13 13 03:27 pm Link

Body Painter

Lisa Berczel

Posts: 4000

Corona, California, US

Using myself as an example....

I'll only TFP if the Portfolios of the Photographer, Makeup, Hair, Wardrobe and Model gives me reason to believe that the project will ADD to my book.

So, part of being an Artist is being able to take a critical eye to our own work and be able to realistically asses where we stand in the food chain.

Jan 13 13 04:43 pm Link

Makeup Artist

LC Makeup and Styling

Posts: 90

Perth, Western Australia, Australia

"the pictures are not worth that much !  lol"

Good luck finding anyone that will work with you now. What a bad attitude!  So basicallly you're saying the photographers work is crap and you'd rather have the money than photos? Whats the point of doing the makeup for a photoshoot and not wanting the photos? Because according to you, they're not worth it. Bah! Bad attitude!

Jan 13 13 11:41 pm Link

Model

allison mindy

Posts: 1495

New York, New York, US

Ann Wuyten Photography wrote:
With for free, I meant TFP, TFCD etc... for me that is working for no money so for free.

All of my MUAs work trade unless a client has hired us both. However, I don't consider trade working for free. I would never ask someone to do something that I didn't feel was mutually beneficial.

Jan 13 13 11:54 pm Link

Photographer

KA Style

Posts: 1583

Syracuse, New York, US

You want to make money doing MU.. Get into bridal/event makeup.

Doing makeup for models is profitable only in select areas really.. I never made much money working with models. select photographers/models know its worth it and paid. My money came from bridal and events along with some commercial jobs. The commercial jobs came from them finding my website advertising bridal MU. I also got referral work.

As others have said trade is bartering, its not free. Cash does not have to exchange hands. You exchanged time/talent instead. They got MU you got photos.

Never use the word free ever. If you work a job for a charity or the like say you are donating your service, not Im giving free makeup work. Nothing in life is free, you always pay some where, some how..

I never TF for MU anymore as I can just shoot my own work but I do trade with models for shoots still here and there.

Jan 14 13 10:08 am Link

Photographer

Section 008

Posts: 98

Chicago, Illinois, US

Ann Wuyten Photography wrote:
Hi everyone,

I just wanted to inform myself on how common it is in other countries for make-up artists to work for free ?

I live in Belgium myself, and am getting a little bit frustrated at times that so many photographers and models are looking for free make-up (tfp or tfcd..).

Even if you are doing photography or modelling just as a hobby, can you expect make-up artists doing the same ? 

Is this very common in your countries ?


ciao ciaooo
Anneke

trade but if the mua doesnt get any pics they have worked for free

Jan 14 13 10:29 am Link

Makeup Artist

Visa Madlen G

Posts: 2

Dresden, Saxony, Germany

Your very poor at some corner. Pictures are a lot of work - for everybody who is involved and especially the time afterward, when the photographer is doing the retouching and finish.

If u want do get into the money thing: do (as said before) bridal and event make up AND do the privat clients (for expl family pics, working sheets, companys when the photographer needs to get the team pictured, and so on).

Jan 15 13 01:42 pm Link

Photographer

Dannielle Levan

Posts: 12857

New Westminster, British Columbia, Canada

Anthony J Deffina wrote:
They aren't looking for make-up for free. It's in trade. Services for services.

This. Unless you consider the photos worthless, in which case, you should have checked their port, haha smile

Jan 15 13 02:00 pm Link

Photographer

Farenell Photography

Posts: 18135

Albany, New York, US

Ann Wuyten Photography wrote:
Even if you are doing photography or modelling just as a hobby, can you expect make-up artists doing the same ? 

Is this very common in your countries ?

Respectfully, what did you expect?

In a commercial situation (I'm defining that as where money is exchanged for services), the customer/client will try to get the best deal they can on terms they ca live w/.

One of the solutions is to offer a superior product that the client feels compelled to hire you that they can't get anywhere else.

Jan 15 13 02:38 pm Link

Makeup Artist

Tara Pagliara MUA

Posts: 704

New York, New York, US

I am really confused by this ENTIRE THREAD lol.

Jan 15 13 03:20 pm Link