Forums > Model Colloquy > no photos back because photographer is unhappy? :L

Model

EmGii

Posts: 151

Rancho Cucamonga, California, US

Patrick Walberg wrote:

You certainly don't need to read the brunt of the 4 pages, Michael, and for the most part, I agree with you on the OP.

Even though the OP has not been back to post, I hope she is reading answers such as yours.   You are correct in saying that "In order for TF to work, both parties should get something ..."  Since nearly half the shoots I do are "TFP" I take it seriously.  This is a different situation than when testing, or when one party is getting paid.   At the very least, the photographer owes the model some clear communication even if a complete disaster struck ... as memory cards can get deleted and computer hard drives can crash among other things that can happen! 

Often times I will show the models the images on my camera at some point during or after a shoot.  It can be very educational in my opinion.  However the digital age has brought photographers such a convenience, it can also work against us.  Sometimes I miss the days when film was our only choice, because what we see on the camera is NOT always going to look like the finished product.  In fact, most times it does not!  So when I do show the images of a shoot to a model, I remind her of that fact. 

About reshoots ... I disagree with you on that one!  There are times when a reshoot maybe acceptable.  I do agree that if a TFP session results in no acceptable images that the photographer should at least compensate for the models time with some sort of payment, but depending on the circumstances and the working relationship between the photographer and model, a reshoot is possible.  Back in the days when we shot film, people were more understanding to that.  Again, it goes back to that one word I keep harping about "Communication!"

i'm reading. (: i'm keeping everything in mind.

Jan 16 13 07:50 pm Link

Model

n p

Posts: 257

New York, New York, US

I feel for you girl sad
Had the same thing happen to me.
I'm sorry you ended up with none or close to nothing for your port.

Jan 16 13 07:53 pm Link

Model

EmGii

Posts: 151

Rancho Cucamonga, California, US

Nicole Packs  wrote:
I feel for you girl sad
Had the same thing happen to me.
I'm sorry you ended up with none or close to nothing for your port.

it happens i guess. i feel evil, i'm so tempted to link her to this thread but that'd be kinda mean.

Jan 16 13 07:57 pm Link

Photographer

PhotoVideoStory

Posts: 3

Camarillo, California, US

GM Photography wrote:
If she felt the photos were bad due to her actions, she should offer a re-shoot or some other form of compensation for your time.

Absolutely!  "She is so sweet" doesn't justify no product / no reshoot.

Jan 16 13 08:01 pm Link

Model

Jordan L Duncan

Posts: 207

Jacksonville, Florida, US

EmGii wrote:

it happens i guess. i feel evil, i'm so tempted to link her to this thread but that'd be kinda mean.

I think its kinda mean that she wasted your time and was lol about it.

Jan 16 13 08:52 pm Link

Model

Olivia Clemens

Posts: 96

Los Angeles, California, US

This has happened to me before, too. Very frustrating to do a trade shoot and never get any images, but oh well.

Jan 16 13 08:57 pm Link

Model

n p

Posts: 257

New York, New York, US

EmGii wrote:
it happens i guess. i feel evil, i'm so tempted to link her to this thread but that'd be kinda mean.

Haha! I know what you mean!
I wanted to send one long e-mail of venting to this photag I worked with but I decided not to. I just never spoke/worked with her again.
My story in short:
We had shot together before. I liked her and she liked me and we did TFP. Both are ports were benefited. Plus I got to see all the photos from the shoot like I had requested! Which was great because seeing the photos lets me learn from my mistakes and grow as a model. I have never posted her work without credit (bc that was her concern) and I posted what we mutually agreed on that I can use because she was really concerned for her "photographer's reputation". She didn't want me posting a photo she wasn't proud of. Fine.
After shooting together like three times, she offered another shoot at a another location bc I was a model she was most comfortable working with.
We didn't even talk of TFP for this shoot because I (mistakenly) assumed it would be just like our other past shoots! Logical though process considering how smoothly everything ran before, right?
Nope sad.
After hours of shooting and more than a month of waiting she sent me a small handful of photos of HER choosing which were not beneficial to my port at all. I asked her how come she didn't send me or show me photos like we had did on our other shoots.  "My policy has changed." I would of loved to know that before the shoot! I mean I provided wardrobe and makeup and the whole hootenany. I worked really hard to make great photos and I was given photos of what I felt were my worst poses? That wasn't fair.
I tried to come to agreement with her and after a lot of what seemed like huffing and puffing she agreed to send me a contact sheet.
The contact sheet had really grainy and tiny photos and I can barely see my pose or facial expression. I asked her if I can have some photos of my port from my choosing? "I'll see what I can do."
The photos I chose, were some of the best looks I've ever pulled off. Didn't get them. One photo I was sure I was going to use on my comp card she could not send me because she didn't like "the lighting on my hand."
I was heart broken sad But I wasn't going to beg for the photos.
They were sent really late with no prior notification of her sudden change of policy.
I use one photo from the shoot as a filler but its not my proudest.
I don't think photag understands that a model's perspective on photos is different from photographer's perspective.
And to be honest, even IF the lighting on that hand was indeed awkward (I don't know, the photo was too small for me to tell) a possible agent of mine wouldn't be looking that the hand has light on it, they are looking at my pose.
I guess I'll never understand why she turned.

Jan 16 13 09:11 pm Link

Photographer

Loki Studio

Posts: 3024

Royal Oak, Michigan, US

Star wrote:
clients pay me

Do you tell your models that you test with "Investing your modeling talents in our test shoot has zero value to me and in fact I may not give you any images in trade after all."?

Jan 17 13 05:10 am Link

Photographer

291

Posts: 11911

SEQUOIA NATIONAL PARK, California, US

Star wrote:
clients pay me

Loki Studio wrote:
Do you tell your llamas that you test with "Investing your llamaing talents in our test shoot has zero value to me and in fact I may not give you any images in trade after all."?

seems to be a confusion of terms here by interchanging test and trade.

a test, whether that's for lighting or other gear, should not carry the same expectation for producing marketable imaging due to pushing some limits rather than pursuing marketable imaging quality.  if such quality works, fine.  if it doesn't, there's still value in working the craft, it just doesn't come from pictures.

the collaboration for trading with the intent of producing marketable imaging is at best a hobbyist approach.  it's a false sense of economic value based on shot in the dark speculation.  professionals simply don't operate that way if they have any business sense.  they are paid to create marketable imaging or they compensate those to create the imaging (such as stock photography) without providing images at all due to sullying the market value of what's produced.

there's also this false notion that images equal the only form of payment for tf*.  the pictures themselves through tf* are simply an earned benefit in trading one's time through speculation which may or may not produce expected results.  if the speculation does not produce marketable imaging results in the trade there is still value in the sense of one working toward learning and improving the craft.

tf* is a learning process and not an earning process.  to wit, if the llama sucks then where is the value in pictures for the photographer?  there isn't, the value for the photographer is the learning process to give better direction. 

if the photography sucks where is the value in pictures for the llama?  there isn't, the value for the llama was learning new methods for movement and extending emotion. 

in both cases the value becomes the learning experience and not in the results of actual pictures.  for both parties through learning the craft if "lightning in a bottle" is captured then all the better.  however, if that's the expectation then that is reserved for compensation for those who can meet that expectation each and every time which defines the difference between professional from the hobbyist.

if, for either party, the only value received through a tf* collaboration is getting pictures then i dare say you're doing it wrong.

Jan 17 13 07:12 am Link

Photographer

Viator Defessus Photos

Posts: 1127

College Station, Texas, US

Nicole Packs  wrote:
We didn't even talk of TFP for this shoot because I (mistakenly) assumed it would be just like our other past shoots! Logical though process considering how smoothly everything ran before, right?
Nope sad.
After hours of shooting and more than a month of waiting she sent me a small handful of photos of HER choosing which were not beneficial to my port at all. I asked her how come she didn't send me or show me photos like we had did on our other shoots.  "My policy has changed." I would of loved to know that before the shoot! I mean I provided wardrobe and makeup and the whole hootenany. I worked really hard to make great photos and I was given photos of what I felt were my worst poses? That wasn't fair.

There are times when letting the llama see the unedited photos can leave you seriously burned. I've had llamas really abuse it in the past and I've had to adjust accordingly. It's possible that another llama did something that she didn't like and she just said "no more." I've considered it several times myself. It seems wrong though to punish a reliable llama for the abuses of another. You're right, IMO, that she should have given you some forewarning of a new arrangement. It's odd that she had fast to it with someone that hasn't abused the access in the past.

Jan 17 13 12:46 pm Link

Photographer

Star

Posts: 17958

Los Angeles, California, US

Loki Studio wrote:

Do you tell your models that you test with "Investing your modeling talents in our test shoot has zero value to me and in fact I may not give you any images in trade after all."?

I don't call them clients that is for sure.

Your other statement has no relevance to my first statement so I am choosing to ignore it as trolling.

Jan 17 13 01:08 pm Link

Photographer

The Signature Image

Posts: 12055

Gorham, Maine, US

D S P wrote:
Sorry to hear that. Even when we experiment with new techniques or lighting, we do play it safe and shoot some stuff to cover our asses so that all involved get something useable out of the shoot.

That comment should end the thread.

Before I do a test or trade to test lighting I set up my "test model" (a dummy really), set the lighting and shoot test shots. When shoot day comes I have a good idea of what will work and what will not?

For a test I shoot 100 to 150 shots. Of that number I get 25-40 good shots to send to the model.

Trade means both model and photographer get a fair shake.

Jan 17 13 01:27 pm Link

Photographer

Pantaleoni Photographer

Posts: 79

San Diego, California, US

Ummm.  "TRADE," yes?  Meaning you gave your time and effort in exchange for (at least) jpgs of the shoot, no?

I'll suggest letting the photographer know she (yes? a she?) owes you those pictures.  She made a deal.  You kept your part of it.  She should/ought to as well.  If she hates them 'that much' what's she going to give you instead?

I just finished a (pay) shoot where I'm pretty well disgusted with my ineptitude as a photographer.  But.  I did offer the jpgs to the model and if she wants them, she gets them.  (And hope she doesn't dislike them as much as I do.... blush, cringe)

Jan 17 13 03:19 pm Link

Model

Jen B

Posts: 3187

Hopkinsville, Kentucky, US

EmGii wrote:

it happens i guess. i feel evil, i'm so tempted to link her to this thread but that'd be kinda mean.

Wow,

Not only mean but drama filled. Why bother her? She didn't do a good enough job on the shots to release them. Then for whatever reason she didn't have the gumption to tell you sooner.

Give her a break. Don't bust her butt.

Sheesh. It happens.
Jen

Jan 17 13 04:36 pm Link

Model

Rosemarie Bennet

Posts: 144

Warrington, Pennsylvania, US

Caustic Disco wrote:
um, that's shitty, it's not a trade if you get NOTHING.

This.

Jan 17 13 04:39 pm Link

Model

EmGii

Posts: 151

Rancho Cucamonga, California, US

MyrnaByrna wrote:

Wow,

Not only mean but drama filled. Why bother her? She didn't do a good enough job on the shots to release them. Then for whatever reason she didn't have the gumption to tell you sooner.

Give her a break. Don't bust her butt.

Sheesh. It happens.
Jen

don't worry, i was just joking around. she's super sweet, i just wish i could see how my expressions were. >o

Jan 17 13 05:06 pm Link

Model

Amber Dawn - Colorado

Posts: 6250

Castle Rock, Colorado, US

Iv had it happen opposite though I didn't like any of the Pictures the Photographer took. You did a trade shoot I assume. So you should ask to see the images see if you like them its only professional for the Photographer to send you some images on a trade.

Jan 17 13 06:22 pm Link

Photographer

Star

Posts: 17958

Los Angeles, California, US

Colorado Model Amber wrote:
its only professional for the Photographer to send you some images on a trade.

professionals don't usually do tf*, we do tests which may or may not yield results. Most likely the photographer was not a professional photographer and that is why they were not able to get any images from the shoot.

Jan 17 13 11:24 pm Link

Photographer

Mirror With A Memory

Posts: 287

New York, New York, US

Piss Poor Planning Promotes Piss Poor Performance.

Jan 17 13 11:38 pm Link

Photographer

TJ Photo

Posts: 84

Pomona, California, US

Something about this is strange and vexing.  The OP keeps saying how the photographer is so sweet, yet she apparently took months after the shoot before bothering to inform the model there'd be no photos forthcoming.  This is unprofessional and discourteous.  Not sweet. 

A test shoot doesn't always end up well, and it's not uncommon for one or both parties to be at least somewhat dissatisfied.  That I can live with.  But not bothering to communicate about the results after working together--that's just rude.

Jan 17 13 11:51 pm Link

Makeup Artist

Cynna Stylz MUA

Posts: 217

New York, New York, US

My father used to always say...Don't take my niceness for stupidity! Basically no matter how nice a person is, don't let them play dumb with your time. How will you feel if you see the pics on Facebook one day? So please try to get the photos that were promised because even if you never use them for your port  then you can
learn from them to get better.

Jan 17 13 11:54 pm Link

Photographer

Kev Lawson

Posts: 7977

Las Vegas, Nevada, US

EmGii wrote:
it happens i guess. i feel evil, i'm so tempted to link her to this thread but that'd be kinda mean.

You never know, there are members that just read and do not respond to threads. For the first 3 years I was a member here, I might have posted in 30 or 40 threads; I tended to just read everything and not respond.

She may have read this by now as long as this thread has gone. Maybe she will all of a sudden decide to send you a link to proof sheets of the images.

I personally believe that even if a photographer is unhappy with the results, even if it is their own fault the images were not up to par that they should share the images with the team (when more than just a model is involved) for review. Or just the model if it is strictly a model/photographer collaboration.

We all learn from our mistakes and can take in what we should have done and use that knowledge in the future. smile

Jan 17 13 11:55 pm Link

Photographer

ShotbyRon

Posts: 767

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US

I don't understand how the lighting could be bad in every single picture. I'm still new to this, so maybe I'm doing things different from the norm. But I always snap a few pictures with slightly different settings, just to make sure everything is to my liking. I even stop and do small breaks to show the models the images and making sure everything is coming out to our standards.

I would demand the photographer give you something! The agreement was it was a TF shoot. So you should get something for your time! And if they are really all that bad, maybe she should just pay you? I know that is what I'd do. Even if it's just throwing out enough to cover gas and a little extra. I'd rather be a few bucks lighter in the pocket and have my model happy, then have a rep as a shady photographer.

Jan 18 13 12:36 am Link

Model

Jen B

Posts: 3187

Hopkinsville, Kentucky, US

EmGii wrote:
don't worry, i was just joking around. she's super sweet, i just wish i could see how my expressions were. >o

Jan 18 13 06:27 am Link

Photographer

Shayne F

Posts: 19

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

rp_photo wrote:

There is nothing lovely about that self-centered jerk!

IMHO, photographers do not have a monopoly on deciding what is good, and both sides should get to see everything in a trade shoot and have the opportunity to make selections.

+1
Totally agree .. I've lofted on getting edits out to models before but never months and if I don't like the shots I got due to something I messed up I think the photographer should offer to shoot you again or least give you the option of taking the messed up images.. Think it's dumb to just write off all photos just cause they aren't want she "wanted" but just my thoughts on it

Jan 18 13 06:54 am Link

Model

EmGii

Posts: 151

Rancho Cucamonga, California, US

Nicole Packs  wrote:

Haha! I know what you mean!
I wanted to send one long e-mail of venting to this photag I worked with but I decided not to. I just never spoke/worked with her again.
My story in short:
We had shot together before. I liked her and she liked me and we did TFP. Both are ports were benefited. Plus I got to see all the photos from the shoot like I had requested! Which was great because seeing the photos lets me learn from my mistakes and grow as a model. I have never posted her work without credit (bc that was her concern) and I posted what we mutually agreed on that I can use because she was really concerned for her "photographer's reputation". She didn't want me posting a photo she wasn't proud of. Fine.
After shooting together like three times, she offered another shoot at a another location bc I was a model she was most comfortable working with.
We didn't even talk of TFP for this shoot because I (mistakenly) assumed it would be just like our other past shoots! Logical though process considering how smoothly everything ran before, right?
Nope sad.
After hours of shooting and more than a month of waiting she sent me a small handful of photos of HER choosing which were not beneficial to my port at all. I asked her how come she didn't send me or show me photos like we had did on our other shoots.  "My policy has changed." I would of loved to know that before the shoot! I mean I provided wardrobe and makeup and the whole hootenany. I worked really hard to make great photos and I was given photos of what I felt were my worst poses? That wasn't fair.
I tried to come to agreement with her and after a lot of what seemed like huffing and puffing she agreed to send me a contact sheet.
The contact sheet had really grainy and tiny photos and I can barely see my pose or facial expression. I asked her if I can have some photos of my port from my choosing? "I'll see what I can do."
The photos I chose, were some of the best looks I've ever pulled off. Didn't get them. One photo I was sure I was going to use on my comp card she could not send me because she didn't like "the lighting on my hand."
I was heart broken sad But I wasn't going to beg for the photos.
They were sent really late with no prior notification of her sudden change of policy.
I use one photo from the shoot as a filler but its not my proudest.
I don't think photag understands that a model's perspective on photos is different from photographer's perspective.
And to be honest, even IF the lighting on that hand was indeed awkward (I don't know, the photo was too small for me to tell) a possible agent of mine wouldn't be looking that the hand has light on it, they are looking at my pose.
I guess I'll never understand why she turned.

awh. i'm sorry. /: no fun!

Jan 18 13 04:24 pm Link

Photographer

Bobby C

Posts: 1952

Portland, Oregon, US

this does not sound right or fair.

1) if the photographer admits it was his/her mistake, then you should get another photoshoot.
2) the photographer should at least show you the pics so you two can talk about it.
3) the photog can give you the pics and tell you not to credit him/her.

Feb 02 13 02:48 am Link

Model

Raven-Lily

Posts: 77

Eastbourne, England, United Kingdom

usually if a photographer is playing with lighting, location etc and are not sure how the photos will come out, then they offer paid work, simply because they know there maybe a chance that these pics are not portfolio worthy, so instantly offer pay, if in the end it works well, i get to have a handful of the shots even though they paid me, to them its an experiment, dont work TF if its a photographers experiment unless this is your own experiment and know you wont add these pics to your portfolio and the photographer is also willing to help you step into a genre you are not sure about.

Feb 02 13 03:31 am Link

Photographer

RKD Photographic

Posts: 3265

Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany

Raven-Lily wrote:
usually if a photographer is playing with lighting, location etc and are not sure how the photos will come out, then they offer paid work, simply because they know there maybe a chance that these pics are not portfolio worthy, so instantly offer pay, if in the end it works well, i get to have a handful of the shots even though they paid me, to them its an experiment, dont work TF if its a photographers experiment unless this is your own experiment and know you wont add these pics to your portfolio and the photographer is also willing to help you step into a genre you are not sure about.

Nope - I very often shoot tests with new camera or lighting equipment or attempt new lighting techniques as part of a TFP shoot - that said, I'll do some 'safe' shots for the model's port to be on the safe side, but she'll be told there are no guarantees with the experimental stuff.

What's the difference between a model 'experimenting' and a photographer 'experimenting' - you seem to be suggesting it's OK for the model to try out stuff that might not work but not the photographer - as long as both parties agree, I don't see a problem...

Feb 02 13 03:54 am Link

Photographer

Jim McSmith

Posts: 762

Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom

I don't think there's anything you can do. Put it down to experience. You could ask for a couple of the best shots and see what happens but otherwise there aint much you can do.

Feb 02 13 03:58 am Link

Model

Rachel-Elise

Posts: 1650

Grand Rapids, Michigan, US

T A Y L O R  wrote:
+100 This. You could message her and say, "I understand and respect that the images did not come out to your satisfaction. As this shoot was a trade for images however, and I did not receive any images, I'm going to have to ask that you either send me X number of edited images or pay my rates for the time we spent shooting, which are X."

This x1000000000

Feb 02 13 10:28 am Link

Photographer

WIP

Posts: 15547

Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom

Don't expect results unless it's a professional photographer... results are their job.

Feb 02 13 04:14 pm Link

Model

Mandie Stealthlynn

Posts: 14

Ashland, Ohio, US

No your rights, If you have a copy of a photo release form then read through it, If you have a past email regarding the shoot details and that it was TF* print it and if you want the photos bad enough take the forms and message prints to a lawyer, You have a case believe me.

I have had this problem in the past its why I am vary picky on who I shoot with for a TF* shoot...

Maybe you could tell him that you will make arrangements for a photo retoucher to fix lighting, if they are good quality other then light all that can be fixed, I'm a retoucher as well so I know.

Unless you want to take legal action remember you get more pees with honey so don't be rude or nasty be professional and kindly ask for them anyway, You as a model have many reasons you could state to the photographer as to why you need them, and for wanting them you don't really even need a reason because if your in the photos you have every right to them unless some binding contract says other wise.

I as a model like having my photos or at least a photo release form stating I worked for tax's and things like that.

Good luck
Mandie Stealthlynn

PS My smart phone isn't so smart, sorry for the miss wording lol

Dec 08 13 09:10 am Link

Photographer

Good Egg Productions

Posts: 15723

Orlando, Florida, US

Braaaaaaiiiinnnnnssssssss!!!!!

Zombie thread, OP is long gone from site.

Dec 08 13 09:17 am Link

Model

Mandie Stealthlynn

Posts: 14

Ashland, Ohio, US

EmGii wrote:

awh. i'm sorry. /: no fun!

She sounds vary unprofessional for not telling you of her changes, that or its PMS... lol
Sorry for your bad experience.

Dec 08 13 09:18 am Link

Model

Kelleth

Posts: 2528

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

That's a bummer.

Personally, if the photos were whack, I'd have no use for them so would understand receiving nothing. It really sucks to invest your time and effort and come out with nothing but it happens sometimes for reasons you can't control. Unless they were shooting film, I'd reconsider shooting with them again if they were unable to correct their lighting on the day.

Dec 08 13 01:20 pm Link

Model

Amber Dawn - Colorado

Posts: 6250

Castle Rock, Colorado, US

Did you ask to see any of the images? You need to remind her that it was a TRADE shoot you gave her the time to shoot you and you deserve images or at least look at them and see IF you like them at least. Photographers need to remember to play with the light while you are there do some practice images and get the lighting just right before actually taking the good images and maybe reviewing them as you go.

Dec 08 13 02:04 pm Link

Photographer

IrisSwope

Posts: 14857

Dallas, Texas, US

Amber Dawn  -  Colorado wrote:
Photographers need to remember to play with the light while you are there do some practice images and get the lighting just right before actually taking the good images and maybe reviewing them as you go.

Thanks for reminding us! haha

Dec 08 13 02:16 pm Link

Model

Amber Dawn - Colorado

Posts: 6250

Castle Rock, Colorado, US

IrisSwope wrote:

Thanks for reminding us! haha

Well Photographers do if this Model cant get images back because this photographer was using the wrong lighting and not checking to see if it was working for the images.

You cant just set up a lighting system and expect it to work for all types of shoots.

Check the images as you go, set up a laptop so you can see the images as they are being taken.

Dec 08 13 02:21 pm Link

Photographer

GPS Studio Services

Posts: 36389

San Francisco, California, US

http://www.jayleavitt.com/links/guide_forum_llama.gif

So everyone knows, this is a zombie thread.  If you post, you are replying to an OP who already left the site, i.e. removed her profile entirely.  She has no ideas you are making comments for you.

Dec 08 13 02:39 pm Link