This thread was locked on 2013-01-30 20:37:50
Forums > Model Colloquy > Should Models Take Courses In Make Up

Photographer

Jim McSmith

Posts: 774

Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom

Over the years I've met llamas who were great with make up and others completely hopeless. Now, providing a make up artist raises costs and so wouldn't it be great if llamas took beauty courses in order to improve make up skills. This would improve versatility greatly I think. Any thought on this matter are very welcome. Thank you.

Jan 30 13 05:16 am Link

Photographer

A-M-P

Posts: 18215

Orlando, Florida, US

Why don't photographer take that course on Makeup that way you cut your cost down instead. That's what I did now I can offer hair and makeup and keep the fee I would have usually had to give the MUA. I still use MUA for magazine work or big client work because it speeds up the process while I'm focusing on other things. But for tests and what not I now offer it myself. I know a few really good photographers who also offer the hair& makeup themselves.

Jan 30 13 05:27 am Link

Photographer

Jim McSmith

Posts: 774

Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom

A-M-P wrote:
why don't photographer take that course on Makeup that way you cut your cost down instead. That's what I did now I can offer hair and makeup and keep the fee I would have usually gave the MUA. I still use MUA for magazine work or big client work. But for tests and what not I now can do it myself.

Unfortunately where I live it would raise eyebrows unless you're noticeably gay. All the courses are filled with teenage girls and it would make people suspicious. It's more liberal minded in the US than here in the UK.

Jan 30 13 05:30 am Link

Photographer

Christopher Lewis

Posts: 218

Farmington Hills, Michigan, US

As a photographer and photography instructor, I have repeatedly hired the model who is good with her make-up, all other things being equal.  From a model's perspective skill in applying make-up does two things for non-MUA shoots.  Learning a little about hair also helps greatly.  First, she will have better, more flattering images in general, and head shots in particular.  Second, she will be more likely to be hired.  If a woman is serious about modeling, then invest the time to be much more photogenic.

Jan 30 13 05:32 am Link

Photographer

A-M-P

Posts: 18215

Orlando, Florida, US

Jim McSmith wrote:

Unfortunately where I live it would raise eyebrows unless you're noticeably gay. All the courses are filled with teenage girls and it would make people suspicious. It's more liberal minded in the US than here in the UK.

Really hmm  I know lots of male photographers  who do the makeup who cares what people think as long as you know you are not gay.

Jan 30 13 05:34 am Link

Model

Angel ONeill

Posts: 134

Venice, Veneto, Italy

Christopher Lewis wrote:
As a photographer and photography instructor, I have repeatedly hired the model who is good with her make-up, all other things being equal.  From a model's perspective skill in applying make-up does two things for non-MUA shoots.  Learning a little about hair also helps greatly.  First, she will have better, more flattering images in general, and head shots in particular.  Second, she will be more likely to be hired.  If a woman is serious about modeling, then invest the time to be much more photogenic.

Great advice

Jan 30 13 05:37 am Link

guide forum

Model

Anna Adrielle

Posts: 18763

Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium

how about you take a course

Jan 30 13 05:47 am Link

Photographer

AJ_In_Atlanta

Posts: 12885

Atlanta, Georgia, US

Christopher Lewis wrote:
As a photographer and photography instructor, I have repeatedly hired the model who is good with her make-up, all other things being equal.  From a model's perspective skill in applying make-up does two things for non-MUA shoots.  Learning a little about hair also helps greatly.  First, she will have better, more flattering images in general, and head shots in particular.  Second, she will be more likely to be hired.  If a woman is serious about modeling, then invest the time to be much more photogenic.

The problem I have is the non-MUA part, why would you do a shoot without one?

Jan 30 13 05:47 am Link

Model

Aylin Marie

Posts: 79

Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia

it wouldn't hurt to know some basics skills which would be great for basic glamour or art nudes etc, I'm hopeless with hair and screw mine up all the time haha
Knowing what works colour wise and blending would be a major plus.

Jan 30 13 05:53 am Link

Photographer

Ralph Easy

Posts: 6426

Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

It is hard to put make up on one's self, more so being a MUA for one's self.

For others, maybe yes, recommendable... but there is a tug of war between modeling and doing MUA...

Either they will love the one and leave the other behind in development.

It is hard to serve two masters.

.

Jan 30 13 05:58 am Link

Photographer

Undead Threads

Posts: 574

Greenville, South Carolina, US

A-M-P wrote:
Why don't photographer take that course on Makeup that way you cut your cost down instead. T

I've been thinking about taking one. It sounds like a good idea.

Jan 30 13 06:02 am Link

Photographer

Marc Damon

Posts: 6562

Biloxi, Mississippi, US

imo... Everyone who wants to be successful in this industry of internet modeling should be well rounded and know at least the basics of everyone's job (not just mua) and be able to do them well. It can only help. That being said, failure to plan on your part doesn't create an emergency on my part. Things like this should be discussed during the planning phase of a shoot. I don't expect any model to show up with mad mua skillz unless we have discussed it prior to the shoot.

Jan 30 13 06:33 am Link

Model

Sullen Garbo Siren

Posts: 11

Atlanta, Georgia, US

Jim McSmith wrote:

Unfortunately where I live it would raise eyebrows unless you're noticeably gay. All the courses are filled with teenage girls and it would make people suspicious. It's more liberal minded in the US than here in the UK.

If someone is really concerned, just say that you're doing it to assist with your photography business, which is exactly what you're doing. Also, you don't have to tell anyone outside the class that you're doing it.

Jan 30 13 07:45 am Link

Model

Rachel-Elise

Posts: 1655

Grand Rapids, Michigan, US

I'm actually a professional in the areas of skincare and makeup, and I've noticed that it helps me get hired, because people realize that they now won't have to hire a makeup artist as well. However, it does get tiring to always have that responsibility--girls who know how to do their own makeup like to get pampered once in a while, too! wink

This is a bit off-track, but my professional makeup classes are what saved a shoot one time, even though it was me who almost ruined it, anyway: I was in the worst stages of non-hospitalized pneumonia, but we couldn't reschedule because of the designer... so my superhero power of highlighter-application totally saved the day. wink

Jan 30 13 08:07 am Link

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Model

Koryn

Posts: 37162

Boston, Massachusetts, US

Jim McSmith wrote:
Unfortunately where I live it would raise eyebrows unless you're noticeably gay. All the courses are filled with teenage girls and it would make people suspicious. It's more liberal minded in the US than here in the UK.

A-M-P wrote:
Really hmm  I know lots of male photographers  who do the makeup who cares what people think as long as you know you are not gay.

I think he's saying that he does not want people to think he's taking the classes in order to be around under-aged girls.

Jan 30 13 08:14 am Link

Model

Jojo West

Posts: 972

Washington, District of Columbia, US

Maybe you should take a make-up class so you don't have to worry about it. Besides it seems kind of silly that a grown man is worried about "what people will think" because he's taking a make-up class.

Keep in mind that everyone's trade skills are different, some people just don't have what it takes to be an MUA. Taking a photography class doesn't make you a good photographer, same applies, to hair, make-up and modeling.

Jan 30 13 08:17 am Link

Photographer

Mark Salo

Posts: 8704

Olney, Maryland, US

Jim McSmith wrote:
Over the years I've met models who were great with make up and others completely hopeless. Now, providing a make up artist raises costs and so wouldn't it be great if models took beauty courses in order to improve make up skills. This would improve versatility greatly I think. Any thought on this matter are very welcome. Thank you.

Still telling models what to do!

Jan 30 13 08:17 am Link

Photographer

photo212grapher

Posts: 1592

Saint Louis, Missouri, US

A-M-P wrote:
why don't photographer take that course on Makeup that way you cut your cost down instead. That's what I did now I can offer hair and makeup and keep the fee I would have usually gave the MUA. I still use MUA for magazine work or big client work. But for tests and what not I now can do it myself.

Jim McSmith wrote:
Unfortunately where I live it would raise eyebrows unless you're noticeably gay. All the courses are filled with teenage girls and it would make people suspicious. It's more liberal minded in the US than here in the UK.

A-M-P has great advice for you. You should do this. Does it matter if a dozen teenage girls think you are gay? You do not need to broadcast that your taking the course to everyone at the pub. Just go.

Jan 30 13 08:17 am Link

Model

Jojo West

Posts: 972

Washington, District of Columbia, US

Mark Salo wrote:

Still telling models what to do!

If there's something we've (models) learned from this forum, is which photographer to avoid. Lol. smile

Jan 30 13 08:20 am Link

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Model

Koryn

Posts: 37162

Boston, Massachusetts, US

Jim McSmith wrote:
... wouldn't it be great if models took beauty courses in order to improve make up skills....

Sure, if you paid for the classes. Don't expect models to just go do unnecessary things, just because *you* want them to, for your shoots -- when they clearly do not need to make those same investments to please other people.

I was never able to do "professional" looking make-up on myself, but it certainly never hurt my ability to find work, when I was shooting for income. If someone wanted me to have specific make-up, they either provided an MUA (rare), or did it themselves (some photographers, as others have mentioned, are good with make-up, own decent kits, airbrush make up guns, and whatnot). Otherwise, I just applied a daily wear foundation, concealer, and some generic eye make-up, in colors somewhat darker than I would normally wear.  Did it that way for years. No one ever complained.

You seem to expect models to invest far more money into preparing for your shoots, than you expect to invest in accessing their services. You always talk about having a limited budget, but is YOUR shoot worth, to a large group of models, paying for make-up classes, and buying a kit? Unless you're offering them some sort of financial compensation that exceeds their initial investment ... then no, probably not...

That's just bad business sense.

Jan 30 13 08:21 am Link

Artist/Painter

MainePaintah

Posts: 1822

Saco, Maine, US

I say why stop at making llamas learn just makeup?

I say every llama should also have to take photography lessons!

Then in a few years, all the llamas will be doing each others hair and make-up, and then TFPing with other llamas for photoshoots!

Then there will be no photographers left on MM, just us artists will be around to hire beautiful llamas!
Heh, heh, heh! "rubs hands together like Mr. Burns on the Simpsons  smile

Jan 30 13 08:34 am Link

Photographer

M Pandolfo Photography

Posts: 12117

Tampa, Florida, US

Jim McSmith wrote:
Over the years I've met models who were great with make up and others completely hopeless. Now, providing a make up artist raises costs and so wouldn't it be great if models took beauty courses in order to improve make up skills. This would improve versatility greatly I think. Any thought on this matter are very welcome. Thank you.

Now, if you can get a tan model with no implants who also does her own make-up. My God, you hit the Model Lottery.

I've noticed something in your posts...just an observation. You view yourself as an artist. While others involved with the shoots are just expenditures. Like all elements other than yourself are just interchangeable parts to advance your project. It never sounds like you're talking about human beings when you bring up models. And it definitely doesn't sound like you have any respect for the creativity of others.

Why would it be incumbent upon the model to do her own makeup or take the classes? Just to reduce YOUR expenses? How about you take the classes to reduce your expenses. If that means, God forbid, that people think you're gay then that's the investment you choose to make. Yes, having makeup experience makes one more attractive for a project. But that includes making yourself more attractive to clients.

How would it go over if a model was to start a thread titled, "Photographers: You Should Take Retouching Courses" (so I don't have to pay for retouching services)? Or, "Photographers: You Should Own A Studio" (so I don't have to pay for your rental)?

Jan 30 13 08:41 am Link

Model

Jojo West

Posts: 972

Washington, District of Columbia, US

Michael Pandolfo wrote:
It never sounds like you're talking about human beings when you bring up models. And it definitely doesn't sound like you have any respect for the creativity of others.

Why would it be incumbent upon the model to do her own makeup or take the classes? Just to reduce YOUR expenses? How about you take the classes to reduce your expenses.

How would it go over if a model was to start a thread titled, "Photographers: You Should Take Retouching Courses" (so I don't have to pay for retouching services)? Or, "Photographers: You Should Own A Studio" (so I don't have to pay for your rental)?

I think I may have gushed a bit there. The OP has a serious superiority complex and obviously doesn't take into consideration other factors. I know it may not go over well with others but models have expenses too and they can be insane depending on the area. In MOST cases a photographer will not pay for:

Prices are in my area:
1. waxing (legs, underarms, other areas) (usually $100)
2. pedicures ($50-$90)
3. manicures ($30-$50)
4. hair cut, dye, etc. (minimum $115)
5. facial hair removal (whereever you get it) ($40)
6. CLOTHES (woah it's pricey)
7. SHOES (don't even get me started)

Most of it has to be done every 2 weeks!

Yes some photographers will have a full crew, including Wardrobe Stylists, but majority of the time, that isn't the case. We already have to make some hefty investments, like photographers and MUAs do. So why exactly do we now have to go take make-up classes, and invest in a make-up kit too in order to reduce your costs?

Jan 30 13 08:51 am Link

Model

JessieLeigh

Posts: 2059

Las Vegas, Nevada, US

If a model will get paid the fee a photographer would have paid the MUA, then certainly, it would benefit her greatly to be able to fill both roles at a shoot.

Are you willing to pay a model a higher rate if she says she can do her own makeup? Or are you like some photographers that think a model that can do her own makeup should do so for free?

Jan 30 13 08:59 am Link

Photographer

Good Egg Productions

Posts: 16063

Orlando, Florida, US

Jim McSmith wrote:

Unfortunately where I live it would raise eyebrows unless you're noticeably gay. All the courses are filled with teenage girls and it would make people suspicious. It's more liberal minded in the US than here in the UK.

You worry way more about things than you should.

One simple sentence about exactly why you're in the class will lower any eyebrow that is raised by you taking a cosemetics class.

Jan 30 13 09:10 am Link

Photographer

M Pandolfo Photography

Posts: 12117

Tampa, Florida, US

JessieLeigh wrote:
If a model will get paid the fee a photographer would have paid the MUA, then certainly, it would benefit her greatly to be able to fill both roles at a shoot.

Are you willing to pay a model a higher rate if she says she can do her own makeup? Or are you like some photographers that think a model that can do her own makeup should do so for free?

That was answered in the OP. He wants models to be skilled in makeup artistry so he can lower his expenses (not reallocate funds).

Jan 30 13 09:18 am Link

Photographer

Farenell Photography

Posts: 18269

Albany, New York, US

Jim McSmith wrote:
Unfortunately where I live it would raise eyebrows unless you're noticeably gay. All the courses are filled with teenage girls and it would make people suspicious. It's more liberal minded in the US than here in the UK.

Those eyebrows will lower when they discover how much money you're saving by cutting out the proverbially middle man.

Jan 30 13 09:24 am Link

Model

Lily Darling

Posts: 1299

Lansing, Michigan, US

I was lucky enough to have my first shoot for a very established makeup artist. Makeup was a another language to me! She taught me some very good tips and now for the most part I do my own makeup at shoots, unless of course an MUA is provided or one is needed. I tend to agree, it's smart on the models part to be able, to a point do her own makeup. Makes it easier for the photographer and the cost of everything. and there is nothing like a multi-talented model!

Jan 30 13 09:24 am Link

Photographer

DAN CRUIKSHANK

Posts: 1786

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

When I open a studio and start shooting fashion/beauty I plan on marrying a MUA. Problem solved.

Jan 30 13 09:27 am Link

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Model

Koryn

Posts: 37162

Boston, Massachusetts, US

There is nothing wrong with wanting to lower one's expenses, but shifting that burden unnecessarily onto other involved parties, is not exactly a reasonable way to go about achieving that goal.

Jan 30 13 09:29 am Link

Digital Artist

ShuttingDown

Posts: 68

Crystal Lake, Illinois, US

At the rate this guy is going with these "instructional" posts, he'll soon be requesting that models bring their own camera equipment.

Hmmm... here's a list of what he's probably thinking up:

model pays for his transportation to/from the studio.  Also provides all meals for longer shoots.
model brings their own equipment, sets it all up, tears it all down.
model takes classes in not only makeup, but retouching and other post processing activities.
of course we've already learned that the model cannot have a B&W avatar, be void of implants, etc.

Jan 30 13 10:37 am Link

Photographer

Viator Defessus Photos

Posts: 1204

College Station, Texas, US

Mark Salo wrote:
Still telling models what to do!

At this point, he'd probably be better served not saying anything for about a month, changing his avatar, and hoping really hard that everyone just kinda forgets about all of this. Push the "reset" button.

Jan 30 13 11:03 am Link

Photographer

Viator Defessus Photos

Posts: 1204

College Station, Texas, US

Jim McSmith wrote:
Over the years I've met models who were great with make up and others completely hopeless. Now, providing a make up artist raises costs and so wouldn't it be great if models took beauty courses in order to improve make up skills. This would improve versatility greatly I think. Any thought on this matter are very welcome. Thank you.

I agree taht it's nice when a model can do her own hair and make-up, but I generally prefer models to have a more natural look with light make-up and their hair down, so this doesn't really bother me much.

Jan 30 13 11:04 am Link

Model

Paige Morgan

Posts: 4058

New York, New York, US

Is this silly troll telling llamas what to do again?

Perhaps he should focus on his photography work rather than minding every llama on the site's business.


http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/14/wtfprince.jpg

Jan 30 13 11:10 am Link

Photographer

M Pandolfo Photography

Posts: 12117

Tampa, Florida, US

Viator-Defessus Photos wrote:

At this point, he'd probably be better served not saying anything for about a month, changing his avatar, and hoping really hard that everyone just kinda forgets about all of this. Push the "reset" button.

It didn't work the first time.

Jan 30 13 11:11 am Link

Photographer

ForeverFotos

Posts: 6646

Indianapolis, Indiana, US

I'm anxiously awaiting the OP's thread on how to safely keep your camera in the snow without fogging the mirror and lenses. Waiting with bated (or is that baited) breath!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Jq6owX0G_uo/UIHMUS8e8-I/AAAAAAAAAeg/Ww3CooB4Erw/s1600/Hold-Your-Breath.jpg

Jan 30 13 11:20 am Link

Model

Jordan Bunniie

Posts: 1717

Los Angeles, California, US

Hmmm. Why dont you take the class yourself?

Jan 30 13 11:23 am Link

Photographer

Viator Defessus Photos

Posts: 1204

College Station, Texas, US

Michael Pandolfo wrote:
It didn't work the first time.

Well, it would only be expected to work if he didn't repeat the prior bad behavior. It's expected that people can learn from their mistakes and stop poking the same hornet's nest/stop repeating the same errors.

Jan 30 13 11:25 am Link

Model

Wynd Mulysa

Posts: 8619

Berkeley, California, US

I do not wear makeup in my daily life, except sometimes lipstick for fun.
I have never had a problem applying minimal makeup.  I have only worked with a MUA twice [and the same one both times], to get extreme looks.. Like airbrushing my whole face.  All of the shots in my portfolio are either makeup-less or the makeup was done by me.

I wouldn't take a makeup class if the photographer paid for it.  I've got a busy schedule.

Jan 30 13 11:31 am Link

Photographer

Jim McSmith

Posts: 774

Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom

Wynd Mulysa wrote:
I do not wear makeup in my daily life, except sometimes lipstick for fun.
I have never had a problem applying minimal makeup.  I have only worked with a MUA twice [and the same one both times], to get extreme looks.. Like airbrushing my whole face.  All of the shots in my portfolio are either makeup-less or the makeup was done by me.

I wouldn't take a makeup class if the photographer paid for it.  I've got a busy schedule.

You need to go the extra mile if you want to achieve excellence.

Jan 30 13 11:41 am Link