This thread was locked on 2013-01-30 20:37:50 by Kevin Connery. Reason: Done.
Forums > Model Colloquy > Should Models Take Courses In Make Up

Photographer

IMAK Photo

Posts: 528

Eureka, California, US

How many troll threads are you allowed to open before a moderator sends your ass to the brig?

Jan 30 13 11:42 am Link

Model

Wynd Mulysa

Posts: 8612

Berkeley, California, US

Jim McSmith wrote:
You need to go the extra mile if you want to achieve excellence.

You need to...
Okay, I won't go there.  lol.

P.S. It seems like you think every model is struggling and trying to reach a goal with no effort.  This may be a problem for you.

Jan 30 13 11:44 am Link

Model

Paige Morgan

Posts: 4058

New York, New York, US

Jim McSmith wrote:

You need to go the extra mile if you want to achieve excellence.

Perhaps you should follow your own advice. Rather than trolling MM....why not go shoot some photos? Excellence and all that.

Jan 30 13 12:01 pm Link

Photographer

Jim McSmith

Posts: 762

Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom

Paige Morgan wrote:

Perhaps you should follow your own advice. Rather than trolling MM....why not go shoot some photos? Excellence and all that.

Just sharing creative philosophy. Don't be so closed minded.

Jan 30 13 12:04 pm Link

Model

Paige Morgan

Posts: 4058

New York, New York, US

Jim McSmith wrote:

Just sharing creative philosophy. Don't be so closed minded.

Your philosophy should also apply to you. Can I do my own styling? Yes.


Do I need to listen to the decrees of an unknown photographer who seems to enjoy telling models what to do so as to spare himself having to be specific in casting, coordinate his own teams and produce work that makes styling personnel remotely interested?

Nope.

Jan 30 13 12:07 pm Link

Digital Artist

ShuttingDown

Posts: 68

Crystal Lake, Illinois, US

Jim McSmith wrote:
Just sharing creative philosophy. Don't be so closed minded.

Wow, that's very hypocritical of you to say.  Look at these posts you've been writing as ask your ownself how open minded you are.

TIP: If you want to share creative philosophy, choose different words and ways to express that.

Jan 30 13 12:08 pm Link

Photographer

Jim McSmith

Posts: 762

Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom

Paige Morgan wrote:

Your philosophy should also apply to you. Can I do my own styling? Yes.


Do I need to listen to the decrees of an unknown photographer who seems to enjoy telling models what to do so as to spare himself having to be specific in casting, coordinate his own teams and produce work that makes styling personnel remotely interested?

Nope.

Then why are you here?????????????????????????/

Jan 30 13 12:09 pm Link

Model

Paige Morgan

Posts: 4058

New York, New York, US

Jim McSmith wrote:

Then why are you here?????????????????????????/

http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/d52/6f8/186/resized/y-u-no-meme-generator-excellence-y-u-no-want-2bb20a.jpg

Jan 30 13 12:11 pm Link

guide forum

Model

Damianne

Posts: 15975

Austin, Texas, US

IMAK Photo wrote:
How many troll threads are you allowed to open before a Nigerian scammer sends your ass to the brig?

Fake profile with fake images, probably as many as he can until he's kicked.

Jan 30 13 12:13 pm Link

Photographer

DougBPhoto

Posts: 38601

Portland, Oregon, US

Jim McSmith wrote:
Over the years I've met models who were great with make up and others completely hopeless. Now, providing a make up artist raises costs and so wouldn't it be great if models took beauty courses in order to improve make up skills. This would improve versatility greatly I think. Any thought on this matter are very welcome. Thank you.

I'm sure models will get right on that...


right after you finish taking a course to teach you that the world does not revolved around you and this apparent belief that you need to show up here and tell other people what you're convinced they should do.

Jan 30 13 12:14 pm Link

Model

Paige Morgan

Posts: 4058

New York, New York, US

Damianne wrote:

Fake profile with fake images, probably as many as he can until he's kicked.

http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/7bf/d82/493/resized/philosoraptor-meme-generator-don-t-be-so-closed-minded-just-sharing-creative-philosophy-0a5603.jpg

Jan 30 13 12:18 pm Link

Photographer

Decay of Memory

Posts: 600

Asheville, North Carolina, US

I'm finding the question of whether photographers should shoot their own portfolio images more fascinating than make-up questions; or maybe it's related and a play on the terms made up and make-up. What an amusing diversion.

Jan 30 13 12:26 pm Link

Model

Ryne Alan

Posts: 131

Columbus, Ohio, US

If we're looking at this from a career perspective I have to agree with those who believe that being well rounded in the industry would be helpful.

It may not be that the model is doing his/her own make-up but it can't hurt to understand and be aware of how it's working. When taking pictures your taking a 3D situation into a 2D imagine. I feel it would be good for a model to know how they look both from behind the Camera and in front of it.

It could be very beneficial for, male and female, models to know a little bit about foundations, powers, high lighters, and contours. That way they know the "why and how" of the make-up. They can understand what is being enhanced, what they're hiding, why certain make-ups are applied on certain places.

Take that into a combination of general knowledge of lighting, film, shooting styles, etc... and you have a well rounded and very (important thing here) SELF AWARE model.

Jan 30 13 12:28 pm Link

Model

Paige Morgan

Posts: 4058

New York, New York, US

Decay of Memory wrote:
I'm finding the question of whether photographers should shoot their own portfolio images more fascinating than make-up questions; or maybe it's related and a play on the terms made up and make-up. What an amusing diversion.

I like you. Well played big_smile

Jan 30 13 12:31 pm Link

Photographer

Dark Shadows

Posts: 2269

Miami, Florida, US

I am not sure if the OP is aware of this, but it was only in the late 70's and early 80's that make-up artists were employed in the majority of commercial photo shoots.

Prior to that, models were in fact given classes to help with their careers by their agencies, and make-up application was one of those classes. It was make-up artists like Way Bandy, who when he broke through, established professional make-up and hair at photoshoots to be the norm rather than an exception.

Still, make-up being done by the model is not uncommon even today when it comes to testing. For commercial photoshoots, it's pretty rare.

Jan 30 13 12:38 pm Link

Model

Jojo West

Posts: 972

Silver Spring, Maryland, US

Jim McSmith wrote:

Just sharing creative philosophy. Don't be so closed minded.

You fail to understand that 1. your "creative philosophy" isn't creative 2. most models are well aware of the benefits of knowing make-up 3. the constant ramblings of a photographer who obviously has some sort of superiority complex, which he perhaps developed in order to disguise his own feelings of inadequacy don't really provide us with groundbreaking insight.

You can continue trolling the model forum and you shall continue to be trolled by photographers and models alike in return.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5pushc_5Rzg/UORjJl605MI/AAAAAAAAE-4/WTBwa6--rDY/s320/CondescendingWonkaAdvice.jpg

Jan 30 13 12:49 pm Link

Photographer

Jim McSmith

Posts: 762

Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom

Jojo West wrote:

You fail to understand that 1. your "creative philosophy" isn't creative 2. most models are well aware of the benefits of knowing make-up 3. the constant ramblings of a photographer who obviously has some sort of superiority complex, which he perhaps developed in order to disguise his own feelings of inadequacy don't really provide us with groundbreaking insight.

You can continue trolling the model forum and you shall continue to be trolled by photographers and models alike in return.

Well at least you admit you're trolling.

Jan 30 13 12:59 pm Link

Photographer

Amul La La

Posts: 828

Plymouth, England, United Kingdom

Seriously would love to learn to do make up professionally, I'm currently practicing now !

Jan 30 13 01:00 pm Link

Photographer

M Pandolfo Photography

Posts: 12116

Tampa, Florida, US

Jim McSmith wrote:
Then why are you here?????????????????????????/

That's what I was talking about earlier. You seem to have this narcissistic mentality that models exist only to satisfy your efforts and that they should be thanksful for your paternalistic rants.

Are you under the impression that ANY model is here to be told how they should behave? What professional avenues they embark? How they approach their portfolio? And what surgical procedures you deem acceptable?

Are you going through a bitter breakup? Because every single one of your posts within every thread for the past week has been incredibly condescending and sexist. And each post displays a sense of entitlement that is not remotely deserved.

Jan 30 13 01:04 pm Link

Model

Jojo West

Posts: 972

Silver Spring, Maryland, US

Jim McSmith wrote:
Well at least you admit you're trolling.

As are you my friend, as are you. Otherwise you're just delusional big_smile

Jan 30 13 01:05 pm Link

Photographer

Jim McSmith

Posts: 762

Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom

Michael Pandolfo wrote:

That's what I was talking about earlier. You seem to have this narcissistic mentality that models exist only to satisfy your efforts and that they should be thanksful for your paternalistic rants.

Are you under the impression that ANY model is here to be told how they should behave? What professional avenues they embark? How they approach their portfolio? And what surgical procedures you deem acceptable?

Are you going through a bitter breakup? Because every single one of your posts within every thread for the past week has been incredibly condescending and sexist. And each post displays a sense of entitlement that is not remotely deserved.

This site is full of trolls. I'm talking about make up and he's going on about relationships and breaking up. Whatever next!

Jan 30 13 01:14 pm Link

Model

Dekilah

Posts: 4890

Detroit, Michigan, US

I can do my own make-up to a degree, here some examples:

http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/121218/09/50d0ad716a43d_m.jpg
http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/120921/13/505cccfd155e1_m.jpg
(both the same self portrait session, just slightly different editing)

http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/120921/13/505cccf928e4f_m.jpg
(my first attempt at a smokey eye)

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos- … 8469_n.jpg (linked for size)

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos- … 6047_n.jpg (linked for size)

http://dekilah.tumblr.com/post/37887883 … -12-at-the (18+)
http://dekilah.tumblr.com/post/37419900 … dekilah-me (18+)
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos- … 9132_n.jpg (18+ ish for sheer)
http://dekilah.tumblr.com/post/39951808 … rapher-mua

And really, if you look in my port and no one is credited for make-up, I did the make-up in that photo if I am wearing any. A lot of times for art nudes I do not wear make-up, often by the request of the photographer.

Make-up has become a hobby of mine, as has self portrait photography and they kind of go together. I follow a few beauty forums and pages and a lot of people who do tutorials on YouTube. I tend to go pretty soft or really dark for photoshoots (mostly self portraits) because those are the two looks that I think look best on me, but I would be willing to try other looks if I was given examples. Obviously the more artistic looks are something I would rather leave to an MUA, and I still think a good MUA will do better make-up than me every time.

Something else to consider is that make-up for shoots can get expensive. I have only a few palettes of eyeshadow, but they tend to run any where from $20 to $80 a piece. There are some cheaper versions out there, but they can be limited in shades and sometimes the quality is questionable and not consistent. Good quality foundation that provides that full coverage runs $35+ a bottle. Most good brushes are $20 each and up and it often takes 3 or more brushes to do an eye look alone. There are cheaper alternatives, but not many and good brushes are pretty vital to getting good make-up results.

Also, if you are considering doing make-up as a photographer (and this may have already been said), you really, really need to make sure you learn how to keep a sanitary make-up kit. Using make-up on yourself is one thing as you do not have to be super careful about contamination, but using the same make-up on multiple people means keeping those brushes clean and never dipping a contaminated brush into the product. A lot of MUAs actually have totally separate kits for themselves, or they use proper sanitation procedures when applying it themselves as well.

I think a model who can do at least some basic looks definitely has an advantage in some styles. But demanding that models be able to do all their own make-up is a pretty tall and expensive order. So please be sure you compensate those models properly ^_~

Jan 30 13 01:16 pm Link

Photographer

Kevin Connery

Posts: 16931

El Segundo, California, US

Jim McSmith wrote:

Michael Pandolfo wrote:
That's what I was talking about earlier. You seem to have this narcissistic mentality that models exist only to satisfy your efforts and that they should be thanksful for your paternalistic rants
....
Because every single one of your posts within every thread for the past week has been incredibly condescending and sexist. And each post displays a sense of entitlement that is not remotely deserved.

This site is full of trolls. I'm talking about make up and he's going on about relationships and breaking up. Whatever next!

No. He's referencing other posts which are right on the edge of being trolling if taken alone, but which clearly cross the line into trolling when taken together.

Please stop trolling.

Jan 30 13 01:28 pm Link

Photographer

deletedxxx

Posts: 149

Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Jim McSmith wrote:
Unfortunately where I live it would raise eyebrows unless you're noticeably gay. All the courses are filled with teenage girls and it would make people suspicious. It's more liberal minded in the US than here in the UK.

Bah excuses!
There is a massive amount of tutorials on you tube and the internet in general. Repeat after me, Google is god.

Jan 30 13 01:46 pm Link

Model

Jojo West

Posts: 972

Silver Spring, Maryland, US

landofy wrote:

Bah excuses!
There is a massive amount of tutorials on you tube and the internet in general. Repeat after me, Google is god.

You're right, that's where I learn, or try to learn to do my own make-up...I can't get the darn blending to work! Lol

Jan 30 13 01:57 pm Link

Photographer

DAN CRUIKSHANK

Posts: 1786

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

IMO it makes more sense for the photographer to learn makeup. It will give you a competitive advantage, lower costs, and you retain creative control.

Jan 30 13 02:12 pm Link

Model

E e v a

Posts: 1724

Nashville, Tennessee, US

Jim McSmith wrote:
Over the years I've met models who were great with make up and others completely hopeless. Now, providing a make up artist raises costs and so wouldn't it be great if models took beauty courses in order to improve make up skills. This would improve versatility greatly I think. Any thought on this matter are very welcome. Thank you.

Next thread: Models, I think you need to learn massage classes. My neck gets sore, and my expenses of a masseuse are too high. Which means I can't lift my head to shoot you well through this camera. And it's your fault. How inconsiderate. Thanks!

But seriously, models only need to worry about their expenses. They are not responsible for keeping your costs low. Models are expected to know a basic make up look, but shouldn't have to be a trained MUA to do every concept you demand.

Jan 30 13 02:23 pm Link

Photographer

Jim McSmith

Posts: 762

Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom

Samantha Emme wrote:

Next thread: Models, I think you need to learn massage classes. My neck gets sore, and my expenses of a masseuse are too high. Which means I can't lift my head to shoot you well through this camera. And it's your fault. How inconsiderate. Thanks!

But seriously, models only need to worry about their expenses. They are not responsible for keeping your costs low. Models are expected to know a basic make up look, but shouldn't have to be a trained MUA to do every concept you demand.

Gobby wee thing aint ya?

Jan 30 13 03:10 pm Link

Model

Jojo West

Posts: 972

Silver Spring, Maryland, US

Is it just me, or does anyone else wish the OP would start another thread called "would you work with me, if no tell me why?"

I'd love to subscribe to that thread.

Jan 30 13 03:25 pm Link

Photographer

Ryan Richardson Photo

Posts: 80

MIDDLEBORO, Massachusetts, US

I feel like a lot of the time, unless you're going for a high fashion or glamour look (or something very exaggerated) then all makeup is doing is covering up problem areas and accentuating some positives, all of which can probably be done in post if you're only going to pull a couple of images from a set (and a lot can be done with actions). Hair is tougher.

Jan 30 13 03:36 pm Link

Digital Artist

ShuttingDown

Posts: 68

Crystal Lake, Illinois, US

Jojo West wrote:
Is it just me, or does anyone else wish the OP would start another thread called "would you work with me, if no tell me why?"

I'd love to subscribe to that thread.

LOL, I'd be tempted to subscribe as well.  But I'm going to do my best not to get sucked into the vortex that is his posts.

Jan 30 13 03:57 pm Link

Photographer

H A Z E

Posts: 82

London, England, United Kingdom

I think quite a lot of models do a good job themselves and get it done very quickly too.

Better than waiting 1.5 - 3 hours for the MUA to do it.. zzz...

Jan 30 13 07:55 pm Link

Model

E e v a

Posts: 1724

Nashville, Tennessee, US

Jim McSmith wrote:
Gobby wee thing aint ya?

Oh how clever. Suddenly I realized, Model's aren't supposed to have opinions either! Should I be barefoot and with a sandwich when I show up too?


http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs1/1738553_o.gif

Jan 30 13 08:07 pm Link