Forums > General Industry > Real Meaning of TF vs What You get!

Model

Caitin Bre

Posts: 2248

Naperville, Illinois, US

Kevin Connery wrote:

Have you used any of them?

Only ones that I have copyrights for. And/or specific usage agreements such as shared copyrights. I expect my rights to be respected and I respect others.
That is why I ask for the copyrights to 5-10 raws from our shoot in a TF shoot in most cases. You would have to trust me. And isn't it the opinion of allot of the photographer posters here that they wouldn't work with someone that doesn't trust them or they don't trust?

Feb 10 13 08:37 pm Link

Photographer

Jerry Nemeth

Posts: 28013

Dearborn, Michigan, US

Caitin   wrote:
I didn't say they would be handing over raw!
One of them I will be shooting with this week Is so awesome that simply doing a TF for images with his name on them is worth more to me than raws.
Because His imagination and creative powers blow me away.

Robert Randall MM#97702 Contacted me after reading this thread and feels we can work well together on a few ideas this week.
Make sure you check out his website as well. http://www.robert-randall.com

So Bob Randall is still around MM.  If I know him I'm sure that he has some interesting ideas!  I wonder what he is up to.  smile
I know that he won't give you his RAWS!

Feb 10 13 08:39 pm Link

Model

MelissaAnn

Posts: 3956

Seattle, Washington, US

If you're on good terms with the photographers you work with, most of them won't mind you using the photos for purposes other than self-promotion, as long as you ask them first.  If you want to submit to magazines, sell images, or use the images for any other purpose that might make money (or get you recognition), it seems fair that the photographer should share in the profit/recognition, unless you *paid* them for full rights to the images.  If you want certain prints, or large high-res images, many photographers will give them to you as long as you tell them what you're using them for.

If you don't want a photographer to use images of you (from a TF shoot) for any purpose other than self promotion, you can just tell them that needs to be part of the release, and then it's totally fair- both of you can use the images for self-promotion only. 

No matter how many great images you have in your port, there's always going to be a photographer who can give you better ones.  If you're the type of person who always strives for better images, then TF (even without full rights or high res files) is usually worth it.  If I get 2-5 amazing images, better (or different) than what I already have, then TF is definitely worth it to me.

Feb 10 13 08:47 pm Link

Photographer

KungPaoChic

Posts: 3084

West Palm Beach, Florida, US

MelissaAnn  wrote:
If you're on good terms with the photographers you work with, most of them won't mind you using the photos for purposes other than self-promotion, as long as you ask them first.  If you want to submit to magazines, sell images, or use the images for any other purpose that might make money (or get you recognition), it seems fair that the photographer should share in the profit/recognition, unless you *paid* them for full rights to the images.  If you want certain prints, or large high-res images, many photographers will give them to you as long as you tell them what you're using them for.

If you don't want a photographer to use images of you (from a TF shoot) for any purpose other than self promotion, you can just tell them that needs to be part of the release, and then it's totally fair- both of you can use the images for self-promotion only. 

No matter how many great images you have in your port, there's always going to be a photographer who can give you better ones.  If you're the type of person who always strives for better images, than TF (even without full rights or high res files) is usually worth it.  If I get 2-5 amazing images, better (or different) than what I already have, then TF is definitely worth it to me.

You have an amazing portfolio Melissa Ann.

Feb 10 13 08:50 pm Link

Model

MelissaAnn

Posts: 3956

Seattle, Washington, US

hassanchop wrote:

You have an amazing portfolio Melissa Ann.

Oh, thank you.  smile

Feb 10 13 08:54 pm Link

Photographer

KungPaoChic

Posts: 3084

West Palm Beach, Florida, US

MelissaAnn  wrote:

Oh, thank you.  smile

Quite welcome.

Big fan of your work and your profile is just the right mixture of serious and funny. I am sure you are a joy to work with.

wink

Feb 10 13 08:58 pm Link

Photographer

Jerry Nemeth

Posts: 28013

Dearborn, Michigan, US

MelissaAnn  wrote:

Oh, thank you.  smile

I think so too!

Feb 10 13 09:01 pm Link

Model

Caitin Bre

Posts: 2248

Naperville, Illinois, US

MelissaAnn  wrote:
If you're on good terms with the photographers you work with, most of them won't mind you using the photos for purposes other than self-promotion, as long as you ask them first.  If you want to submit to magazines, sell images, or use the images for any other purpose that might make money (or get you recognition), it seems fair that the photographer should share in the profit/recognition, unless you *paid* them for full rights to the images.  If you want certain prints, or large high-res images, many photographers will give them to you as long as you tell them what you're using them for.

If you don't want a photographer to use images of you (from a TF shoot) for any purpose other than self promotion, you can just tell them that needs to be part of the release, and then it's totally fair- both of you can use the images for self-promotion only. 

No matter how many great images you have in your port, there's always going to be a photographer who can give you better ones.  If you're the type of person who always strives for better images, then TF (even without full rights or high res files) is usually worth it.  If I get 2-5 amazing images, better (or different) than what I already have, then TF is definitely worth it to me.

I agree.
And even with full rights, I think credits should be given in any promotion. The only time not to is if the photographer asks not to be credited.
Good point with making sure if you do not want the photos to be used make sure it is in the contract.

BTW awesome work MelissaAnn!

Feb 10 13 09:07 pm Link

Photographer

RKD Photographic

Posts: 3265

Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany

April Hunter wrote:
TF should be an outright exchange of ALL that was shot in the day.

Photographers may offer only a few edited photos, but you should be receiving all the shots in general. If you're giving your time, your wardrobe, your body, you're doing your hair and makeup...then you'd better damn well get EVERY shot. Sans the blinks and blurs, that is.

Don't let anyone get away *not* doing that. Perhaps some photographers don't like models using lesser shots, but then if that's the case, maybe they should edit them all.

After all, the model is usually eating the majority of expenses for the TF shoot--from travel to getting her hair colored and nails done.

Oh dear - this is so full of 'wrong' on every level... hmm

Feb 11 13 12:27 am Link

Photographer

RKD Photographic

Posts: 3265

Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany

Caitin   wrote:

Sure I have been given all the raws several times and ask to pick which ones he could post of me and asked me to edit them for him. I don't consider it unusual.

And yet all of the photographers commenting here - some of whom have been shooting for decades - are telling you that it is... something you still cannot seem to grasp.

Feb 11 13 12:33 am Link

Photographer

Darren Brade

Posts: 2834

London, England, United Kingdom

Caitin   wrote:

I didn't say they would be handing over raw!
One of them I will be shooting with this week Is so awesome that simply doing a TF for images with his name on them is worth more to me than raws.
Because His imagination and creative powers blow me away.

Robert Randall MM#97702 Contacted me after reading this thread and feels we can work well together on a few ideas this week.
Make sure you check out his website as well. http://www.robert-randall.com

That's great news, and from working with more professional photographers you'll learn that you don't need access to all images.

Feb 11 13 02:13 am Link

Photographer

Darren Brade

Posts: 2834

London, England, United Kingdom

Caitin   wrote:

I wouldn't even have a need or try to edit them. He can do magic!

That is because they are ALREADY retouched to a very high standard judging by the link you gave. Again, proving the point of what many people have been trying to tell you.

Feb 11 13 02:15 am Link

Photographer

Jerry Nemeth

Posts: 28013

Dearborn, Michigan, US

Darren Brade wrote:

That's great news, and from working with more professional photographers you'll learn that you don't need access to all images.

He is very professional!

Feb 11 13 02:18 am Link

Photographer

Darren Brade

Posts: 2834

London, England, United Kingdom

Caitin   wrote:
The points I have been making.
I work with all levels of photographers. And for TF work There has to be value in it for both the photographer and the Model.

So you balance the value of the shoot on value of what we both are getting out of it.
Most photographers are average and for the most part I feel I am average.
I do not discriminate as to where you are in the level. As a matter of fact I do not like the term GWC. I find it degrading. Its beginner and I have allot to offer a beginner and most of them see that.
The average, some have somethings to offer me and some don't. But one thing I find in common with almost all of them are they would not promote my business and photos with not near the same enthusiasm as I will.
They should see the fact that I am going to make sure any market I am promoting in, I will make sure I have the best representations of our works.
The idea of giving me 5-10 photos from the shoot would be to there advantage. All the time and effort I will put into them will only build them as well. The Art exhibit. The Book. Will showcase there talent without them even lifting a finger after the shoot.
Then there is times I shoot with People such as Robert Randall who are amazing and have more to offer me than me to them. There editing skills are way farther skilled than mine. There talents what can I say they speak for themselves.
They are established and anything they do gets noticed.

What I want to know is can you see the value in what I am offering for what I am asking? Can You see where maybe you could work with a model and change a stubborn no into, you get me thinking?

I disagree with you, below is your OP.  Plus you only agree with posts that want All pics. You are very specific in your original post and now 9 pages on appear to be trying to dig yourself out of a hole rather than just admit you may have been wrong.

Caitin   wrote:
What does TF mean?
I see it as Trade For something, anything, everything.

For sure the trade should be something worth your time.

One thing that drives me crazy is when I get an offer for 5 edited photos with only rights for self promotion. So you get 5 picked and edited by photographer, 800x 533p 72dpi.

Really how much is that worth?

Well if your a new model needing port pics and the photographer isn't keeping 500 nude erotic images of you for it then its worth getting you started.

But if you have plenty of self promotion pics its worthless.

You have to see the value in the time. If the offer is 10 raw images from the shoot of your choice and all rights to those ten, then you might have something. For sure if they are of value on the market.

What do you think about this practice?

Certainly I think it is why when you 1st sign up on a site why you get pounded left and right for TF until you figure it out.

Do you think its taking advantage of a persons lack of experience?

Feb 11 13 02:22 am Link

Photographer

BIP

Posts: 3705

Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

John Allan wrote:
TF has no standard meaning except its acronym 'Trade For'. It's not any kind of industry term. It appears to have its derivation with Internet hobbyists.
That's why I don't use it. If I'm testing, then I use the correct street-level term 'test'. 99% of the models or other team members that are at the level I'm interested in collaborating with, understand the term and its standard meaning.

Of course the Internet and these forums just love to redefine long standing terms to fit individual whims or what they think it should mean.

There will certainly be a contribution from someone(s) in this thread stating that since TF has no standard meaning, that you have to surround it with all these formal agreements of specifics. This is exactly why the professional world defines and subsequently uses specific words which have a standard meaning, which everyone knows what it means operating in the professional environment. Those who are new and don't yet, get a quick primer. Then no need for a lengthy 'what does the term mean to you - what is our agreement' discussion.
But of course that's too straight-forward for the tens of thousand of MM members who insist on the latitude to use their own personal terminology

How many images and what rights does the model get from your "test" shoots ?

Feb 11 13 02:28 am Link

Photographer

KonstantKarma

Posts: 2513

Hickory, North Carolina, US

This is still going?

Where did that April go, we need more troll.

Feb 11 13 05:06 am Link

Model

Caitin Bre

Posts: 2248

Naperville, Illinois, US

Darren Brade wrote:

That is because they are ALREADY retouched to a very high standard judging by the link you gave. Again, proving the point of what many people have been trying to tell you.

What it proves is what I have been saying about different levels of ability. Bob is an exception. What he can do for me is well above what I can do.  There are other photographer in my list of photographer i enjoyed working with that have above average abilities and talents.
Now the average photographer in which most of MM photographers are, I need 5-10 raw files and copyrights of my choice from the shoot in a TF. I have explained how this could be beneficial for both of us and a very fair trade.
What I have been told allot here is that I am asking to much as well as several other cut downs. And that I might as well retire because I won't find work for my requests make it impossible. That simply isn't true. And new models are intimidated by such unfounded comments and it stunts there growth.
I have been told that I must be new and do not know the industry. I am not new with more than 22 years of modeling. I have worked with all levels of photographers.
I do not like how allot of the forum photographers here say this is how it is and you will do it this way or never work.
I see photographers here attack models constantly with the ideas that what the photographer says is the only rules. Not true at all.
It is a collaboration of talents. In my experience photographers who work well and are respectful towards there models are the most successful ones.

Leadership is the art of getting someone else to do something you want done because he wants to do it.
Dwight D. Eisenhower

Feb 11 13 06:14 am Link

Photographer

Jerry Nemeth

Posts: 28013

Dearborn, Michigan, US

Caitin   wrote:

What it proves is what I have been saying about different levels of ability. Bob is an exception. What he can do for me is well above what I can do.  There are other photographer in my list of photographer i enjoyed working with that have above average abilities and talents.
Now the average photographer in which most of MM photographers are, I need 5-10 raw files and copyrights of my choice from the shoot in a TF. I have explained how this could be beneficial for both of us and a very fair trade.
What I have been told allot here is that I am asking to much as well as several other cut downs. And that I might as well retire because I won't find work for my requests make it impossible. That simply isn't true. And new models are intimidated by such unfounded comments and it stunts there growth.
I have been told that I must be new and do not know the industry. I am not new with more than 22 years of modeling. I have worked with all levels of photographers.
I do not like how allot of the forum photographers here say this is how it is and you will do it this way or never work.
I see photographers here attack models constantly with the ideas that what the photographer says is the only rules. Not true at all.
It is a collaboration of talents. In my experience photographers who work well and are respectful towards there models are the most successful ones.

Leadership is the art of getting someone else to do something you want done because he wants to do it.
Dwight D. Eisenhower

You have a way with words!   big_smile

Feb 11 13 06:25 am Link

Photographer

Darren Brade

Posts: 2834

London, England, United Kingdom

Caitin   wrote:

What it proves is what I have been saying about different levels of ability. Bob is an exception. What he can do for me is well above what I can do.  There are other photographer in my list of photographer i enjoyed working with that have above average abilities and talents.
Now the average photographer in which most of MM photographers are, I need 5-10 raw files and copyrights of my choice from the shoot in a TF. I have explained how this could be beneficial for both of us and a very fair trade.
What I have been told allot here is that I am asking to much as well as several other cut downs. And that I might as well retire because I won't find work for my requests make it impossible. That simply isn't true. And new models are intimidated by such unfounded comments and it stunts there growth.
I have been told that I must be new and do not know the industry. I am not new with more than 22 years of modeling. I have worked with all levels of photographers.
I do not like how allot of the forum photographers here say this is how it is and you will do it this way or never work.
I see photographers here attack models constantly with the ideas that what the photographer says is the only rules. Not true at all.
It is a collaboration of talents. In my experience photographers who work well and are respectful towards there models are the most successful ones.

Leadership is the art of getting someone else to do something you want done because he wants to do it.
Dwight D. Eisenhower

Not really proving your point, you make no mention of "ability" in your OP or to the people you agree with who share your view, in fact your OP suggests all, regardless.

It's probably why you keep skipping my comments referring you back to your original OP which is very misleading.

Feb 11 13 07:19 am Link

Photographer

Darren Brade

Posts: 2834

London, England, United Kingdom

As for the number of years working etc, that means very little to me when I hear photographers and models state this.

There are many people that can do something badly for many years and still do it badly.
Darren M Brade

Feb 11 13 07:21 am Link

Model

Caitin Bre

Posts: 2248

Naperville, Illinois, US

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

He is very professional!

+1

Feb 11 13 09:23 am Link

Model

Caitin Bre

Posts: 2248

Naperville, Illinois, US

RKD Photographic wrote:

Oh dear - this is so full of 'wrong' on every level... hmm

Right for her! And for allot of photographers having her in there port would help there image. Its just the same as if a model needed a photographer to help her build a port.
So it would be a very good deal for some photographers. Would you agree?

Feb 11 13 09:28 am Link

Model

Caitin Bre

Posts: 2248

Naperville, Illinois, US

Darren Brade wrote:
As for the number of years working etc, that means very little to me when I hear photographers and models state this.

There are many people that can do something badly for many years and still do it badly.
Darren M Brade

On my way out the door to shoot with the 1st amazing photographer this week. I doubt very seriously it will turn out badly!

Feb 11 13 09:46 am Link

Photographer

RKD Photographic

Posts: 3265

Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany

Caitin   wrote:

Right for her! And for allot of photographers having her in there port would help there image. Its just the same as if a model needed a photographer to help her build a port.
So it would be a very good deal for some photographers. Would you agree?

No. Getting all the images doesn't build your port - it just fills up your hard drive with unused images.

Feb 11 13 09:47 am Link

Photographer

WIP

Posts: 15546

Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom

April Hunter wrote:
TF should be an outright exchange of ALL that was shot in the day.

Photographers may offer only a few edited photos, but you should be receiving all the shots in general. If you're giving your time, your wardrobe, your body, you're doing your hair and makeup...then you'd better damn well get EVERY shot.



After all, the model is usually eating the majority of expenses for the TF shoot--from travel to getting her hair colored and nails done.

Please tell me your joking. Your hair would turn from red to grey if you knew the cost of equip, studio and running costs.

You can have the raw images if I used a mobile phone for the shoot.

Feb 11 13 09:54 am Link

Model

Paige Morgan

Posts: 4058

New York, New York, US

Can we please stop flogging this pile of dead horse and crazy?

The pulverized remains are messing up my shoes.

Feb 11 13 09:56 am Link

Photographer

AgX

Posts: 1273

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US

Paige Morgan wrote:
Can we please stop flogging this pile of dead horse and crazy?

The pulverized remains are messing up my shoes.

Only if they're cute shoes (i.e. pics or I don't believe you).
wink

Feb 11 13 10:07 am Link

Photographer

RKD Photographic

Posts: 3265

Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany

Paige Morgan wrote:
Can we please stop flogging this pile of dead horse and crazy?

The pulverized remains are messing up my shoes.

I think there's a Damian Hirst meets Jimmy Choo joke in there somewhere... big_smile

Feb 11 13 10:16 am Link

Photographer

WIP

Posts: 15546

Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom

RKD Photographic wrote:

I think there's a Damian Hirst meets Jimmy Choo joke in there somewhere... big_smile

Formaldehyde horse/beef burgers.

Feb 11 13 10:18 am Link

Model

Paige Morgan

Posts: 4058

New York, New York, US

AgX wrote:

Only if they're cute shoes (i.e. pics or I don't believe you).
wink

High heeled motorcycle boots are not commonly described as "cute" but I like them. wink

Feb 11 13 10:21 am Link

Artist/Painter

MainePaintah

Posts: 1783

Saco, Maine, US

Caitin   wrote:

No problem there! If for trade for some raw images in return with releases of equal value. Its like splitting the deal. It would have to be with someone that can give you that quality as well. And something I need.
Like there are a few things I am looking for right now that I need to complete a gallery for Art exhibitions. (for profit)

Not that we are close enough to TFP right now, but what are you looking for?
I owned and ran my own Gallery for a few years, and have some stuff left lying around, so what are you after?

Feb 11 13 10:31 am Link

Photographer

Darren Brade

Posts: 2834

London, England, United Kingdom

Caitin   wrote:

On my way out the door to shoot with the 1st amazing photographer this week. I doubt very seriously it will turn out badly!

Can't wait to see the photos.

Feb 11 13 10:31 am Link

Photographer

Darren Brade

Posts: 2834

London, England, United Kingdom

Paige Morgan wrote:
Can we please stop flogging this pile of dead horse and crazy?

The pulverized remains are messing up my shoes.

"...Hello this is the RSPCA helpline, how may I help you?"

Feb 11 13 10:33 am Link

Model

Paige Morgan

Posts: 4058

New York, New York, US

c_h_r_i_s wrote:

Formaldehyde horse/beef burgers.

Freshly butchered burgers wrapped in TF requests, then preserved in formaldehyde on top of a pile of designer shoes?

Feb 11 13 10:36 am Link

Photographer

Decay of Memory

Posts: 600

Asheville, North Carolina, US

Horsemeat now? It seems like this is the thread for dying animals on their last legs.

Feb 11 13 10:47 am Link

Photographer

WIP

Posts: 15546

Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom

Caitin   wrote:

Sure if you would like. let me work on a few this week from the shoots I am doing the next 3 days.

Waiting in anticipation.

Feb 12 13 11:33 am Link

Model

Caitin Bre

Posts: 2248

Naperville, Illinois, US

Paige Morgan wrote:

High heeled motorcycle boots are not commonly described as "cute" but I like them. wink

Cool! I want a pair! That can be Hot! making me think about a shoot I want to do.

Feb 12 13 11:35 am Link

Model

Caitin Bre

Posts: 2248

Naperville, Illinois, US

Darren Brade wrote:
Can't wait to see the photos.

It was a very awesome shoot got some really good images! He flew in from New Jersey to shoot with me and we did 6 scenes over a 14 hour period of time. (we worked strait through, breaking only an hour for dinner)
Some very amazing stuff. You will see some soon in my port. I'm sure you will like them.

Feb 12 13 11:42 am Link

Photographer

KonstantKarma

Posts: 2513

Hickory, North Carolina, US

Checking the critique board in anticipation... still nothing yet!

Feb 13 13 07:23 am Link

Photographer

WIP

Posts: 15546

Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom

I'm not going to hold my breath..... day 4.

Feb 13 13 01:02 pm Link