Forums > General Industry > TF shoot gone bad? Would love everyone's opinion

Photographer

John Choi

Posts: 36

Torrance, California, US

I'm still relatively new to MM and also to fashion photography. But I've been doing it for over 6 months an have done quite a bit of shooting. Generally, I like to do a TF shoot where after I shoot with a model I give them a DVD or two of the entire shoot plus several edited photos. The number of edited photos varies but roughly it's about 2-5% depending on the number of images. For instance a typical shoot will have about 400 images and I will edit around 10-20 images. Furthermore, I usually will tell the model that if they like any of the non edited images, I'd be happy to edit or retouch a few of them. The images are in NEF format as I shoot with a Nikon camera.

Ok, so recently I shot a model and thought the shoot went great. When I emailed her some images she replied with "OMG I love these!"  So I was happy. We even scheduled a second shoot.

Then a week later she abruptly cancelled the shoot via text and wanted to know when she would receive the DVDs. This was about one week after the original shoot and I had already emailed her about 8 edited images. I told her I'd be happy to hand over the DVD if she meets me with a signed release which I gave her and forgot to get signed. I was planning on giving her the DVDs when we met for our shoot. An the tone of her texts were very cold and felt very different than previous correspondence.  We met a few days later and exchanged DVDs for release.

Now a few weeks later (original shoot was I think over a month ago) she texts me saying why can't she open the files. I advised her downloading a free software like Picasa an she should be able to view the files. I've sent dozens of these DVDs to different models and i have never heard of a problem.  I also advised her that she should get used to handling RAW files as I believe most photogs shoot in that format (please tell me if you guys agree).  Then after several texts she said something about it being not her job to convert files. She's the model and I'm the photographer an I'm waisting her time.  If she asked nicely, I would have actually gone back and converted all (I think over 400 images I think) images to JPEg but thought she was being so rude that I told her lets just go our separate ways.

Am I being unreasonable?  I really feel like I am not being unreasonable. I'd love to hear from models and photogs and anyone else who had an opinion.

Feb 08 13 04:58 pm Link

Photographer

L Cowles Photography

Posts: 833

Corona, California, US

I think it is best to give the model a DVD with jpgs.  These anyone can open up.  Most models are not into printing images and really need them for the web.  I shoot Raw and jpg so I can give them the jpgs.

Feb 08 13 05:04 pm Link

Photographer

Shon D.- Homme

Posts: 3207

Virginia Beach, Virginia, US

Fuck her. She can convert the files herself.

Feb 08 13 05:08 pm Link

Photographer

In Balance Photography

Posts: 3372

Boston, Massachusetts, US

RAW conversion is the photographers job.

Feb 08 13 05:09 pm Link

Photographer

Dan K Photography

Posts: 5466

STATEN ISLAND, New York, US

No, you are really generous. But you have to keep in mind that most people do not know what to do with raws. Just convert them before putting them on DVD.

Feb 08 13 05:10 pm Link

Photographer

Shon D.- Homme

Posts: 3207

Virginia Beach, Virginia, US

Also, I think you do WAY too much for these models anyway. Editing 10-20 images from a shoot is overkill. What is someone going to do with 20 images of themselves in the same green dress? And giving them all the unedited photos on top of that? HELL. NO. What's happening now is that people expect that from you and want to push further. You're already doing WAY more than most other photographers will do (I only edit one or two photos PER LOOK and do not give out any unedited photos), and she wants to complain about the file type (a problem that she could easily remedy herself.)

Not me. No ma'am. I'll got out of my way for nice/polite people. But you are not going to make demands (and rudely at that.)

Feb 08 13 05:11 pm Link

Photographer

Hi_Spade Photography

Posts: 897

Darlington, South Carolina, US

L Cowles Photography wrote:
I think it is best to give the model a DVD with jpgs.  These anyone can open up.  Most models are not into printing images and really need them for the web.  I shoot Raw and jpg so I can give them the jpgs.

+1 smile

Feb 08 13 05:11 pm Link

Photographer

Daeda1us

Posts: 1067

Little Rock, Arkansas, US

This is your first problem in 6 months?
You are a very lucky person!!!

Sounds like she might have developed an 'issue' with someone other than you.  Boyfriend maybe?
You lived up to your contracted promises.
What more can you do?

Dont worry about it, dont use her as a reference, and move on.
If you are feeling really generous, you could send her a dvd with the files converted to jpg, but I have a strong feeling she would still be unsatisfied.

My two cents, YMMV
Daeda1us

Feb 08 13 05:13 pm Link

Photographer

MichaelClements

Posts: 1739

Adelaide, South Australia, Australia

And this is exactly why I don't hand over shots like candy at Halloween.

Feb 08 13 05:13 pm Link

Photographer

Bobby C

Posts: 1952

Portland, Oregon, US

if your agreement with her was to have her sign a release form in exchange for the files, then you are in no way obligated to her until she signs the release.
as a rule of thumb, you should give  jpegs to models. most lay people can't "handle" RAW files. although it's not a hard and fast rule, it is the photographer's "job" to give the model web ready/print ready files.
as far as her being "cold" the second time around, as long as she is not breaking any agreements, she can be as bi-polar as she wants.
sounds like you might have to write off your loses on this one and move on.

Feb 08 13 05:16 pm Link

Photographer

Shoreline Studio

Posts: 302

Sandusky, Ohio, US

Yes and no.

Yes, you are good to the model, letting her see how she did on the whole shoot. Plus editing several images for her, and offering to do a few more if she requests it. It may be more than a lot of photographers want to do, because of the effort involved, copyright factors, etc. But the models usually appreciate it!

And no, you should not expect her to handle anything like file conversion, etc. Usually you are best to pass the images on in the most common standard - jpg - so the model has no issues with it. Just as you might not be much on hair styling, applying makeup, etc. - expecting a model to do much beyond simply opening and viewing files is more than most of them would want to do.

Until the last few months, I was still getting a model now and then who wanted only cd's. They had a computer old enough that is would not read a dvd. I gave them cd's. Keeps them happy, so it helps promote the tfp aspect of the shoot, keeps them working with me.

Feb 08 13 05:21 pm Link

Photographer

Jackson frontier photos

Posts: 531

Joplin, Missouri, US

Give them jpegs, most of them aren't super tech savvy, in my experience so far.  I shoot in raw and jpeg for this reason.  That being said, she doesn't sound super diplomatic, might be best to move on.

Feb 08 13 05:22 pm Link

Photographer

Darren Brade

Posts: 2833

London, England, United Kingdom

No, you were not rude, just inexperienced.

Photographers do shoot RAW, but rarely give them to anyone. Convert them to jpg and give the models that instead.

Converting the photos is part of the development process and does the model really need more than the ones you both agreed should be edited?

Darren
www.facebook.com/darrenbradephotography

Feb 08 13 05:24 pm Link

Photographer

John Choi

Posts: 36

Torrance, California, US

Ok thank you all.  Sorry I can't remember who said what, but to the people who said I should give jpegs, you're probably right.  But like I said, I have NEVER yet to have a problem with a model who said they couldn't open the files.  Also, I always ask them, "hey were you able to see the pics?"  and if not I will go back and do what I can to help.  I just figure they should want RAW since those files have the most data. 

To the photog who said I do too much, you're probably right.  I'm just having so much fun I just am very grateful to the models and generally want to do too much for them. 

To the one who said something about my first problem in 6 months, I have had some minor other issues but been very fortunate I guess so far.  And this really isn't all that bad.  I just had a bit of doubt because she kept bringing up her "prefessional photographer" friend who was basically casting me as a douche.  And I really think I'm about as nice as I can be.

Feb 08 13 05:29 pm Link

Photographer

Daeda1us

Posts: 1067

Little Rock, Arkansas, US

John Choi wrote:
Ok thank you all.  Sorry I can't remember who said what, but to the people who said I should give jpegs, you're probably right.  But like I said, I have NEVER yet to have a problem with a model who said they couldn't open the files.  Also, I always ask them, "hey were you able to see the pics?"  and if not I will go back and do what I can to help.  I just figure they should want RAW since those files have the most data. 

To the photog who said I do too much, you're probably right.  I'm just having so much fun I just am very grateful to the models and generally want to do too much for them. 

To the one who said something about my first problem in 6 months, I have had some minor other issues but been very fortunate I guess so far.  And this really isn't all that bad.  I just had a bit of doubt because she kept bringing up her "prefessional photographer" friend who was basically casting me as a douche.  And I really think I'm about as nice as I can be.

TADA!!!!

Houston, we have found the problem.
big_smile

Daeda1us

Feb 08 13 05:31 pm Link

Photographer

DavidCoward Photography

Posts: 629

Sandy Springs, Georgia, US

In a TF shoot, I don't give all the images to the model, in any format. She gets the ones I process, period. I'm more than happy to process some of her choosing but so far every model has been content with my choices.

The ones I do give are in jpg format, and resized for web use. (800 px wide so they can be immediately used on this site.) If she needs a higher resolution for printing, I'll gladly provide it.

But there's no way I'll give out the raw unedited files.

Feb 08 13 05:31 pm Link

Photographer

John Choi

Posts: 36

Torrance, California, US

Darren Brade wrote:
No, not rude, just inexperienced.

Photographers do shoot RAW, but rarely give them to anyone. Convert them to jpg and give the models that instead.

Converting the photos is part of the development process and does the model really need more than the ones you both agreed should be edited?

Darren
www.facebook.com/darrenbradephotography

Feb 08 13 05:32 pm Link

Photographer

John Choi

Posts: 36

Torrance, California, US

Darren Brade wrote:
No, not rude, just inexperienced.

Photographers do shoot RAW, but rarely give them to anyone. Convert them to jpg and give the models that instead.

Converting the photos is part of the development process and does the model really need more than the ones you both agreed should be edited?

Darren
www.facebook.com/darrenbradephotography

Ok, see I can't even do this forum thing correctly. 

Yes I agree inexperienced.  Ok, I'll start giving out Jpegs.  But again, i've never had anyone else have issues...

Feb 08 13 05:33 pm Link

Photographer

John Choi

Posts: 36

Torrance, California, US

Shon D.- Homme wrote:
Fuck her. She can convert the files herself.

Haha!  Too funny.

Feb 08 13 05:35 pm Link

Photographer

John Choi

Posts: 36

Torrance, California, US

DavidCoward Photography wrote:
In a TF shoot, I don't give all the images to the model, in any format. She gets the ones I process, period. I'm more than happy to process some of her choosing but so far every model has been content with my choices.

The ones I do give are in jpg format, and resized for web use. (800 px wide so they can be immediately used on this site.) If she needs a higher resolution for printing, I'll gladly provide it.

But there's no way I'll give out the raw unedited files.

why wouldn't you ever give out raw unedited files?  I would guess it's to protect your property?  I guess I'm just not at that stage yet.

Feb 08 13 05:36 pm Link

Photographer

karenjerzykphotography

Posts: 1752

Boston, Massachusetts, US

I would NEVER give a model the RAW files, and if I give them any original files, I make sure they sign my release that pretty much says I'll rip there heads off if I see them re-edited anywhere by anyone OTHER than me.

also, I never understood why photographers give out so many images. If I shoot 400 photos, I usually give them 3-5, IF that. When I shoot, I'm literally looking for that "holy shit" photos...If all 399 of the others don't do that to me, I'm not worried. I feel as if BOTH the models AND photographers should have 200 photos from the same set in their port...Just saying.

I think if you keep the numbers low, it'll really help you out. I've NEVER given out all my images and have NEVER had a problem. My judgement's good- I'm not going to choose a handful of photos that make the model look terrible, and they know that, so they never ask. I also explain this clearly before I shoot with someone (the 3-5 images thing), and all of them have understood.

Keep it simple, but also, yeah, fuck her.

Feb 08 13 05:40 pm Link

Model

Loriel Hunter

Posts: 20

Jersey City, New Jersey, US

John Choi wrote:

why wouldn't you ever give out raw unedited files?  I would guess it's to protect your property?  I guess I'm just not at that stage yet.

Blah blah blah your an idiot

Feb 08 13 05:40 pm Link

Photographer

John Choi

Posts: 36

Torrance, California, US

Daeda1us wrote:

TADA!!!!

Houston, we have found the problem.
big_smile

Daeda1us

You're awesome.  And thank you for your comment in my port.  Love your work brother.

Feb 08 13 05:41 pm Link

Photographer

Cherrystone

Posts: 36718

Columbus, Ohio, US

John Choi wrote:

why wouldn't you ever give out raw unedited files?  I would guess it's to protect your property?  I guess I'm just not at that stage yet.

It's akin to handing out your negatives IMHO, and being at "that stage" has nothing to do with it.

In 13 yrs.....one model I've shot with has gotten her hands on raw files.
Out of hundreds.

Feb 08 13 05:42 pm Link

Photographer

John Choi

Posts: 36

Torrance, California, US

karenjerzykphotography wrote:
I would NEVER give a model the RAW files, and if I give them any original files, I make sure they sign my release that pretty much says I'll rip there heads off if I see them re-edited anywhere by anyone OTHER than me.

also, I never understood why photographers give out so many images. If I shoot 400 photos, I usually give them 3-5, IF that. When I shoot, I'm literally looking for that "holy shit" photos...If all 399 of the others don't do that to me, I'm not worried. I feel as if BOTH the models AND photographers should have 200 photos from the same set in their port...Just saying.

I think if you keep the numbers low, it'll really help you out. I've NEVER given out all my images and have NEVER had a problem. My judgement's good- I'm not going to choose a handful of photos that make the model look terrible, and they know that, so they never ask. I also explain this clearly before I shoot with someone (the 3-5 images thing), and all of them have understood.

Keep it simple, but also, yeah, fuck her.

thank you.  Great info.  still learning.  and having a lot of fun. hopefully the day doesn't come when it just sucks.

Feb 08 13 05:42 pm Link

Photographer

Cherrystone

Posts: 36718

Columbus, Ohio, US

Loriel Hunter wrote:

Blah blah blah your an idiot

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/271/175/601.jpg

Feb 08 13 05:43 pm Link

Photographer

John Choi

Posts: 36

Torrance, California, US

Loriel Hunter wrote:

Blah blah blah your an idiot

Yes probably true.  But I think you're very pretty.

Feb 08 13 05:44 pm Link

Photographer

DavidCoward Photography

Posts: 629

Sandy Springs, Georgia, US

DavidCoward Photography wrote:
In a TF shoot, I don't give all the images to the model, in any format. She gets the ones I process, period. I'm more than happy to process some of her choosing but so far every model has been content with my choices.

The ones I do give are in jpg format, and resized for web use. (800 px wide so they can be immediately used on this site.) If she needs a higher resolution for printing, I'll gladly provide it.

But there's no way I'll give out the raw unedited files.

John Choi wrote:
why wouldn't you ever give out raw unedited files?  I would guess it's to protect your property?  I guess I'm just not at that stage yet.

It's not that I'm at an advanced stage (I'm not), it's partly to protect my property but also because I don't want someone else editing/retouching my images. And I don't want the crappy ones to see the light of day.

There's no reason a model needs 400 pictures from a shoot.

Feb 08 13 05:47 pm Link

Photographer

Three Cats Photography

Posts: 853

Atlanta, Georgia, US

Dan K Photography wrote:
No, you are really generous. But you have to keep in mind that most people do not know what to do with raws. Just convert them before putting them on DVD.

+1

Feb 08 13 05:50 pm Link

Photographer

John Choi

Posts: 36

Torrance, California, US

DavidCoward Photography wrote:

DavidCoward Photography wrote:
In a TF shoot, I don't give all the images to the model, in any format. She gets the ones I process, period. I'm more than happy to process some of her choosing but so far every model has been content with my choices.

The ones I do give are in jpg format, and resized for web use. (800 px wide so they can be immediately used on this site.) If she needs a higher resolution for printing, I'll gladly provide it.

But there's no way I'll give out the raw unedited files.

It's not that I'm at an advanced stage (I'm not), it's partly to protect my property but also because I don't want someone else editing/retouching my images. And I don't want the crappy ones to see the light of day.

There's no reason a model needs 400 pictures from a shoot.

You're totally right.  I've seen my images altered and it's not fun.  But by stage I meant mostly that I don't haven't got to the point where I started charging anyone.  And not sure if I'll ever do that.  I'm ok financially so this is just out of love for photography.  I have just as many photos of trees and mountains and clouds.  Just thought it would be fun to shoot beautiful women and it's been very fun.

Feb 08 13 05:52 pm Link

Photographer

AJ_In_Atlanta

Posts: 12835

Atlanta, Georgia, US

What good are unedited images and why the hell would you want bad images out there with your name on them?

I see this request with new models, I would suggest you pick another model.  If they stick around they will realize that they have a desk full of coaster best used to keep soda rings off the furniture.  Only the best need to be shared with the world.

Feb 08 13 05:54 pm Link

Photographer

Jay Farrell

Posts: 13142

Nashville, Tennessee, US

I advise not giving all images from the shoot. Quality control is your job, and picking the very best, retouching them, and providing them to the model is a much more useful product for them.....as well as a better representation of your work. Give a moose a muffin, they want jam too. Giving into demands of divas gets you more divas. I'd go your separate ways with that one and rethink that policy.

Feb 08 13 05:57 pm Link

Photographer

DarrylPascoePhotography

Posts: 478

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

I know you thought you were being nice and you were in that you offered to retouch several images and then more that she chose. That being said you should be giving her jpegs. She shouldn't have to convert them to post them on her facebook or online portfolios. That's extra work that in my opinion is the photographers job to send the images finished and ready to the client or model. That being said if she asked rudely I would have something to say to her about it. It's one thing to say you are inexperienced and didn't really know any different but no reason to be rude about asking you about it. So IMHO you were trying to be nice and were both right and wrong at the same time lol.

What I would do....make a dvd of the images in jpeg and give it to her. Tell her you were under the impression she would have wanted the RAW images and will give her jpegs instead, but she did not have to be rude about it and in future would be better to act more professional when working with others. This way you have done your part, she has complete and finished images and you can say you lived up to your end of the bargain sorta speak.

Feb 08 13 05:59 pm Link

Photographer

John Choi

Posts: 36

Torrance, California, US

AJScalzitti wrote:
What good are unedited images and why the hell would you want bad images out there with your name on them?

I see this request with new models, I would suggest you pick another model.  If they stick around they will realize that they have a desk full of coaster best used to keep soda rings off the furniture.  Only the best need to be shared with the world.

I suppose I should stop giving out all the pics.  My main reason for doing so is to help the model really see herself in a photo to help her to become a better model.  And since I don't have my name on it, I don't really care that it gets out even though it's not my best work.  I am only protective of my edited work.  I don't know, it's just a bunch of data bits.  I guess I should be more protective.

Feb 08 13 05:59 pm Link

Photographer

DavidCoward Photography

Posts: 629

Sandy Springs, Georgia, US

John Choi wrote:
You're totally right.  I've seen my images altered and it's not fun.  But by stage I meant mostly that I don't haven't got to the point where I started charging anyone.  And not sure if I'll ever do that.  I'm ok financially so this is just out of love for photography.  I have just as many photos of trees and mountains and clouds.  Just thought it would be fun to shoot beautiful women and it's been very fun.

I think we're at about the same level. I don't pay or charge, as this is primarily a creative outlet. Working with models is its own challenge for sure, but it's fun to collaborate with someone who is as interested in the creative process.

In regards to your OP, I'd say you're going waaay above and beyond what you need to do.

Feb 08 13 06:01 pm Link

Photographer

JAE

Posts: 2143

West Chester, Pennsylvania, US

I wouldn't give out RAW files, let alone expect a model to know what to do with them. If you want to give out that many files it should be in a format the model can open without any extra effort.

Feb 08 13 06:01 pm Link

Photographer

ontherocks

Posts: 22616

Salem, Oregon, US

i wouldn't give the model RAW format files unless she specifically requested that and i thought she could handle it.

Feb 08 13 06:03 pm Link

Photographer

Chuckarelei

Posts: 9566

Seattle, Washington, US

John Choi wrote:
I'm still relatively new to MM and also to fashion photography. But I've been doing it for over 6 months an have done quite a bit of shooting. Generally, I like to do a TF shoot where after I shoot with a model I give them a DVD or two of the entire shoot plus several edited photos. The number of edited photos varies but roughly it's about 2-5% depending on the number of images. For instance a typical shoot will have about 400 images and I will edit around 10-20 images. Furthermore, I usually will tell the model that if they like any of the non edited images, I'd be happy to edit or retouch a few of them. The images are in NEF format as I shoot with a Nikon camera.

Ok, so recently I shot a model and thought the shoot went great. When I emailed her some images she replied with "OMG I love these!"  So I was happy. We even scheduled a second shoot.

Then a week later she abruptly cancelled the shoot via text and wanted to know when she would receive the DVDs. This was about one week after the original shoot and I had already emailed her about 8 edited images. I told her I'd be happy to hand over the DVD if she meets me with a signed release which I gave her and forgot to get signed. I was planning on giving her the DVDs when we met for our shoot. An the tone of her texts were very cold and felt very different than previous correspondence.  We met a few days later and exchanged DVDs for release.

Now a few weeks later (original shoot was I think over a month ago) she texts me saying why can't she open the files. I advised her downloading a free software like Picasa an she should be able to view the files. I've sent dozens of these DVDs to different models and i have never heard of a problem.  I also advised her that she should get used to handling RAW files as I believe most photogs shoot in that format (please tell me if you guys agree).  Then after several texts she said something about it being not her job to convert files. She's the model and I'm the photographer an I'm waisting her time.  If she asked nicely, I would have actually gone back and converted all (I think over 400 images I think) images to JPEg but thought she was being so rude that I told her lets just go our separate ways.

Am I being unreasonable?  I really feel like I am not being unreasonable. I'd love to hear from models and photogs and anyone else who had an opinion.

Yes, you are being unreasonable. Many people do not know what RAW format files are. Just like if she poses for you in a corrugated box, you have to read her mind and figure how to decode the visual puzzle in order to see her without the box.

Make sense?

Feb 08 13 06:03 pm Link

Photographer

John Choi

Posts: 36

Torrance, California, US

DavidCoward Photography wrote:

I think we're at about the same level. I don't pay or charge, as this is primarily a creative outlet. Working with models is its own challenge for sure, but it's fun to collaborate with someone who is as interested in the creative process.

In regards to your OP, I'd say you're going waaay above and beyond what you need to do.

Thank you.  Hey I see you're in Korea!  awesome.  (pouring you a soju from Los angeles)

Feb 08 13 06:05 pm Link

Photographer

Chuckarelei

Posts: 9566

Seattle, Washington, US

Raw files are not the same as RAW format files.

Feb 08 13 06:05 pm Link