Forums > Digital Art and Retouching > Why there are bad retouchers out there?

Retoucher

Alejandro Crespo

Posts: 111

Santa Cruz, Santa Cruz, Bolivia

With all the info available these days out there (MM, youtube, workshops, dvds, books, etc), that give a good anchor point to compare ones work with. Why there are still a lot of people doing early 90's like basic retouching, with all kinds of strange effects and stuff?

Feb 20 13 06:49 pm Link

Retoucher

Krunoslav Stifter

Posts: 3883

Santa Cruz, California, US

Well, what do you think that is?

Feb 20 13 07:39 pm Link

Photographer

Kevin Connery

Posts: 16931

El Segundo, California, US

Alejandro Crespo wrote:
With all the info available these days out there (MM, youtube, workshops, dvds, books, etc), that give a good anchor point to compare ones work with. Why there are still a lot of people doing early 90's like basic retouching, with all kinds of strange effects and stuff?

I'm going to guess that it's for the same reason there are bad photographers, bad programmers, bad baseball players, bad painters....

Data is not knowledge, and knowledge is not skill.

Feb 20 13 07:54 pm Link

Photographer

GER Photography

Posts: 7953

Imperial, California, US

Because even people with absolutely NO artistic ability can buy PS??:-))

Feb 20 13 08:01 pm Link

Photographer

robert b mitchell

Posts: 1464

Surrey, British Columbia, Canada

As soon as some of them think they know something about retouching a number of them become Retouchers.... Their work is pathetic. The quality Retouchers have nothing to worry about. They know what they are doing and their skill is so evident in their work.  I have a person who knows what she is doing and is worth the cost.

Feb 20 13 08:04 pm Link

Photographer

robert b mitchell

Posts: 1464

Surrey, British Columbia, Canada

Artistic ability is so true. Also understanding light and shadow. tongue

Feb 20 13 08:06 pm Link

Retoucher

Alejandro Crespo

Posts: 111

Santa Cruz, Santa Cruz, Bolivia

But retouching is such a graphic sphere, where the idea of it is supposed to be that one should match any given image to an ideal of beauty that is widely accepted in the modern society. Of course there is some room for individual creativity, but the ideal of perfection is still the same, and its shown everywhere, i mean one can see the retouching that one has done and directly, anywhere compare with any add. It's not like other fields where one can create anything and just say, "this is my art, i see the world like this". You have to bring an image to a llama, the rules are given.

Today I was trying to find some fashion RAW images in the contest section, and saw some results of work that some people posted, and, damn, I mean, extraterrestrial skin tones that dont have any concept or composition, fluorescent eyes, incredibly exaggerated and not equilibrated color casts, cheap effects, ultra fake looking hair, etc. I mean, one must be blind if you cant watch at your image, to a magazine (any), to your image again and see that something is oddly wrong there lol. I totally accept that there are different styles and all, but there are a lot of "trash-level" stuff out there.

P.S. Saw 10 pages of that stuff, and only managed to find 1 fashion image that will be useful lol.

Feb 20 13 08:19 pm Link

Retoucher

Alexey Adamitsky

Posts: 226

Minsk, Minsk, Belarus

Kevin Connery wrote:
Data is not knowledge, and knowledge is not skill.

This is really good short answer and to the point. Read it twice and think for a minute.

Feb 20 13 10:40 pm Link

Retoucher

Ovidiu Oltean

Posts: 179

Sibiu, Sibiu, Romania

Kevin Connery wrote:

I'm going to guess that it's for the same reason there are bad photographers, bad programmers, bad baseball players, bad painters....

Data is not knowledge, and knowledge is not skill.

Amen !!!!

Feb 20 13 11:27 pm Link

Photographer

MarcMarayag

Posts: 77

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

looking through your port i can say that you are a pot calling the kettle black

with your argument you should have a phenomenal retouching portfolio with images that can be compared with people making the large $$

just like everyone says it is up to the individual - just like with everything in life

Feb 21 13 12:13 am Link

Retoucher

btdsgn

Posts: 2212

Wahiawa, Hawaii, US

George Ruge wrote:
Because even people with absolutely NO artistic ability can buy PS??:-))

Or download it... hmm

Feb 21 13 12:38 am Link

Photographer

GoldieImages

Posts: 143

Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia

It would be one or more of the following:
1. They lack knowledge.
2. They lack artistic ability.
3. They think they're good enough already (ala Dunning-Kruger effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2 … ger_effect).

Feb 21 13 12:41 am Link

Retoucher

The Invisible Touch

Posts: 717

Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain

Alejandro Crespo wrote:
But retouching is such a graphic sphere, where the idea of it is supposed to be that one should match any given image to an ideal of beauty that is widely accepted in the modern society. Of course there is some room for individual creativity, but the ideal of perfection is still the same, and its shown everywhere, i mean one can see the retouching that one has done and directly, anywhere compare with any add. It's not like other fields where one can create anything and just say, "this is my art, i see the world like this". You have to bring an image to a model, the rules are given.

Today I was trying to find some fashion RAW images in the contest section, and saw some results of work that some people posted, and, damn, I mean, extraterrestrial skin tones that dont have any concept or composition, fluorescent eyes, incredibly exaggerated and not equilibrated color casts, cheap effects, ultra fake looking hair, etc. I mean, one must be blind if you cant watch at your image, to a magazine (any), to your image again and see that something is oddly wrong there lol. I totally accept that there are different styles and all, but there are a lot of "trash-level" stuff out there.

P.S. Saw 10 pages of that stuff, and only managed to find 1 fashion image that will be useful lol.

That's a very interesting statement coming from you and based on your port... how can you judge your fellow retouchers that way if you are actually in the same group... I could understand it if you were a recognise professional but really??

Those people your talking about are just learning, give them the right to make mistakes and be creative on their own right way.. you should be creative too!!

Every professional was on that level at some point!!

Feb 21 13 02:31 am Link

Photographer

In Balance Photography

Posts: 3372

Boston, Massachusetts, US

GoldieImages wrote:
It would be one or more of the following:
1. They lack knowledge.
2. They lack artistic ability.
3. They think they're good enough already (ala Dunning-Kruger effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2 … ger_effect).

#3 - and the OP *really* needs to click that link

Feb 21 13 02:45 am Link

Photographer

Brian Ziff

Posts: 4105

Los Angeles, California, US

Bad is subjective.  I reserve the right to fuck up my pictures however I deem fit.

Feb 21 13 02:51 am Link

Photographer

Wolfy4u

Posts: 1103

Grand Junction, Colorado, US

In life, everyone is in a process of learning, whether it's being a musician, chef, re-toucher...  whatever.

On a scale of 1-100, some are going from 93-94, others from 6-7. It's the same for all pursuits.

Feb 21 13 02:57 am Link

Retoucher

Nienna1990

Posts: 568

Tel Aviv-Yafo, Tel Aviv, Israel

The Invisible Touch wrote:
That's a very interesting statement coming from you and based on your port... how can you judge your fellow retouchers that way if you are actually in the same group... I could understand it if you were a recognise professional but really??

Those people your talking about are just learning, give them the right to make mistakes and be creative on their own right way.. you should be creative too!!

Every professional was on that level at some point!!

Wow,  that was totally unsolicited...

Feb 21 13 04:12 am Link

Photographer

1472

Posts: 1059

Pembroke Pines, Florida, US

Nienna1990 wrote:

Wow,  that was totally unsolicited...

Lol true but he does have. Point

Feb 21 13 04:27 am Link

Photographer

Jeff Fiore

Posts: 9224

Pelham, New York, US

Alejandro Crespo wrote:
Why there are still a lot of people doing early 90's like basic retouching, with all kinds of strange effects and stuff?

Because they can?

With all the information out there about digital photography, how can a photographer not improve but some don't. Same with retouchers.

Feb 21 13 04:33 am Link

Photographer

Jeff Fiore

Posts: 9224

Pelham, New York, US

Alejandro Crespo wrote:
But retouching is such a graphic sphere, where the idea of it is supposed to be that one should match any given image to an ideal of beauty that is widely accepted in the modern society. Of course there is some room for individual creativity, but the ideal of perfection is still the same, and its shown everywhere, i mean one can see the retouching that one has done and directly, anywhere compare with any add. It's not like other fields where one can create anything and just say, "this is my art, i see the world like this". You have to bring an image to a model, the rules are given.

Today I was trying to find some fashion RAW images in the contest section, and saw some results of work that some people posted, and, damn, I mean, extraterrestrial skin tones that dont have any concept or composition, fluorescent eyes, incredibly exaggerated and not equilibrated color casts, cheap effects, ultra fake looking hair, etc. I mean, one must be blind if you cant watch at your image, to a magazine (any), to your image again and see that something is oddly wrong there lol. I totally accept that there are different styles and all, but there are a lot of "trash-level" stuff out there.

P.S. Saw 10 pages of that stuff, and only managed to find 1 fashion image that will be useful lol.

Some are still learning. Good retouching and good photoshopping in general has a LONG learning curve.

Feb 21 13 04:37 am Link

Retoucher

The Invisible Touch

Posts: 717

Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain

Nienna1990 wrote:

Wow,  that was totally unsolicited...

Maybe was a bit direct/harsh if so ... sorry but at the end of the day is the truth!! :-)

Feb 21 13 04:51 am Link

Photographer

Kent Art Photography

Posts: 2929

Ashford, England, United Kingdom

Maybe it's because they don't have to earn a living from it.

Feb 21 13 04:57 am Link

Photographer

PDF IMAGES PHOTOGRAPHY

Posts: 4603

Jacksonville, Florida, US

ones art is seen in a different light ! OP just market yourself, not judge others.

Feb 21 13 05:12 am Link

Photographer

descending chain

Posts: 1221

Fullerton, California, US

Because part of the learning process is developing taste.  Many have not yet reached the point where they realize what they have done is not good, and so they post it.  Some will never get over the first learning hill.

Feb 21 13 05:22 am Link

Retoucher

Alejandro Crespo

Posts: 111

Santa Cruz, Santa Cruz, Bolivia

In Balance Photography wrote:

#3 - and the OP *really* needs to click that link

Thanks smile. It clarifies a lot of things now.

The Invisible Touch wrote:
That's a very interesting statement coming from you and based on your port... how can you judge your fellow retouchers that way if you are actually in the same group... I could understand it if you were a recognise professional but really??

Those people your talking about are just learning, give them the right to make mistakes and be creative on their own right way.. you should be creative too!!

Every professional was on that level at some point!!

Oooow, im gonna cry in the bathroom lol.

But, anyway, i suppose that I've to answer that "attack":

1st, Thats not my portfolio (i dont have one, if you read some of my threads), just a bunch of pics I had tongue, arent so bad anyway.
2nd I didnt wrote anywhere that im a good retouchier, not even closer to state that im a professional, I didn't even started to offer any services openly yet nor do I have a website.
3rd  If they're still learning, why tha hell are they 2yr + on MM and still do the same things. Im not critizing the newbies, but the ones that are marketing themselves and offering services with the kind of stuff I mentioned earlier.

And last but not least:

An opinion can came from anywhere not regarding of their "portfolio" or "professional" level when the fact is there and anyone can point at it. Notice that i didnt personally mentioned anyone in my post, and hadnt gone personally against anyone.And will not do that, even taking out the fact that you did used an inadecuate tone with your statement.

Now, back from the personal, to the post theme:
As I said before, there are people that have been years doing "wrong" stuff (i know ,they can do whatever they want and bla bla), and continue doing the same stuff..

Its like NO ONE, EVER told them "dude, you should use a "little bit" less saturation and dont change the skin tone so much, and practice a littlebit more with your selections, one can see that that was photoshopped", and other CONSTRUCTIVE critics that would indeed accelerate their learning curves. ( notice that I never mentioned any destructive thing here so far, like "they should leave the business, go work anywhere else, etc", so please some of you stop thinking that I do think that lol, i dont).

I mean, this is supposed to be one of the places where reouching is flourishing and bla bla bla. I mean, shouldnt be a higher level of "bad" work here than in any random retouching forum with 200 users?. I thought that I wouldn't find that kind of work here cause people would be receiving good critics about they work.

There is a critic section here, but, how much of you go there and criticize the work of the "newbies" as some call them?. There are only 3-6 people giving constant feedback, and no one else.

Feb 21 13 06:52 am Link

Photographer

Fima Kurnia

Posts: 64

Jakarta, Jakarta, Indonesia

is this a discussion about the retouch?
not useful topic
Hahaa
Upsss Sory smile

Feb 21 13 07:06 am Link

Photographer

KonstantKarma

Posts: 2513

Hickory, North Carolina, US

Nobody ever taught them to shout "Bad retouch! Bad!" When fondled inappropriately by a clone stamp.

Feb 21 13 07:24 am Link

Model

C A K E M I X

Posts: 873

Louth, England, United Kingdom

KonstantKarma wrote:
Nobody ever taught them to shout "Bad retouch! Bad!" When fondled inappropriately by a clone stamp.

You go stand in the corner with the blur tool now!

Feb 21 13 07:32 am Link

Retoucher

Alejandro Crespo

Posts: 111

Santa Cruz, Santa Cruz, Bolivia

Brian Ziff wrote:
Bad is subjective.  I reserve the right to fuck up my pictures however I deem fit.

Its not subjective. Its true that there are individual styles that go out of the "normal" to give a certain effect that improves the overall "message" and composition (like in your photos, they're are great smile), but i do not mean that kind of work.

Im referring to cases of incorrect selection (selections that do not select only the thing one would want to select, but grabs a bite of the background for example) and the subsequent use of those selections, application of destructive filters and techniques, incorrect masking, extremal parameters in adjustments and so on. These things are totally objective.

C A K E M I X  wrote:

You go stand in the corner with the blur tool now!

LOL

Feb 21 13 07:33 am Link

Photographer

KonstantKarma

Posts: 2513

Hickory, North Carolina, US

Blur out everything!

Feb 21 13 07:39 am Link

Photographer

richy01

Posts: 153

Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands

Alejandro Crespo wrote:

In Balance Photography wrote:
#3 - and the OP *really* needs to click that link

Thanks smile. It clarifies a lot of things now.


Oooow, im gonna cry in the bathroom lol.

But, anyway, i suppose that I've to answer that "attack":

1st, Thats not my portfolio (i dont have one, if you read some of my threads), just a bunch of pics I had tongue, arent so bad anyway.
2nd I didnt wrote anywhere that im a good retouchier, not even closer to state that im a professional, I didn't even started to offer any services openly yet nor do I have a website.
3rd  If they're still learning, why tha hell are they 2yr + on MM and still do the same things. Im not critizing the newbies, but the ones that are marketing themselves and offering services with the kind of stuff I mentioned earlier.

And last but not least:

An opinion can came from anywhere not regarding of their "portfolio" or "professional" level when the fact is there and anyone can point at it. Notice that i didnt personally mentioned anyone in my post, and hadnt gone personally against anyone.And will not do that, even taking out the fact that you did used an inadecuate tone with your statement.

Now, back from the personal, to the post theme:
As I said before, there are people that have been years doing "wrong" stuff (i know ,they can do whatever they want and bla bla), and continue doing the same stuff..

Its like NO ONE, EVER told them "dude, you should use a "little bit" less saturation and dont change the skin tone so much, and practice a littlebit more with your selections, one can see that that was photoshopped", and other CONSTRUCTIVE critics that would indeed accelerate their learning curves. ( notice that I never mentioned any destructive thing here so far, like "they should leave the business, go work anywhere else, etc", so please some of you stop thinking that I do think that lol, i dont).

I mean, this is supposed to be one of the places where reouching is flourishing and bla bla bla. I mean, shouldnt be a higher level of "bad" work here than in any random retouching forum with 200 users?. I thought that I wouldn't find that kind of work here cause people would be receiving good critics about they work.

There is a critic section here, but, how much of you go there and criticize the work of the "newbies" as some call them?. There are only 3-6 people giving constant feedback, and no one else.

Strange to read your bio...and you say your PF isn't yours...?
As I well remember one of your images is used in the retouching DVD by Vitaly...
You say you want to get yourself into a higher level of professionalism, as many of the members of MM...why then trying to downgrade your fellowretouchers here?
You say you are good with images , not with words.
I am sorry to say i have to disagree with the first but I agree with your second statement...Your images aren't bad but neither smashing...and indeed.. you're not good with words

Feb 21 13 07:49 am Link

Photographer

Ron Spackman

Posts: 210

High River, Alberta, Canada

Duh! There are bad retouchers out there for the same reasons that there are bad photographers, bad models, bad teachers, bad plumbers...

Feb 21 13 07:50 am Link

Retoucher

AKMac

Posts: 330

London, England, United Kingdom

Alejandro, you need to turn your attention away from retouchers who you think are bad, and turn your attention to those who are worth appreciating and learning from. It's the same for all of us. Most of us are constantly trying to become better, because we are constantly inspired by looking at work which is better.

Feb 21 13 07:53 am Link

Retoucher

Retouch007

Posts: 403

East Newark, New Jersey, US

AKMac wrote:
Alejandro, you need to turn your attention away from retouchers who you think are bad, and turn your attention to those who are worth appreciating and learning from. It's the same for all of us. Most of us are constantly trying to become better, because we are constantly inspired by looking at work which is better.

+1

Feb 21 13 07:58 am Link

Retoucher

Megan E Griscom

Posts: 453

Bordentown, New Jersey, US

Someone mentioned taste level and I think that's probably the best answer. There is no accounting for taste, you need to have an eye for beauty and not everyone does, which I suppose is as it should be. That's is how the world works. Why do folks show the world their chunky midriff in a crop top? Why do people dye their hair purple or pink? Why do women still have dragon lady nails in 2013? Everyone's perception of beauty is subjective. There are a million examples of poor taste out there and those folks are perfectly happy to wear it like  badge.

I've been retouching since August and I've learned a lot on the practice images here on MM. There are some really good retouchers on MM that have mastered the craft, some who are learning, and some who will never have the taste level necessary to do good work.

The photographers that have criticized my work and told me what was wrong with it is where I learned the most. Critique is so important.

But starting a thread bashing whom you deem unworthy seems really mean and will never resolve any of the issues you speak of.

Feb 21 13 08:14 am Link

Retoucher

Alejandro Crespo

Posts: 111

Santa Cruz, Santa Cruz, Bolivia

AKMac wrote:
Alejandro, you need to turn your attention away from retouchers who you think are bad, and turn your attention to those who are worth appreciating and learning from. It's the same for all of us. Most of us are constantly trying to become better, because we are constantly inspired by looking at work which is better.

you misunderstood me. I dont put any attention to them, I just saw the pics yesterday while searching something for retouch and just had to make the question smile.

Btw, now that I got some attention here, does anyone know where to get some good fashion raws to try on? smile.

richy01 wrote:
Strange to read your bio...and you say your PF isn't yours...?
As I well remember one of your images is used in the retouching DVD by Vitaly...
You say you want to get yourself into a higher level of professionalism, as many of the members of MM...why then trying to downgrade your fellowretouchers here?
You say you are good with images , not with words.
I am sorry to say i have to disagree with the first but I agree with your second statement...Your images aren't bad but neither smashing...and indeed.. you're not good with words

Im not downgrading anyone, just asking about a fact.

The retouching dvd image, is the only good quality file that ive retouched ever, thats why is the only one I have there (i retouched it myself btw lol), the rest are just personal photowork, and thanks for saying that theyre ok, all of them have heavy retouching done to them (and I mean, a lot) but they where meant to be like that, they're not even close to commercial level.

I raised this thread in part because there is almost no one criticizing works on the critic forum, and now that i poked a littlebit the bees-nest.   need critique there if you dont like my work, please say why, and dont let me stand with the incorrect ones !

http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=881083 big_smile big_smile please.

And sorry for my bad english, its my 3rd language and i learned it from movies and videogames -.-.

Feb 21 13 08:14 am Link

Photographer

365 Digitals Exposed

Posts: 757

Perris, California, US

since unsolicited critics are now allow here. I would like to ask the OP in what category do you position yourself at this point of your short career. please answer me with honesty.
1) very experience
2)experience
3)some experience
4)Intermediate
5)Beginner.
6)Zero experience just messing around.
7) Wanna be Retoucher.

depending on your answer, we'll see why .there's so many bad retouchers in this industry .. some people think is very good at what they do, even though they are far away from reality.

Feb 21 13 08:19 am Link

Retoucher

Ken Fournelle

Posts: 99

Saint Paul, Minnesota, US

Why are there bad retouchers complaining about bad retouchers?

Just asking. :-)

Feb 21 13 08:21 am Link

Retoucher

Alejandro Crespo

Posts: 111

Santa Cruz, Santa Cruz, Bolivia

365 Digitals Exposed wrote:
since unsolicited critics are now allow here. I would like to ask the OP in what category do you position yourself at this point of your short career. please answer me with honesty.
1) very experience
2)experience
3)some experience
4)Intermediate
5)Beginner.
6)Zero experience just messing around.
7) Wanna be Retoucher.

depending on your answer, we'll see why .there's so many bad retouchers in this industry .. some people think is very good at what they do, even though they are far away from reality.

solid 5 and im not criticizing, just asking about a fact that I observed around. Have I mentioned names or something? Im talking about a phenomena, not about concrete people. Now, Im the one whos getting unsolicited critique here...

Ken Fournelle wrote:
Why are there bad retouchers complaining about bad retouchers?

Just asking. :-)

To get critique from the better ones smile. And thanks for the unsolicited critique too wink

Alejandro Crespo wrote:
I raised this thread in part because there is almost no one criticizing works on the critic forum, and now that i poked a littlebit the bees-nest.  i need critique there if you dont like my work, please say why, and dont let me stand with the incorrect ones!

http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=881083   please. big_smile

Feb 21 13 08:24 am Link

Photographer

M Pandolfo Photography

Posts: 12116

Tampa, Florida, US

Kevin Connery wrote:
I'm going to guess that it's for the same reason there are bad photographers, bad programmers, bad baseball players, bad painters....

Data is not knowledge, and knowledge is not skill.

Exactly.

Why does every mother on Facebook think their baby is the most beautiful creation since the dawn of man? Nope, sometimes it's just an ugly baby.

It has more to do with the way people think and perceive. Very few of us can objectively critique our own work.

Feb 21 13 08:29 am Link