Forums > Off-Topic Discussion > Questions for photags? (rant) Frustrated :(

Model

n p

Posts: 257

New York, New York, US

Hey guys! Sorry this is long!

So this is sort of a rant and a question because I seem to be getting in this...really frustrating situation time and time again with photographers who do TF work.
I'm not here to bash anyone or criticize, I just want to discuss the logistics behind how some photographers work when it comes to TF and why I'm frustrated with the end result.
I've worked with great photographers who are great people. This isn't about them personally. I just wanted to put that out there, I've worked with a handful of togs who are just awesome people. But as photographers there is compromise that is always difficult to work out.

So here's the general scenario.
I've gone to shoots where the shoot was stated to be "TF" so I work my ass off for 4-6 hours in crazy weather conditions and come back home with blisters, swollen hands, a fever, yadda yadda, all in the name for fashion and being dedicated to my work. Good stuff!
I've had to face the utter disappointment of really challenging myself at shoot and then getting 2-3 final photos of the PHOTOGRAPHER'S choosing  without ever getting to see the other photos. Needless to say those 2 final photos the tog chooses are useless shots that I don't use due to my posing or is irrelevant to put in my port.
So never again did I agree to do TF without seeing a contact sheet or proofs of all the photos from the shoot so that I can AT LEAST see my poses, see what I'm doing wrong, and pose better.
For the sake of my learning experience, togs have been nice enough to show me proofs, and its never been a problem asking for them since.

But here lies the real problem with me and TF.
Can someone tell me why photographers are so reluctant to let the model choose what photos she/he wants in their port?
I understand that concept of model releases, models don't have any rights to their photos (even if they are the object that makes the photo and its their ass showing in that editorial swimsuit look, but whatever) and that photos aren't allowed to be on the model's other portfolio websites without consent, blah blah blah more rules, blah. Ok. Agreed. As long as I'm shooting with someone who looks reasonable and professional I'll sign. Signed.
So after 2-3 of patiently waited weeks the day comes where I get to see a proof sheet of the photos. The tog already picked his/her favorites and has them retouched as they desire. They chose the photos they are proud of the most and are useful to their port. It is TF after all right?
Then why are models not allowed the same privilege?

Here is what I'm getting at.
After I see the proofs I like to pick out a reasonable amount of images (2-4) from the lot that I am most confident as model.
Meaning my posing is on key/The images show flattering angles on my behalf./The images are versatile and will add and benefit to my current port.
When it comes to what I want and my fair share of TF, things almost alwaaayysss get awkward and excuses are being pulled out.
I pick my  photos and the tog will say
"Well I didn't like the lighting or the way I shot that. It doesn't represent me as a photographer"
Well...yeah but, that one close up you did of me made my nostrils look huge and it doesn't represent me as model, but I don't wanna be that guy to take a shot you're so proud of as a photographer and say, well you can't use that because you picked my ugliest pose or captured the ugliest angle.
So I'm fair. And I don't.  But no dice.
So I pick another photo.
Example photag will say "Hmm...yeah but..I'll have to think about that one."
Great. 3 months pass by, he final sends me an edit of one of my choices and by that time its completely useless and I have new material.

Am I crazy? Or is there something unfair in this?
Ultimately, when I discuss trade with a tog and we agree that I get to choose photos that I wish to have in my port that will benefit me JUST as much as their choosing will benefit them. But when it comes down to it, I'm usually cheated out of getting my fair share. And it sucks because I avoid confrontation and I don't know how to address the situation firmly but  eloquently.

Some togs have pulled the "Oh if you don't like the way you posed in that picture I picked, and you want the one with you posing better, then why was that pose done in the first place?"
I mean are you kidding?! That doesn't even make any sense.
I'm not being paid to do excellent posing that I know will work. In TF I have the freedom of trying out new poses and learn what works and what doesnt. Of course out of 300 photos the tog took there are bound to be shots where my angles are off. So why am I not entitled to the photos where my posing is great? Why does become so much more tricky than it should be?
Am I being unfair, or unrealistic? Do I have a warped perception of how TF works?
I am just as concerned with my modeling reputation as togs are concerned with their photography reputation. Can someone please explain to me why this happens so often?

Again, I don't want to be crude, unreasonable, or annoying.
I just want to genuinely understand. Maybe TF isn't what I think it is?
This is all my perspective, let me hear yours so I can have a better understanding.
Thank you.


PS!
This is not about working with agency represented photographers. I've worked with them and the work isn't TF its a paid assignment form one of the ends.
This is an issue on TF. So meaning photags who are working on their ports as I am working on mine.
We both want something that will add to our ports.


Nicole Packs  wrote:
Guys...
some of you still don't get what I'm trying to say.
This isn't about me not liking his work. This is about me not liking his decision on the "best" photo out of the lot and not allowing me to have my own opinion of what I think the best photo is.

Look.
There are 15 images for example.
The photag chooses image A as a final retouched photo to use in HIS port.
But out of the 15 photos I want to have image B bc the pose is stronger and beneficial to MY port. 
All 15 images are greatly captured, but the photag will pick what he has captured the best through a photographer's perspective.
And I would like to pick the best out of that 15 where I have posed the best through a model's perspective.
When a photag tells me that no, image A is superior and therefore is the only image I can use in my port, I find that unfair. Because that is his opinion as photographer.
But as a model I only see that image B is the better photo AS A MODEL.
Hence why I believe the photag should have image A for his port and I should have image B for my port and we are both happy.

Apr 01 13 06:30 pm Link

Photographer

Blue Cube Imaging

Posts: 11292

Ashland, Oregon, US

Moderator Note!
Moved to off-topic. Rants are not allowed in the industry forums.

Apr 01 13 06:31 pm Link

Model

n p

Posts: 257

New York, New York, US

My apologies!

Apr 01 13 06:32 pm Link

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Model

Koryn

Posts: 36708

Boston, Massachusetts, US

That's just the way it works.

Photographers take photos, and are the ones who OWN the images, so they are in control of what you receive.

Don't like it? You can either get over it, or select some other occupation/hobby, that you feel more in control of.

You aren't going to change the lay of the land by complaining about it. It's just not going to happen.

Apr 01 13 06:36 pm Link

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Photographer

Giacomo Cirrincioni

Posts: 21373

New York, New York, US

That's a lot of ground to cover!

I shoot trade with llamas but usually it's because they require something specific and, if I shoot that for them, they'll shoot with me.  Sometimes it's just because I'm working on something cool and the llama wants to be a part of it.  But usually it's more of a relaxed thing between friends, which is kind of how it's supposed to be. 

If I'm taking a head shot of you, I (and you) only need one.  I select down to the best few, and show you. I already know which one I'm going to use.  If you like one of the other selects better, that's fine.  But ultimately, you're coming to me, I would hope, because you like what I do and you want me to do what I do, with you.

You're more than welcome to come buy while I go through the editing process and see what I'm doing, but I'm not releasing a ton of photos to you.  Hell, I don't even shoot that many in the first place.  Also, a lot of the time, for personal projects especially, I still shoot film.  I judge what I want by looking at the negatives (or positives) under a loupe on a light table.  I'm not going to scan them all for you to review.

Now, if we shoot a few times, or if I know you through friends, or if we just have a good relationship, then maybe I'll collaborate with you on something and that's a different matter all together.  But that doesn't happen after a test shoot.

You're local, I wouldn't mind photographing you, but I don't really need your look (same way you might not need the kind of photos I take).  If I'm shoot trade with you, it's not really a collaboration for me (just as it wouldn't be for you in that case).  If I did shoot you then that's how I work and I can't really do what I do any other way.  So, my job is to be very upfront with you before we agree to a shoot, and your job is to either agree to the terms, make a counter offer I might find acceptable, or decline.  It's pretty simple.

If you're getting photos you can't use, you might want to evaluate the photographers a bit better before shooting with them.  You might like my work, for example, but feel that it is not something you would put in your portfolio.  If that's the case, you shouldn't shoot trade with me.

Apr 01 13 06:40 pm Link

Model

n p

Posts: 257

New York, New York, US

Koryn Locke wrote:
That's just the way it works.

Photographers take photos, and are the ones who OWN the images, so they are in control of what you receive.

Don't like it? You can either get over it, or select some other occupation/hobby, that you feel more in control of.

You aren't going to change the lay of the land by complaining about it. It's just not going to happen.

I'm not complaining.
Sure I'm frustrated, but I want to understand why it is the way it is.
Because TF doesn't feel like a well rounded trade.
Not looking to change anything either, I just want to understand the other perspective and discuss mine.

Apr 01 13 06:41 pm Link

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Photographer

Giacomo Cirrincioni

Posts: 21373

New York, New York, US

Nicole Packs  wrote:

I'm not complaining.
Sure I'm frustrated, but I want to understand why it is the way it is.
Because TF doesn't feel like a well rounded trade.
Not looking to change anything either, I just want to understand the other perspective and discuss mine.

Well it really isn't, nor was it ever.  It only has sort of gotten that way due to the interwebs.

Apr 01 13 06:42 pm Link

Photographer

Schlake

Posts: 2586

Socorro, New Mexico, US

The problem is that you are picking photographers who are treating you like a disposable piece of meat.  Get better photographers who respect you as a person and understand that this is a collaboration between two creative people.

Apr 01 13 06:43 pm Link

Photographer

lightscapes

Posts: 349

Phoenix, Arizona, US

You are a young, attractive gal.  Lots of people will ask you to shoot TF with them and you should say yes to many.  But the rest is pretty simple.

  Ask for what you want, if it is crucial for you to pick the shots then say so, expect your images back within a reasonable time frame and get a reasonably firm idea of how many shots are to be returned.

  Write it down, you and photographer both sign and each keep a copy. Photographer does not want to sign, then no shoot.  Discuss this ahead of time so that there are no surprises for either of you.  Can that piece of paper be enforced ?  Not likely and certainly not worth the hassle, but it will definitely keep you from wasting 6 hours standing out in the freezing cold with same photographer again.

   It works.


  P.S.  Many photographers will object to being called "togs" !  Just saying. FYI.

Apr 01 13 06:45 pm Link

Photographer

PhotographybyT

Posts: 7692

Monterey, California, US

I can't believe I read all that! (lol)

I guess the easiest solution is to negotiate terms before shooting when it comes to trades.

Apr 01 13 06:45 pm Link

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Photographer

Giacomo Cirrincioni

Posts: 21373

New York, New York, US

Schlake wrote:
The problem is that you are picking photographers who are treating you like a disposable piece of meat.  Get better photographers who respect you as a person and understand that this is a collaboration between two creative people.

Except she's in NYC, and she want's to work in fashion (from what I gather reading her profile) and that means shooting with fashion shooters who, by and large, will not see it as a collaboration between two creative people.  You can't swing a dead cat in NYC without hitting a girl who will mutilate small animals to be photographed by anyone with more than a modicum of skill.  The signed agency girls are selective, but even they are plentiful if you have your act together.

The best photographers in the city will not treat her any better, but they will deliver better results, which, in the end, is all that really matters.  Yes, some are great guys and some are jerks, but the jerks are just as busy (if not busier).  It's all about what you produce.

Apr 01 13 06:50 pm Link

Model

n p

Posts: 257

New York, New York, US

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
If I'm taking a head shot of you, I (and you) only need one.  I select down to the best few, and show you. I already know which one I'm going to use.  If you like one of the other selects better, that's fine.  But ultimately, you're coming to me, I would hope, because you like what I do and you want me to do what I do, with you.

And thats completely fine!
But I'd love the opportunity to select my own photos.
What I'm trying to say is, even though I am coming to you, if I don't like a photo of your choosing, its not usually due to to how I see myself as a model in that photo. Not how to took it. Maybe you chose something that I already have done similarly in my port? Maybe my mouth was open a little too wide. I dunno anything! Point is, I'm not proud of the photo as a model. I'm not questioning your skill or your work.


Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
You're local, I wouldn't mind photographing you, but that's how I work and I can't really do what I do any other way.  So, my job is to be very upfront with you before we agree to a shoot, and your job is to either agree to the terms, make a counter offer I might find acceptable, or decline.  It's pretty simple.

Absolutely.
Discussion before the actual shoot is very important, which is why I do it. But I mentioned in the original post that there are time where I get cheated out of what was earlier agreed on over the phone or in non-official writing.
In previous events, when it came down to my choosing, it became a problem all of the sudden. Sometimes the tog would not even give room for discussion. No was no.
I don't want to have to approach a tog and be that crazy model that forces upfront promises and compromises before a shoot. "Well you're going to do this right? And I'm going to get this FOR SURE, right?" I feel as though that would be uncomfortable for the both of us.
I like to keep things simple just as much as the tog. I just don't like the rules being switched around on me.

Apr 01 13 06:51 pm Link

Model

n p

Posts: 257

New York, New York, US

   Lightscapes wrote:
You are a young, attractive gal.  Lots of people will ask you to shoot TF with them and you should say yes to many.  But the rest is pretty simple.

  Ask for what you want, if it is crucial for you to pick the shots then say so, expect your images back within a reasonable time frame and get a reasonably firm idea of how many shots are to be returned.

  Write it down, you and photographer both sign and each keep a copy. Photographer does not want to sign, then no shoot.  Discuss this ahead of time so that there are no surprises for either of you.  Can that piece of paper be enforced ?  Not likely and certainly not worth the hassle, but it will definitely keep you from wasting 6 hours standing out in the freezing cold with same photographer again.

   It works.


  P.S.  Many photographers will object to being called "togs" !  Just saying. FYI.

Sorry! the togs is just for short bc it was such a long post. I don't mean to insult.

But anyway, what you're saying is, I could make my own release form to avoid these situations?
Models can make a release form?

Apr 01 13 06:54 pm Link

Photographer

John Carman

Posts: 369

San Francisco, California, US

I don't see what's wrong in letting the model participate in the process of choosing photos to edit. I always go through all the images right after the shoot, with the model, and let her say "yes" or "no" to each. I'll wheedle and kibbutz. Models generally say "yes" to somewhere between 40 and 60 pics. Then I choose photos to edit from those. It's a system that's worked for me, for a decade. The model gets only photos she's approved of, and I have quite a lot of latitude in selecting the right photos.

Apr 01 13 06:55 pm Link

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Photographer

Giacomo Cirrincioni

Posts: 21373

New York, New York, US

Nicole Packs  wrote:

Sorry! the togs is just for short bc it was such a long post. I don't mean to insult.

But anyway, what you're saying is, I could make my own release form to avoid these situations?
Models can make a release form?

No.  You could make a work for hire contract, but you don't really want to, it's not worth it.  Find photographers whose portfolio is filled with the kind of images you want, and shoot with them.

Apr 01 13 06:56 pm Link

Photographer

Amelia G

Posts: 559

Los Angeles, California, US

If you are looking to shoot fashion, get an agency, and test with the photographers the agency recommends. If the agency tells you an image is going to be best for your goals, trust their expertise.

Until then, discuss with the photographer beforehand what you would like to get. Don't be afraid to walk away from a shoot, if it is not what you want.

For example, I would never show a model the whole shoot; some images are just not winners. However, on the rare occasions I shoot trade, the model generally gets hundreds of fully-retouched images.

Apr 01 13 06:57 pm Link

Model

n p

Posts: 257

New York, New York, US

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:

Except she's in NYC, and she want's to work in fashion (from what I gather reading her profile) and that means shooting with fashion shooters who, by and large, will not see it as a collaboration between two creative people.  You can't swing a dead cat in NYC without hitting a girl who will mutilate small animals to be photographed by anyone with more than a modicum of skill.  The signed agency girls are selective, but even they are plentiful if you have your act together.

The best photographers in the city will not treat her any better, but they will deliver better results, which, in the end, is all that really matters.  Yes, some are great guys and some are jerks, but the jerks are just as busy (if not busier).  It's all about what you produce.

Just a little clarification!
When I do TF I am normally working with photographers who are fashion ORIENTED. Not actually working in the agency industry.
If I was working with an agency represented photographer, that'd be a completely different story.
I am not under agency rep (yet) which is why I don't work with agency rep photags because then its a play of payment. Either I pay him for great shots in my port, or he(or the designer) pays me where I absolutely have no control or access to the photos, which is absolutely fair bc thats the job.

So the TF photags I normally work with are port building too who shoot in the high-end, agency approved style that we are both working towards for.

Apr 01 13 06:58 pm Link

Photographer

Will Snizek Photography

Posts: 1387

Beckley, West Virginia, US

Maybe find more flexible photographers.  I don't think 2 photos is acceptable from a trade shoot. It is supposed to be a mutually beneficial trade.

Apr 01 13 07:00 pm Link

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Photographer

Giacomo Cirrincioni

Posts: 21373

New York, New York, US

Nicole Packs  wrote:

Just a little clarification!
When I do TF I am normally working with photographers who are fashion ORIENTED. Not actually working in the agency industry.
If I was working with an agency represented photographer, that'd be a completely different story.
I am not under agency rep (yet) which is why I don't work with agency rep photags because then its a play of payment. Either I pay him for great shots in my port, or he(or the designer) pays me where I absolutely have no control or access to the photos, which is absolutely fair bc thats the job.

So the TF photags I normally work with are port building too who shoot in the high-end, agency approved style that we are both working towards for.

And that's what you should be doing.  I think you could do a bit better in selecting them and, you might find that some of the guys you think you would have to pay, you wouldn't as long as you were nice and fun to be around.

Apr 01 13 07:01 pm Link

Model

n p

Posts: 257

New York, New York, US

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:

And that's what you should be doing.  I think you could do a bit better in selecting them and, you might find that some of the guys you think you would have to pay, you wouldn't as long as you were nice and fun to be around.

I guess thats just my problem then hmm
Thing is, I meet well rounded TF oriented photags, and they genuinely look and sound like they are willing to compromise.
Then I feel like I get taken advantage of when whats been said isn't done. I don't know how to confront it.

Apr 01 13 07:04 pm Link

Photographer

Philip II Aqua

Posts: 75

Dallas, Texas, US

What you're asking is completely reasonable - and essentially is what I do for TF shoots. It's important to me that the model is happy with their pictures and feels their time was well spent.

That said, every photographer has their own way of doing things and I can't speak for them. My advise is that when setting up a shoot, you get all this straightened out with the photographer beforehand, so hopefully you won't be disappointed.

Apr 01 13 07:04 pm Link

Photographer

NewBoldPhoto

Posts: 4897

PORT MURRAY, New Jersey, US

Nicole Packs  wrote:

I guess thats just my problem then hmm
Thing is, I meet well rounded TF oriented photags, and they genuinely look and sound like they are willing to compromise.
Then I feel like I get taken advantage of when whats been said isn't done. I don't know how to confront it.

If your reason for shooting is portfolio development then don't work with anyone who's worst portfolio image is anything you would not be happy to put in your portfolio. And then clearly and politely communicate your needs and expectations from the beginning.

Apr 01 13 07:15 pm Link

Photographer

Abbitt Photography

Posts: 11720

Oakland Acres, Iowa, US

When you go to a restaurant, do you expect to go back into the kitchen and choose what pieces of chicken, etc. they use in your meal?   It's no different with photography - most photographers choose to provide what they feel is a finished product that meets their specifications.

Models do have choice, just as a restaurant goer has a choice.  You have the choice of which photographers to work with.   If you feel a photographer will not provide you with good images, then don't choose to do a shoot with that photographer.  Also, I provide models with 10+ images from every shoot.  The model has a great deal of choice - she can choose to use anywhere between none to all of those images. What she chooses to use, is her choice, not mine.

Blaming the other party does you no good.  You have choices.  Make choices that will benefit you.  If you are not getting what you need from TF, then stop wasting your time on such shoots and pay a reputable photographer to provide you with images you will value.

Apr 01 13 07:19 pm Link

Model

n p

Posts: 257

New York, New York, US

NewBoldPhoto wrote:
If your reason for shooting is portfolio development then don't work with anyone who's worst portfolio image is anything you would not be happy to put in your portfolio. And then clearly and politely communicate your needs and expectations from the beginning.

No no, I think I didn't make myself clear with my original post because some of you are posting as if I'm picking a photographer without knowing what I'm getting myself into.
When I pick a photag I'm picking them bc I like the way they shoot and I like the style of their photos.
What I'm saying is that regardless of how well and amazing they took the shot of me, there is still a possibility that I have posed badly in that photo.
And its not the photographer's fault by any means! Its just a bad angle, bad timing, and I didn't pick the best pose.
What frustrates me is that a photag will pick a final photo that I feel did not have me posing at my best angle in comparison to another photo  that I may have posed better in.  I would like to be entitled to pick photos that I most confident in as a llama, not how well the photag took the picture because the majority of them are great captures anyway!


Am I clearer on this now?

Apr 01 13 07:23 pm Link

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Photographer

Justin

Posts: 21892

Fort Collins, Colorado, US

Nicole Packs  wrote:
Can someone tell me why photographers are so reluctant to let the model choose what photos she/he wants in their port?

In trade shoots, my agreement with the model, sometimes written sometimes not but always the agreement, is that we each have veto power over what shots can be published. She exercises her veto power by saying, "Not this." I exercise mine by not letting the shots out that I don't like.

So the answer to the quoted question is, "Because I don't want what I see as crap out there with my name on it." (And perhaps you think, well, that's my entire portfolio. I can't help that. I'm talking how I feel.)

If a model approached me with your concerns, I'd be amenable, on a trade shoot, to giving her batch-reduced smaller, lesser-res files to look at, and she could give her preferences about which ones she likes, and I could. I'd suggest communicating your concerns as you've done here (but perhaps just a tad bit shorter).

Apr 01 13 07:24 pm Link

Model

n p

Posts: 257

New York, New York, US

Guys...
some of you still don't get what I'm trying to say.
This isn't about me not liking his work. This is about me not liking his decision on the "best" photo out of the lot and not allowing me to have my own opinion of what I think the best photo is.

Look.
There are 15 images for example.
The photag chooses image A as a final retouched photo to use in HIS port.
But out of the 15 photos I want to have image B bc the pose is stronger and beneficial to MY port. 
All 15 images are greatly captured, but the photag will pick what he has captured the best through a photographer's perspective.
And I would like to pick the best out of that 15 where I have posed the best through a model's perspective.
When a photag tells me that no, image A is superior and therefore is the only image I can use in my port, I find that unfair. Because that is his opinion as photographer.
But as a model I only see that image B is the better photo AS A MODEL.
Hence why I believe the photag should have image A for his port and I should have image B for my port and we are both happy.

Apr 01 13 07:28 pm Link

Photographer

Edge of the Moon

Posts: 431

New York, New York, US

Next time you discuss a shoot with a photographer ask them if you will get to see all the pictures and pick which ones you like for your portfolio.  I see this as reasonable for a TF* shoot. You get images you like and the photographer gets images they like.

Apr 01 13 07:30 pm Link

Model

n p

Posts: 257

New York, New York, US

Edge of the Moon wrote:
Next time you discuss a shoot with a photographer ask them if you will get to see all the pictures and pick which ones you like for your portfolio.  I see this as reasonable for a TF* shoot. You get images you like and the photographer gets images they like.

Right, which is what I do.
But what do I do when a photographer becomes sensitive with his work doesn't allow me to pick my images anymore?

Apr 01 13 07:33 pm Link

Photographer

Edge of the Moon

Posts: 431

New York, New York, US

Nicole Packs  wrote:

Right, which is what I do.
But what do I do when a photographer becomes sensitive with his work doesn't allow me to pick my images anymore?

Sneeze into their lens.
They went back on their word then. n/g

Apr 01 13 07:36 pm Link

Photographer

NewBoldPhoto

Posts: 4897

PORT MURRAY, New Jersey, US

Nicole Packs  wrote:

No no, I think I didn't make myself clear with my original post because some of you are posting as if I'm picking a photographer without knowing what I'm getting myself into.
When I pick a photag I'm picking them bc I like the way they shoot and I like the style of their photos.
What I'm saying is that regardless of how well and amazing they took the shot of me, there is still a possibility that I have posed badly in that photo.
And its not the photographer's fault by any means! Its just a bad angle, bad timing, and I didn't pick the best pose.
What frustrates me is that a photag will pick a final photo that I feel did not have me posing at my best angle in comparison to another photo  that I may have posed better in.  I would like to be entitled to pick photos that I most confident in as a model, not how well the photag took the picture because the majority of them are great captures anyway!


Am I clearer on this now?

I don't think you get what we are trying to say.
You need to communicate your needs to the photographer up front and only work with those that are showing work that you need.
The reason a photographer isn't letting you use certain images is because they are bad images. A bad image drags your port down no matter how great your pose is.

Apr 01 13 07:38 pm Link

Photographer

ontherocks

Posts: 22603

Salem, Oregon, US

we let models choose. in fact i sent off 500 proofs today via dropbox to saturday's model.

we also shoot live into a TV so the model can provide feedback during the shoot.

if being able to choose is a showstopper for you then mention it early in the negotiation (or maybe even in your profile).

Apr 01 13 07:38 pm Link

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Photographer

Giacomo Cirrincioni

Posts: 21373

New York, New York, US

ontherocks wrote:
we let models choose. in fact i sent off 500 proofs today via dropbox to saturday's model.

we also shoot live into a TV so the model can provide feedback during the shoot.

if being able to choose is a showstopper for you then mention it early in the negotiation (or maybe even in your profile).

And you do this on a TF shoot?  I don't even do that for paying clients...

Apr 01 13 07:41 pm Link

Photographer

Solas

Posts: 9537

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

shoot with more photographers that don't suck to work with

Apr 01 13 07:42 pm Link

Photographer

Edge of the Moon

Posts: 431

New York, New York, US

ontherocks wrote:
we let models choose. in fact i sent off 500 proofs today via dropbox to saturday's model.

if being able to choose is a showstopper for you then mention it early in the negotiation (or maybe even in your profile).

^This is exactly what I do.
I just cull out very blurry shots or obviously awkward moments or pictures of my foot.
Model gets everything else, even bad poses, so she can see what she is doing and improve herself.

Apr 01 13 07:42 pm Link

Model

Lillian Faith

Posts: 296

Atlanta, Georgia, US

OP:

I completely see your point of view, and I agree. I would want pictures that are best for my port, even though they may not be the photogs favorite images.

Apr 01 13 07:48 pm Link

Photographer

ontherocks

Posts: 22603

Salem, Oregon, US

correct. i give our trade models all the shots. without a watermark. they can use the proofs on facebook if they like. and they can also let me know their favorites for retouching.

i don't see that there's any money to be made shooting models at my level (the latest thing is models become photographers so they can do trade shoots with the other models). i just do it for fun and practice and the things we do with models carry over when we shoot weddings, seniors, etc. (the things that pay the bills).

for paying clients we've gone to digital-only packages with anywhere from 10-50 images on CD depending on the package. but we choose the images that will go on the CD.

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
And you do this on a TF shoot?  I don't even do that for paying clients...

Apr 01 13 07:50 pm Link

guide forum

Photographer

Giacomo Cirrincioni

Posts: 21373

New York, New York, US

Lillian Faith wrote:
OP:

I completely see your point of view, and I agree. I would want pictures that are best for my port, even though they may not be the photogs favorite images.

I think we all agree with that.  But if you're on the same page with the right photographer, the four to eight final selects for each look should be the same.  Within those you might prefer one over another, which is perfectly reasonable.

Apr 01 13 07:51 pm Link

guide forum

Photographer

Giacomo Cirrincioni

Posts: 21373

New York, New York, US

ontherocks wrote:
correct. i give our trade models all the shots. without a watermark. they can use the proofs on facebook if they like. and they can also let me know their favorites for retouching.

i don't see that there's any money to be made shooting models at my level (the latest thing is models become photographers so they can do trade shoots with the other models). i just do it for fun and practice. things we do with models carry over when we shoot weddings, seniors, etc. (the things that pay the bills).

Fair enough.

Apr 01 13 07:52 pm Link

Model

n p

Posts: 257

New York, New York, US

Edge of the Moon wrote:

Sneeze into their lens.
They went back on their word then. n/g

Hahaaaa true, but they have my model release that I had to sign in order to shoot :p
Its a trap this whole time.

Apr 01 13 07:55 pm Link

Photographer

Lovely Day Media

Posts: 4276

Vineland, New Jersey, US

If it makes any difference at all (I don't think it will), when I shoot TF with someone, I try to keep things to an hour or less.  There have been times when things go a little longer because I like them, they seem to like me and things are going really well.  In those cases, I have shot up to about 3 hours, but I don't ask models to do really crazy, strenuous or awkward things.  Sit here, put your hand that way, look this way, smile just a little bit, etc.

  When the shoot is over, I go through the pictures.  All the ones that aren't focused well, have trees growing out of their head (that I didn't see when shooting), too light, too dark and otherwise garbage get deleted.  Of the ones that are usable (broad definition), I let the model see those.

  I feel that I'm still in the learning stages of things, but just because I think a picture is great doesn't mean the model will agree ... so ... the CD I give them usually has 2 sections.  One with all the pictures I think are worth at least 5 cents and the other with pictures I really like.  Maybe they'll like some of the ones I like, too, but it's not required.

  I promise models 5 pictures but if there ends up being 30 or 50, I'm okay with that.  I don't do a whole bunch of retouching (I like natural looks but understand that not everyone does) so it's not a big deal for me.  If I were a photographer who did a whole bunch of retouching (either myself or someone I hired), I would still let the model see the pictures.  I would let them pick their favorite 5 and retouch those for them (even if I retouched 5 or more different ones for myself).

Apr 01 13 07:55 pm Link