Forums > General Industry > How to scare a Model off from working with you.

Photographer

glumpy

Posts: 516

Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

A.
Ask them when they are available to do a shoot.

Never ceases to amaze me how many times I contact a model on a site such as this or they contact me and we have a discussion where they tell you how much they love your work and are keen to shoot with you,right up till the time you ask when they are free?

After that, Crickets.

I'm about double most models age so I'm wondering if asking " When are you available to shoot?" is some modern day sort of code for " I'm a criminally insane deviot who wants to hack your body into little pieces" and I missed that somewhere along the line.

Apr 14 13 01:55 am Link

Photographer

wendy haigh

Posts: 517

Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Lol. Had this happen to me last week!!  Spoke to model for a week, organised lights, ect day,,,but when it came to pinpointing a time and location, I never heard back!!  Maybe granny died???

Apr 14 13 01:59 am Link

Photographer

Liquid Lace Studios

Posts: 198

Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia

You're not alone with the crickets ... the silence can be deafening at times ...

I'm hearing you !

Apr 14 13 02:02 am Link

Model

Paige Morgan

Posts: 4058

New York, New York, US

Making bitter rants in the forum is also an excellent llama repellent.

The flake llamas don't generally read them, and you'll throughly annoy the reliable ones who make use of them.


This belongs in OT

Apr 14 13 02:03 am Link

Photographer

deletedxxx

Posts: 149

Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

It's not a model problem, it's a unprofessional people problem. I experienced exactly the same thing with photographers when I was a model.

Apr 14 13 02:20 am Link

Model

narie

Posts: 102

Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

landofy wrote:
It's not a model problem, it's a unprofessional people problem. I experienced exactly the same thing with photographers when I was a model.

This... its not exclusively a model problem.

Photographer contacts me, I say that's great, what ideas you got? Sounds good, I'm generally available __ and ____ but with enough notice I could do a day you really want to do. So when are you available?


*silence*

I've even chased a few up like "Hey hope you haven't forgot me after contacting me!"... reply "Oh yeah sorry haha so when are you available?" .... *facepalm*

Point being its to do with the person not really whether they are a model or not.

Apr 14 13 02:40 am Link

Photographer

Nigel Jourdain

Posts: 292

Richland, Washington, US

Review the 'models' portfolio... (They get photos taken so they are models....... Duh)

90% chance their lack response- or pro flake ism, is due to who they've worked with recently. They generalize you with the last guy. He bagged and fought for their time, just as you, but after his wife was finally out shopping and she sat in his garage for 2 hours listening to the 'oh yeah.... thats hot' (heavy breathing) the 'model' is over it. Move on to the next model.

We would be out of business if Sears portrait studio started doing Trade for Tools. All they really want is a couple hours camera time. smile

Apr 14 13 02:54 am Link

Photographer

glumpy

Posts: 516

Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

Paige Morgan wrote:
Making bitter rants in the forum is also an excellent model repellent.

The flake models don't generally read them, and you'll throughly annoy the reliable ones who make use of them.


This belongs in OT

Please, Spare me the white Knight crawling.
If you call what I said a bitter rant, you need to loosen up fella.

This happens and frequently as others have chimed in here. If you want to make out that everyone is perfect, then don't try to shove it down my throat.

Apr 14 13 05:05 am Link

Photographer

glumpy

Posts: 516

Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

narie wrote:

This... its not exclusively a model problem.

Photographer contacts me, I say that's great, what ideas you got? Sounds good, I'm generally available __ and ____ but with enough notice I could do a day you really want to do. So when are you available?


*silence*

I've even chased a few up like "Hey hope you haven't forgot me after contacting me!"... reply "Oh yeah sorry haha so when are you available?" .... *facepalm*

Point being its to do with the person not really whether they are a model or not.

That is an interesting and valid point.
I  can only go on my experience with models as I don't have any trying to arrange shoots with Photographers.  :0)

I have to say I am a bit surprised though. I would have thought the majority of shooters were a lot keener to line up models than the models with getting shoots and the flaking on that side would have been much less due to this.

The thing that gets me with my personal experience being with models is, they spend the time asking questions and will express their enthusiasm and then at the most simple part of the arrangement, they fall over. I understand the no replies to initial contacts but to ask a bunch of questions, even make suggestions and then express enthusiasm, usually more than once, THEN disappear, I just don't get.

Like you, I have sent models reminders and got a reply of them being busy/ offline etc but still very keen but from there they disappear...... mostly.
I have put up casting calls and had these people apply for the shoot maybe a year or 2 later and when I say sorry, I'm looking for someone who will follow through, they get all pissy and demand you recognise they are professional, reliable and otherwise perfect.

I don't bother with asking again. No one I have ever got back to has come through on a shoot so its just wasting more of my time.

It seems such a simple thing we look to do but the complications and frustrations that come from it are incredible.

What can you do but Laugh?

Apr 14 13 05:19 am Link

Photographer

Jhono Bashian

Posts: 2432

Cleveland, Ohio, US

LOL...  how true.  what up with that?  its a hobby for 90%  and the MM girls just are not serous about playing llama. if a better offer comes along they bounce like its a sale at Macy's.

Apr 14 13 05:29 am Link

Model

Rachel-Elise

Posts: 1650

Grand Rapids, Michigan, US

This past week, I had a photographer contact me and ask my rates. I gave him a RIDICULOUSLY reasonable rate. Next thing I knew, he was going on about how "HE doesn't pay models--models pay HIM."

Like someone else already said, it's NOT a "model problem." It's an "unprofessional people" problem.

Apr 14 13 06:32 am Link

Model

Rachel-Elise

Posts: 1650

Grand Rapids, Michigan, US

Paige Morgan wrote:
Making bitter rants in the forum is also an excellent model repellent.

The flake models don't generally read them, and you'll throughly annoy the reliable ones who make use of them.


This belongs in OT

Also this.

Apr 14 13 06:33 am Link

Model

Rachel-Elise

Posts: 1650

Grand Rapids, Michigan, US

glumpy wrote:

Please, Spare me the white Knight crawling.
If you call what I said a bitter rant, you need to loosen up fella.

This happens and frequently as others have chimed in here. If you want to make out that everyone is perfect, then don't try to shove it down my throat.

Oh, and Paige is a female model, and therefore, probably not "white knighting" it... just fyi. smile

Apr 14 13 06:34 am Link

Photographer

BlueMoonPics

Posts: 4441

New York, New York, US

Rachel-Elise  wrote:
This past week, I had a photographer contact me and ask my rates. I gave him a RIDICULOUSLY reasonable rate. Next thing I knew, he was going on about how "HE doesn't pay models--models pay HIM."

Like someone else already said, it's NOT a "model problem." It's an "unprofessional people" problem.

^True.
It's about people not being able to seal the deal.  This goes for models, photographers, etc.  Some "models" have profiles here but are afraid of actually standing in front of a camera and getting their picture taken by some stranger.  Some "photographers" are actually afraid of meeting a pretty girl and directing and taking pictures of them.  There are many more variables to this equation.

All you can do is seek out as many people as you can and hope for the best.
It's just a numbers game.

I'm willing to bet that most of us on the forums are not the problem.

Apr 14 13 06:44 am Link

Photographer

TRPn Pics

Posts: 10431

Andrews, North Carolina, US

Here I thought what scared them off was when your finishing up with logistics and you actually put your phone number down saying contact me the day before the shoot to let me know the shoot is still booked and you'll be there. hmm  How wrong was I. roll

Apr 14 13 06:48 am Link

Model

Rachel-Elise

Posts: 1650

Grand Rapids, Michigan, US

Yes, yes, yes!

Apr 14 13 06:49 am Link

Photographer

WIP

Posts: 15547

Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom

' How to scare a Model off from working with you'

Something like saying 'I'm a fashion photographer' in a bio but the port is 99% nudes.
Things such as this put models of.

Apr 14 13 06:49 am Link

Photographer

WisconsinArt

Posts: 161

Nashotah, Wisconsin, US

Paige Morgan wrote:
Making bitter rants in the forum is also an excellent llama repellent.

The flake llamas don't generally read them, and you'll throughly annoy the reliable ones who make use of them.


This belongs in OT

LOL

It's time to call out the wannabes and send them on their merry way.

Apr 14 13 07:05 am Link

Model

Danielle Reid

Posts: 4389

Little Rock, Arkansas, US

glumpy wrote:
A.
Ask them when they are available to do a shoot.

Never ceases to amaze me how many times I contact a model on a site such as this or they contact me and we have a discussion where they tell you how much they love your work and are keen to shoot with you,right up till the time you ask when they are free?

After that, Crickets.

I'm about double most models age so I'm wondering if asking " When are you available to shoot?" is some modern day sort of code for " I'm a criminally insane deviot who wants to hack your body into little pieces" and I missed that somewhere along the line.

I could say the same for photographers. I was suppose to have 3 shoots this past week...they all seem to have died in some horrible crash. Because they sure are ignoring me...

Apr 14 13 08:32 am Link

Photographer

Ed Woodson Photography

Posts: 2644

Savannah, Georgia, US

How to scare a Model off from working with you.

When she sends you a PM telling you how much she loves your work and really wants to be in your portfolio........


Send her your rates.


That'll usually do the trick.

Apr 14 13 08:35 am Link

Photographer

ontherocks

Posts: 22622

Salem, Oregon, US

i try to close the deal as quickly as possible (which means i usually don't do elaborate pre-shoot planning, at least for untested models). no point spending a lot of time on something that isn't meant to be. once a model has shown herself to be reliable then i'm more open to investing time planning the next shoot.

if i put in a lot of time planning something out then i can do a casting call and find models who are interested in that particular type of shoot.

Apr 14 13 08:38 am Link

Photographer

Andrew Thomas Evans

Posts: 24078

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

glumpy wrote:
Ask them when they are available to do a shoot.

I've got that a bit too, doesn't bother me too much though - if they don't want a shoot with me and my stylists then that is more of a their problem thing rather than mine.

smile




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Apr 14 13 08:38 am Link

Photographer

Andrew Thomas Evans

Posts: 24078

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

c_h_r_i_s wrote:
' How to scare a Model off from working with you'

Something like saying 'I'm a fashion photographer' in a bio but the port is 99% nudes.
Things such as this put models of.

I like it when photographers break down their portfolios in things like: fashion, swim, lingerie, commercial - and they all look pretty much the same. Maybe those all turned into keywords for "bad glamour"?



Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Apr 14 13 08:40 am Link

Photographer

Farenell Photography

Posts: 18135

Albany, New York, US

WBUR's On Point Radio recently discussed the changing nature of how we communicate. So much so that the younger generation barely even checks email, if at all:

http://onpoint.wbur.org/2013/04/03/communication

...& in the future it may be wise to ask what their preferred method of communications is.

Personally I think its the changing nature in how we do communicate (through mobile devices), it enables people being quick to initiate but it falls apart on the follow-through. & this just isn't limited to models either.

Apr 14 13 08:41 am Link

Photographer

William Kious

Posts: 8841

Delphos, Ohio, US

Rachel-Elise  wrote:
It's an "unprofessional people" problem.

This pretty much says it all.

This place has been attracting a lot of people lately who aren't really serious (viewing MM as an extension of their other social media outlets.) They want to see IF they could, so the follow through is less important.

Apr 14 13 08:53 am Link

Model

Lillian Faith

Posts: 296

Atlanta, Georgia, US

Paige Morgan wrote:
Making bitter rants in the forum is also an excellent llama repellent.

The flake llamas don't generally read them, and you'll throughly annoy the reliable ones who make use of them.


This belongs in OT

1

Apr 14 13 08:56 am Link

Model

Lillian Faith

Posts: 296

Atlanta, Georgia, US

glumpy wrote:

Please, Spare me the white Knight crawling.
If you call what I said a bitter rant, you need to loosen up fella.

This happens and frequently as others have chimed in here. If you want to make out that everyone is perfect, then don't try to shove it down my throat.

No need to be rude.

Apr 14 13 08:57 am Link

Photographer

Nick Kunn - ComPhoto

Posts: 79

Calgary, Alberta, Canada

I think sometimes on their part it's about the 'hunt and chase'. The photog loses whe he catches the 'game'.

Apr 14 13 09:00 am Link

Artist/Painter

Two Pears Studio

Posts: 3400

Wilmington, Delaware, US

Sometimes the reality of things is to immense. It takes nothing to compliment your work and discuss future plans... it takes something to actually do those plans.

Frankly if they go crickets... they are saving you the hassle of showing up and it not being good... I rather people come work with me when they see it as an opportunity greater than the hassle of actually doing the work.

Mo Rina said exactly what I was trying to say... right below me. but she said it better and she is way hotter than me!

Apr 14 13 09:04 am Link

Model

MoRina

Posts: 5829

Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US

I am going to assume you are offering TF to these models, although, if you are offering a small amount of pay or just gas money, this still applies.

When you are dealing with hobbyists, you are fighting against all the other things that make demands on that person's time - family, friends, work/school, their other hobbies, etc.  When you contact a model, she looks at your portfolio, and thinks "sure, why not?" and thinks it would be nice to shoot with you.  When you try to pin down a date, that's when the reality of prioritizing all the other things in her life has to start. 

Before the actual commitment has to be made, there's not a huge investment.  When it comes time to make the commitment, that's when she is going to look twice and three times again at your portfolio, maybe check a few references, and figure out does she REALLY REALLY want to shoot with you, because it means giving up something else.  At this point she is looking for a reason NOT to shoot with you.

When you pay a model a reasonable rate, she will prioritize the shoot with you and choose to shoot over getting together with her family or friends, because there is an obvious reason to do so.  Shooting trade is a crap shoot...there is no guarantee a model is going to get anything of value from a trade shoot.

Rather than bitch about this happening over and over, look at your actions and what you can do to overcome it.  Either pay models and/or work harder to get them interested in shooting with you - share your concept with them, tell them why you chose them, specifically, for the concept.  Make them feel like an integral part of the shoot.  Fill your portfolio with shots that flatter the models, so they see what they can gain from trading with you.

Apr 14 13 09:07 am Link

Photographer

Fred Gerhart

Posts: 736

San Antonio, Texas, US

I think the whole problem is the membership both photographers and models. Hopefully a flock of raptors of some kind will sweep in and remove all of the crickets. (Crickets is one prey raptors eat when hunting is poor). Emails left on this system or PM's as people like to call them take days before an answer comes back. One can chalk a part of this up to site performance issues but its only a small part. The rest is just humans not having basic proper communication skills that professionals in other niches have mastered. I call my Doctor they call me back. I call my Attorney they call me back. I email my manager he emails me back.. and so on. All within 2 to 3 hours not 2 to 3 days.

Tags, messages, casting calls, etc. only work if members bother to read them. I am working with a model right now and for the life of me can not get the model to give me a cell phone number and a non model mayhem email that is checked daily.

I always provide my information in first contact so it is expected that if the other party is interested in working with the other they provide the same in first contact.

Hmmm... maybe I am a disguised ax murderer of some kind posing as a photographer.

Apr 14 13 09:11 am Link

Model

Paige Morgan

Posts: 4058

New York, New York, US

glumpy wrote:
Please, Spare me the white Knight crawling.
If you call what I said a bitter rant, you need to loosen up fella.

This happens and frequently as others have chimed in here. If you want to make out that everyone is perfect, then don't try to shove it down my throat.

Perhaps your booking issues are partially caused by both your sparkling, EVER so charming personality and your complete lack of reading comprehension.

Perhaps the words "Female Model" need to be written in 40 point bold crayon?

I'm by no means advocating everyone as being perfect.

However, flaky unprofessional models generally barely bother to log in or check their inboxes...let alone find and read your post in the forum and be shamed enough by it to change their ways.

Instead, you are ranting at the people who do engage with the community enough and care enough about their work to be active members. We're not the source of your problem.

Apr 14 13 09:24 am Link

Photographer

Fred Gerhart

Posts: 736

San Antonio, Texas, US

MoRina wrote:
I am going to assume you are offering TF to these models, although, if you are offering a small amount of pay or just gas money, this still applies.

When you are dealing with hobbyists, you are fighting against all the other things that make demands on that person's time - family, friends, work/school, their other hobbies, etc.  When you contact a model, she looks at your portfolio, and thinks "sure, why not?" and thinks it would be nice to shoot with you.  When you try to pin down a date, that's when the reality of prioritizing all the other things in her life has to start. 

Before the actual commitment has to be made, there's not a huge investment.  When it comes time to make the commitment, that's when she is going to look twice and three times again at your portfolio, maybe check a few references, and figure out does she REALLY REALLY want to shoot with you, because it means giving up something else.  At this point she is looking for a reason NOT to shoot with you.

When you pay a model a reasonable rate, she will prioritize the shoot with you and choose to shoot over getting together with her family or friends, because there is an obvious reason to do so.  Shooting trade is a crap shoot...there is no guarantee a model is going to get anything of value from a trade shoot.
.....

Wrong on so many levels. Paid work goes unanswered as well.... When I was paying models it would take weeks before a shoot gelled.

If one is either a model or photographer they had best get their head screwed on straight and then get on with the work regardless of trade or paid. Trade work for photographers is both important and EXPENSIVE. We too have costs that have to be meet.  The money sword has two edges and cuts both ways...

If a model or photographer books trade and then prioritizes money shoot over the trade shoot they should be banned from this system. A promise is a promise and a person is only as good as their word.

Apr 14 13 09:25 am Link

Photographer

Solas

Posts: 9537

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

never ceases to amaze me when a photographer with next to no experience gets advice from an experienced person in the industry and utterly shoots them down, then cries about why nobody and nothing will work for him.

glumpy wrote:
Please, Spare me the white Knight crawling.
If you call what I said a bitter rant, you need to loosen up fella.

This happens and frequently as others have chimed in here. If you want to make out that everyone is perfect, then don't try to shove it down my throat.

Apr 14 13 09:27 am Link

Model

Paige Morgan

Posts: 4058

New York, New York, US

Karl Johnston wrote:
never ceases to amaze me when a photographer with next to no experience gets advice from an experienced person in the industry and utterly shoots them down, then cries about why nobody and nothing will work for him.

Some people are allergic to logic....on the plus side his personal attack/temper tantrum handily answered his own essential question regarding why he's having trouble getting models to follow through smile

Apr 14 13 09:33 am Link

Photographer

Legeros Photography LLC

Posts: 301

Sterling, Virginia, US

glumpy wrote:
A.
Ask them when they are available to do a shoot.

Never ceases to amaze me how many times I contact a model on a site such as this or they contact me and we have a discussion where they tell you how much they love your work and are keen to shoot with you,right up till the time you ask when they are free?

After that, Crickets.

I'm about double most models age so I'm wondering if asking " When are you available to shoot?" is some modern day sort of code for " I'm a criminally insane deviot who wants to hack your body into little pieces" and I missed that somewhere along the line.

The unfortunate truth is that sh*t happens whether photog or model. IMO, it's always been a part of the "negotiating game" relative to a new shoot with strangers/someone you've never worked with. It either works or it doesn't. If it doesn't...yes...you can try to break it down 6 ways to Sunday as to the drivers for the breakdown....bottom line...it didn't happen...either move on...or continue to stew and get all ate up...throw your hands in the air and run around the room pulling your hair out...the choice is yours...last I checked...there were several thousand models on this site....so if you're batting 0...the problem just might be you....just sayin...

Apr 14 13 09:49 am Link

Photographer

Farenell Photography

Posts: 18135

Albany, New York, US

MoRina wrote:
When you pay a model a reasonable rate, she will prioritize the shoot with you and choose to shoot over getting together with her family or friends, because there is an obvious reason to do so.

I guess maybe our experiences are different but I haven't remotely found that to be the case.

If a person is going to bail on a shoot or never setting a shoot date when prompted, it'll happen regardless of what the pay rate is.

Apr 14 13 09:51 am Link

Photographer

Tom Linkens

Posts: 6418

Lititz, Pennsylvania, US

Rachel-Elise  wrote:

Oh, and Paige is a female model, and therefore, probably not "white knighting" it... just fyi. smile

You sure about that last part? tongue

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrwm5bVxfG1qeqx7ko1_500.jpg

Apr 14 13 09:54 am Link

Photographer

JQuest

Posts: 1457

Syracuse, New York, US

I've found I have the most success when booking local models to set a date as soon as possible after they reply. Strike while the iron is hot so to speak.

I have been guilty myself on occasion of letting a shoot slip away because it wasn't planned soon enough and something else shiny came along.

As for booking traveling models, I book them as far in advance as possible, probably 75% of the models I shoot now are travelers, they're committed and when they show up in your town they really do have pretty much nothing else to do except shoot. smile

Works for me.

Apr 14 13 10:07 am Link

Photographer

Will Snizek Photography

Posts: 1387

Beckley, West Virginia, US

Paige Morgan wrote:
Making bitter rants in the forum is also an excellent model repellent.

The flake models don't generally read them, and you'll throughly annoy the reliable ones who make use of them.


This belongs in OT

Being a forum bully doesn't do much for someone's image either!  Definitely another form of repellant.

Apr 14 13 10:14 am Link