Forums > General Industry > Was I wrong for doing this?

Model

Elizabeta Rosandic

Posts: 953

Santa Fe, New Mexico, US

The original post was too long for me to stand to look at :p. I've cut it down. Still a bit long, but I appreciate those who read it.

This morning I had an all-day shoot scheduled with a photographer for what he said was a clothed editorial-type shoot. In his original message to me he said that there would be hair/MUA provided, the pay would be $20/hr, and to bring as many looks as I could.

When I arrived there was no hair/MUA. When I asked him about it he said "oh I don't usually bring in hair/MUA's on Mondays." Because I thought there'd be one I arrived with no make-up on or in my bag and nothing for my hair. We decided to just wing it. It was then that he also mentioned that he had another model coming at 10:30 (our shoot was scheduled for 9), which I thought was weird since he had told me that our shoot would go until 2pm in his original message.

About 20 minutes into the shoot he started to ask for nudes. As someone who shoots nudes regularly this is fine with me, but not for $20 an hour (and before you start with the "stripper rates"- I feel that I can shoot 1,000 times better when I'm nude. Of course I'm going to charge more for something I feel I can do particularly well. I wouldn't be a practical business person if I didn't.)

When I stopped him and told him that I charge more for nudes he said that he wanted to shoot nudes because he didn't like any of the clothes that I had brought. I told him that he should have told me what kind of clothes he wanted me to bring and I would have acted accordingly, otherwise I was going to pick out clothes based on what I saw in his portfolio and what others have given me good feedback on. That's when he told me that he needed "high fashion" stuff, which I can't afford anyway and was not going to buy for a shoot that probably wouldn't cover the expense of the outfits.

As a general rule, I do not like surprises when I'm working. If a person I'm working with says "the shoot will be like this, this, and this" and it isn't, I find that really annoying. However, according to him I should have asked what he wanted me to bring instead of just coming to my own conclusions, that it was my fault that the shoot was a failure, saying that my clothes weren't up to par and my posing/look basically sucked. Furthermore, he cited examples of models paying *him* a lot of money to be shot nude to discredit my preferential rate for nudes.

Am I at fault here? Or was I in the right in walking out?

*Edit* Thank you everyone for your replies. I should add that in the 3 years I've been modeling, primarily booking shoots via MM, this is the first time something like this (aside from the one truly horrible experience I had) has happened to me. Overall, I'd say that's a pretty good track record. Good job, MM! smile

Also, this thankfully didn't wreck my day. At most it prevented me from sleeping in and doing some morning yoga. So I'm not here to try bitch and moan to you all about how much my life sucks, but rather to get some opinions that I could learn from which I have! Thank you! smile

*Edit #2* A lot of you seem to feel that I was in the right, which is very reassuring for me since I was having serious doubts based on what the photographer in question said to me. I'm wondering now, is what the photographer did CAM worthy? Or should I just ignore him and give him a bad reference from here on out?

Apr 22 13 01:01 pm Link

Photographer

J O H N A L L A N

Posts: 11360

San Pedro, California, US

You do seem to have a lot of drama surrounding your llamaing.

Apr 22 13 01:04 pm Link

Model

Elizabeta Rosandic

Posts: 953

Santa Fe, New Mexico, US

John Allan wrote:
You do seem to have a lot of drama surrounding your modeling.

That's not an answer.

Apr 22 13 01:06 pm Link

Clothing Designer

Chain Reaction

Posts: 536

Grand Rapids, Michigan, US

Sounds like bait and switch. I don't blame you for walking.

Apr 22 13 01:12 pm Link

Photographer

Mortonovich

Posts: 5850

San Diego, California, US

Assuming the facts are as stated, the guy sounds like a dipshit.

Apr 22 13 01:12 pm Link

Photographer

John Horwitz

Posts: 2920

Raleigh, North Carolina, US

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:

That's not an answer.

the answer is yes - it was your fault

Apr 22 13 01:12 pm Link

Photographer

J O H N A L L A N

Posts: 11360

San Pedro, California, US

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:

That's not an answer.

It sort of is.

Apr 22 13 01:15 pm Link

Photographer

Cherrystone

Posts: 37171

Columbus, Ohio, US

Your only fault was not walking immediately.

"I don't get MUA/hair on Mondays" is a crock of shit.

Apr 22 13 01:16 pm Link

Photographer

GeorgeMann

Posts: 1148

Orange, California, US

Cherrystone wrote:
Your only fault was not walking immediately.

+100%

Apr 22 13 01:17 pm Link

Photographer

Orca Bay Images

Posts: 32526

Poulsbo, Washington, US

I don't blame you a bit for walking out. Bait-and-switch both on the MUA and the clothed-editorial morphing into full nude.

I'm not sure how either of those issues are your fault.

Apr 22 13 01:18 pm Link

Photographer

Orca Bay Images

Posts: 32526

Poulsbo, Washington, US

Cherrystone wrote:
Your only fault was not walking immediately.

"I don't get MUA/hair on Mondays" is a crock of shit.

QFT.

Apr 22 13 01:18 pm Link

Photographer

ForeverFotos

Posts: 6646

Indianapolis, Indiana, US

If you agreed to do fashion-editorial before the shoot, and the photographer started asking for nudes with no prior warning, then you were perfectly within your rights to walk. This is especially true since the mua that was promised was nowhere in sight. My only concern is that you felt you needed to start an internet forum about the whole thing. That's really more drama than this deserves.

Apr 22 13 01:18 pm Link

Photographer

robert b mitchell

Posts: 1863

Surrey, British Columbia, Canada

You should have gotten out sooner. That was your only fault. Don't listen to the trolls here!

Apr 22 13 01:18 pm Link

Photographer

Orca Bay Images

Posts: 32526

Poulsbo, Washington, US

John Horwitz wrote:

the answer is yes - it was your fault

How?

Apr 22 13 01:18 pm Link

Model

Elizabeta Rosandic

Posts: 953

Santa Fe, New Mexico, US

Thank you for your replies.

I'm wondering, do you guys think it would be wise to, in the future, bring my own make-up and hair stuff to a shoot even if there is a MUA supposedly coming just in case?

Apr 22 13 01:20 pm Link

Model

JessieLeigh

Posts: 2070

Las Vegas, Nevada, US

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Am I at fault here? Or was I in the right in walking out?

You would have been right if you walked out as soon as you realized there was not someone there for hair and makeup.
You agreed to the shoot based on certain things, and once the photographer failed to uphold their end of the deal you were under no obligation to uphold your end

Apr 22 13 01:21 pm Link

Model

Lynn Elizabeth

Posts: 1336

Coral Springs, Florida, US

He's in the wrong! I would have left too.

He said he would supply a MUA/hair stylist... he didn't.
He said the shoot was about fashion ... it wasn't.
He told you the shoot would be from 9-2... it wasn't.

He sounds very unprofessional and I feel bad that you had to travel so far to deal with someone like this.

Next time get references.

*edit* I always bring hair and makeup items to a shoot. MUA or not! (you never know if the MUA forgets something on accident)

Apr 22 13 01:21 pm Link

Photographer

Cherrystone

Posts: 37171

Columbus, Ohio, US

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Thank you for your replies.

I'm wondering, do you guys think it would be wise to, in the future, bring my own make-up and hair stuff to a shoot even if there is a MUA supposedly coming just in case?

You should always bring your own. Even without the BS you encountered, shit does truly happens sometimes.

Apr 22 13 01:23 pm Link

Photographer

K E E L I N G

Posts: 39863

Peoria, Illinois, US

John Horwitz wrote:

the answer is yes - it was your fault

Do what?  What chu talkin bout Willis?

Apr 22 13 01:23 pm Link

Model

Elizabeta Rosandic

Posts: 953

Santa Fe, New Mexico, US

ForeverFotos wrote:
My only concern is that you felt you needed to start an internet forum about the whole thing. That's really more drama than this deserves.

Personally, I think "internet" and "drama" together is an oxymoron. But anyway...

To clarify, the reason why I asked about this was because the photographer was pretty convinced that this whole thing was my fault. Since it's a modeling issue, MM seems like an appropriate place to ask if it was and find out why.

Apr 22 13 01:23 pm Link

Photographer

Julian W I L D E

Posts: 1829

Portland, Oregon, US

You nailed that one.  And I'm a photographer.  ;-)  Don't give it another second of your time.

PS. I'd say "Better luck next time."

But instead I'll say "more clarity next time."

-JULIAN

Apr 22 13 01:24 pm Link

Photographer

logic11

Posts: 10

Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

I have had shoots without hair/mua present, but I have always made sure the model knows this. I have never (and I mean never) told a model to work nude without prior arrangement, and I would not do so. It's simply not okay. If you provided the clothes without getting any prior info about what to bring, just to bring a bunch of different looks, you should have walked. You don't have to bring makeup to a shoot that's supposed to have an MUA, and you should simply walk out if that happens again.

Apr 22 13 01:25 pm Link

Artist/Painter

sdgillis

Posts: 2459

Portland, Oregon, US

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Thank you for your replies.

I'm wondering, do you guys think it would be wise to, in the future, bring my own make-up and hair stuff to a shoot even if there is a MUA supposedly coming just in case?

not because in case MUA doesn't make it, that again sounds suspect.  But I would carry a kit that allows you to do three things:  Adjust your hair a couple ways, makeup for a natural look, makeup that can be used to reduce shine.

Apr 22 13 01:27 pm Link

Photographer

DougBPhoto

Posts: 39106

Portland, Oregon, US

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Thank you for your replies.

I'm wondering, do you guys think it would be wise to, in the future, bring my own make-up and hair stuff to a shoot even if there is a MUA supposedly coming just in case?

1)  You were right in leaving

B) Yes, that would be wise when possible, you never know what may happen, so it is always good to be prepared.

Apr 22 13 01:27 pm Link

Model

Elizabeta Rosandic

Posts: 953

Santa Fe, New Mexico, US

Lynn Elizabeth wrote:
Next time get references.

Sadly, he had good references. But at least he didn't have good references and then turn out to be a sex offender or something- that would be seriously http://assets.modelmayhem.com/images/smilies/scary.png. This is just worthy of being pissed off about.

I should add that in the 3 years I've been modeling, primarily booking shoots via MM, this is the first time something like this (aside from the one truly horrible experience I had) has happened to me. Overall, I'd say that's a pretty good track record. Good job, MM! smile

Apr 22 13 01:28 pm Link

Photographer

Top Gun Digital

Posts: 1336

Las Vegas, Nevada, US

As a photographer, I always tell the model what wardrobe to bring before the shoot.  Since we are typically shooting my ideas how would she know what to bring unless I tell her.

The excuses the photographer gave you are bullshit.  I think he just wanted to shoot nudes and was hoping you would do it for $20/hr once you arrived at the location.

Apr 22 13 01:29 pm Link

Photographer

J O H N A L L A N

Posts: 11360

San Pedro, California, US

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Thank you for your replies.

I'm wondering, do you guys think it would be wise to, in the future, bring my own make-up and hair stuff to a shoot even if there is a MUA supposedly coming just in case?

No, you shouldn't drag along a makeup artist for "just in case". That's a waste of the artist's time at the very least. You should however, as a model, be skilled enough in basic makeup for photography, that you could handle a simple natural look, as well as a simple more fashion oriented look. Things happen.

Apr 22 13 01:29 pm Link

Photographer

Blue Box Photography

Posts: 1170

Montville, New Jersey, US

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Personally, I think "internet" and "drama" together is an oxymoron. But anyway...

Oxymoron...?

Apr 22 13 01:32 pm Link

Model

Elizabeta Rosandic

Posts: 953

Santa Fe, New Mexico, US

John Allan wrote:
No, you shouldn't drag along a makeup artist for "just in case". That's a waste of the artist's time at the very least. You should however, as a model, be skilled enough in basic makeup for photography, that you could handle a simple natural look, as well as a simple more fashion oriented look. Things happen.

Ahem. I didn't say "bring a MUA", I said "bring make-up". Big difference. Also, I am perfectly capable of doing my make-up seeing how I've lived the last 21 years as a girl, but if a MUA is supposed to be present, I won't necessarily be prepared to do my own extensive make-up looks. Please do me a favor and read my posts before you badly troll them. Kthanks.

Apr 22 13 01:33 pm Link

Model

D A N I

Posts: 4615

Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US

I think you already knew the answer to this before posting.

Apr 22 13 01:37 pm Link

Model

Elizabeta Rosandic

Posts: 953

Santa Fe, New Mexico, US

Blue Box Photography wrote:

Oxymoron...?

Yes. Real life has merit to be drama. The internet is not real life. The internet is the internet.

Or maybe I'm just old fashioned. Who knows.

Apr 22 13 01:43 pm Link

Photographer

Blue Box Photography

Posts: 1170

Montville, New Jersey, US

Blue Box Photography wrote:
Oxymoron...?

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Yes. Real life has merit to be drama. The internet is not real life. The internet is the internet.

Or maybe I'm just old fashioned. Who knows.

I see. To me, the internet is nothing but drama. smile

Apr 22 13 01:46 pm Link

Photographer

Will Snizek Photography

Posts: 1387

Beckley, West Virginia, US

If I were you, I would have walked out since he breached the agreement, so I don't see anything wrong on your part.  You could have walked out before the shooting even started and that would have been fine.

Apr 22 13 01:48 pm Link

Model

Elizabeta Rosandic

Posts: 953

Santa Fe, New Mexico, US

Blue Box Photography wrote:
I see. To me, the internet is nothing but drama. smile

Ha! I can certainly see where you're coming from there.

Whenever I see a really angry piece of writing on the internet though I just picture some yucky person leaning over their computer like a hunchback while grunting and typing reeeeeeal hard. It's hard to take internet drama seriously when you have that mental image in your head big_smile

Apr 22 13 01:52 pm Link

Photographer

Cherrystone

Posts: 37171

Columbus, Ohio, US

John Allan wrote:

No, you shouldn't drag along a makeup artist for "just in case". That's a waste of the artist's time at the very least. You should however, as a model, be skilled enough in basic makeup for photography, that you could handle a simple natural look, as well as a simple more fashion oriented look. Things happen.

Read much? hmm

Apr 22 13 01:54 pm Link

Model

Laura UnBound

Posts: 27573

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Thank you for your replies.

I'm wondering, do you guys think it would be wise to, in the future, bring my own make-up and hair stuff to a shoot even if there is a MUA supposedly coming just in case?

yes. Even if he had booked an MUA, she could have cancelled/flaked and you would have been in the same situation

Even when they say you dont need to bring ANYTHING, still bring

-simple heels (plain black pumps or strappy heeled sandals)
-makeup
-hair stuff
-black lingerie

50% of the time youre gonna wind up using stuff they said you didnt need to bring.

Apr 22 13 01:55 pm Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 22835

Portland, Oregon, US

So many thoughts!  Okay, in random order...

...  First, let's acknowledge that we are hearing only one side of the story.  We have no reason to believe or disbelieve that OP, but the story is credible.  Let's assume that it is.

...  "Bait & switch" and general disorganization are, to me, less than professional behavior.  That can be annoying.

...  Seems like he immediately started changing the agreement the moment you arrived (no hair/MUA) and continued to make changes (asking for nudes). 

...  I think you would have been justified leaving when these significant changes were attempted.

...  However, one of my credos is...
          It is exceedingly easy to escalate hostilities, and
          It is exceedingly difficult to de-escalate hostilities.


...  Another credo of mine...
          Assume that every photographer you meet will talk with every other
          photographer in the world.


...  Thus, how you extract yourself is very important.  You don't want to punish the guy.  You don't want to educate the guy.  You just want to take care of business.

Apr 22 13 02:03 pm Link

Photographer

Edge of the Moon

Posts: 431

New York, New York, US

I think you were trying to give him the benefit of the doubt at first and that's why you probably didn't leave right away.  He was just trying to see how far he could go by pushing things into nudity and then trying to make you feel bad.  It's a tactic used by insecure people in bullying others.

Apr 22 13 02:04 pm Link

Model

Elizabeta Rosandic

Posts: 953

Santa Fe, New Mexico, US

Looknsee Photography wrote:
...  Thus, how you extract yourself is very important.  You don't want to punish the guy.  You don't want to educate the guy.  You just want to take care of business.

Thank you, this sounds like very good advice. I'll certainly keep this in mind.

Apr 22 13 02:08 pm Link

Model

Evie Wolfe

Posts: 1201

Nottingham, England, United Kingdom

I think you were in the right. The guy was at best completely lax in observing his part of the deal and expecting you to be happy with it, or at worst, actively lying to you to get a discounted rate on your nude work.

As a side note, I always bring hair and makeup equipment to every shoot, even if a HS/MUA is booked. I've been in situations before where the MUA has been unable to show and the shoot had to be re-arranged.
I also make sure I ask (via email or pm so I have it in writing) what a photographer wants me to bring clothing-wise. I had a couple of guys try and skip out on payment last year because I didn't bring an outfit they wanted to shoot (they had made no mention of wanting it) and only recieved payment because I could pull up the list they had sent me on my email account in front of the studio owner.

Sorry you had a sucky time sad you weren't at fault, so just chalk it up and move on if you can xx

Apr 22 13 02:12 pm Link