Forums > Hair, Makeup & Styling > Help pls - for salon workers

Model

Sophia Be

Posts: 6354

Portland, Oregon, US

So I got hired at a salon. I was pretty happy until we discussed pay and schedule, but now I am not sure what to think

Basically, I will be on call 43 hrs a week. I don't have to be in the salon the whole time, but it is recommended. If I get called in, I have to get there asap (around 15 mins).

Here's the part I'm struggling with, it only pays while I am doing a service. A small hourly wage (just over min) plus a very small commission

I've been licensed for a long time, but have never worked in a salon (I worked in the industry doing other things) so I am good at some things and new at others.

Is this how salons usually work? Does this sound normal?

I can't decide if it's a great opportunity to hone my skills (learn new things) and make money, or if I would be better off waitressing or looking for work at a salon that pays an hourly wage (does that exist?)

Help, I need your input please smile

Apr 28 13 10:34 pm Link

Photographer

KungPaoChic

Posts: 3084

West Palm Beach, Florida, US

That sounds like total BS to me. I don't know if it's legal but the economy is soft and I see so many businesses doing shady and downright illegal things it's not even funny.

Maybe take it until something better comes along? Do they at least guarantee you a minimum amount of hours?

As I recall you can't require hours of an independent contractor so I don't know how they can expect you to be on call 46 hours a week.

And they can not require that you be on premises if you are not getting paid. Are they paying you like an independent contractor? Do you have to pay your own social security taxes?

IMO I would maybe take it and look for something better but I think what they are doing is probably not legal.

Apr 28 13 11:46 pm Link

Photographer

Compass Rose Studios

Posts: 15979

Portland, Oregon, US

I know NOTHING about this industry. 

But based on my knowledge of the corporate world, which is not small, I would say if I were asked to give 43 hours of my time to someone and for all that I might make nothing for that but at best I'd make peanuts, I'd tell them they were high. 

Sales people often work on commission only.  That's not so surprising.  But in return the employer must provide the opportunity to make MORE than minimum wage with that time. 

So two assumptions:

1) you'll make far greater than minimum wage once the pipeline is full
2) that there's enough demand, and the solution is valuable enough to fill that pipeline.

That's the game. 

Now there are considerations like training and ramp up time, which depending on industry can be many, many months.  But there's also typically added compensation during that time. 

So the question you really need to be asking is...does this job give you a real opportunity to eventually make FAR more than minimum wage within a reasonable time frame?

Apr 29 13 09:53 am Link

Makeup Artist

MelodyW Hair N Makeup

Posts: 80

Los Angeles, California, US

Hmmmmmm.....I would question that deal.  If you don't have a clientele and are confident in your abilities I would seek out a salon that pays on commission . They will promote you, feed you walk in clients and  help educate you. 
If you are "on call" you are at the mercy of the front desk to give you clients, and competing with stylists who are at the salon ready to work. Face time at the salon will get you clients.

If you are a little less confident....seek out the best salon In your area, then seek out the best stylist there. See if you can get a job assisting them or a stylist they reccomend . You usually get paid by the hour and sometimes get tipped by the client. Usually after a while you can eventually get your own station.

Another option is to start out at a corporate salon like Carlton.they expect you to sell a lot of product and they don't pay great, but you learn a lot about the industry and business in general .
Good luck on your career ! Hair styling can lead to all sorts of great adventures!

Apr 29 13 10:35 am Link

Model

Sophia Be

Posts: 6354

Portland, Oregon, US

MelodyW Hair N Makeup wrote:
Hmmmmmm.....I would question that deal.  If you don't have a clientele and are confident in your abilities I would seek out a salon that pays on commission . They will promote you, feed you walk in clients and  help educate you. 
If you are "on call" you are at the mercy of the front desk to give you clients, and competing with stylists who are at the salon ready to work. Face time at the salon will get you clients.

If you are a little less confident....seek out the best salon In your area, then seek out the best stylist there. See if you can get a job assisting them or a stylist they reccomend . You usually get paid by the hour and sometimes get tipped by the client. Usually after a while you can eventually get your own station.

Another option is to start out at a corporate salon like Carlton.they expect you to sell a lot of product and they don't pay great, but you learn a lot about the industry and business in general .
Good luck on your career ! Hair styling can lead to all sorts of great adventures!

Thanks for the input.

I don't think I'm gonna do it. The more I think about it, the more it seems like a scam.

I'm an licensed aesthetician, so I'm already trained in facials and waxing, there is no apprenticing, like in hair. (I am at an expert level in makeup that's what I've been doing for years)

Under their model, I'd have to build my own clientele, they aren't busy currently.

Commission only would be great! if it payed a decent commission (say 30-60%), but they are paying just over min wage (plus a small commission) and only for the time they allot for a service, not the whole time I am there and scheduled.

So let's say they allot 15 minutes for a brow wax. I'd make about $2.50 for doing the service plus about $1.40 in commission.

When I do the math, even if I kept myself busy my whole shift, it wouldn't come out to much. If I don't stay slammed, I will be making well under min wage, and no benefits (health or vacation etc).

I kinda feel like if I'm gonna put that much energy into building a clientele from scratch, a business (because that's essentially what it is) I should make more money and have more freedom, right?

They sprung a lot of other stuff on me too after the fact (like having to pay for any "training" they give me if I leave within a year).

This can't be normal?

Apr 29 13 12:57 pm Link

Makeup Artist

Carmen Make up and Hair

Posts: 321

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

That's pretty common practice where I'm from. Most stylists want to be on commission - their good work will create repeat clientele and thus more commission.  But everything is really according to region, and also what works for you.

Apr 29 13 01:52 pm Link

Makeup Artist

MelodyW Hair N Makeup

Posts: 80

Los Angeles, California, US

Apr 29 13 03:19 pm Link

Makeup Artist

MelodyW Hair N Makeup

Posts: 80

Los Angeles, California, US

Oooooo  smile in that case I would check out the spas in the higher end hotels in your area. If you can get on staff (even part time,) at their spa they can offer your makeup skills as well for weddings and such. They also train their staff, and clients are marketed through the hotel, so you don't have to spend as much time promoting yourself.

My sister in law did this and it worked out really well for her. Good luck!

Apr 29 13 03:33 pm Link

guide forum

Makeup Artist

TheMakeupMan

Posts: 3759

Los Angeles, California, US

MelodyW Hair N Makeup wrote:

sounds like they are totally taking advantage


reasons to work in a salon like that ,,,,,, to build a clientel for  6 months then leave

no other reason , youd make more at supercuts and get bennifits if you worked full time

When I started in the salon biz it use to be 60 for you 40 for the salon , now its gone to about 50 50 in most i know of , if you have a decent clientel , rent ....... iif not , id suggest working at a place like carlton hair which has tons of walkins at real salon prices and great training , worked all the way to mentor status and then worked freelance in beverly hills with the  clientel I picked up there

have a plan

Apr 29 13 03:37 pm Link

Model

Sophia Be

Posts: 6354

Portland, Oregon, US

TheMakeupMan wrote:
sounds like they are totally taking advantage


reasons to work in a salon like that ,,,,,, to build a clientel for  6 months then leave

no other reason , youd make more at supercuts and get bennifits if you worked full time

When I started in the salon biz it use to be 60 for you 40 for the salon , now its gone to about 50 50 in most i know of , if you have a decent clientel , rent ....... iif not , id suggest working at a place like carlton hair which has tons of walkins at real salon prices and great training , worked all the way to mentor status and then worked freelance in beverly hills with the  clientel I picked up there

have a plan

See that was my thought, until they gave me a contract saying I couldn't take any clientele I built, that if I did makeup outside the salon, I had to get permission and give them a cut (keep in mind, I already have a MUA business I've been doing for years) and that if I left the salon, I'd be charged "training fees" which where pretty steep IMO (and from what I could tell, some training sessions where actually youtube videos)

I'd be cool if it was a 50% commission on services, that would make me very happy! I could make a living wage on that, but it's a flat rate of barely over min, just for the time they allot to preform the service plus a very small commission.

I also wouldn't mind making an hourly wage of min wage or just over min plus the commission rate they offer, but for all hours scheduled, not just the time frame in which I'd be doing a service (with all other hours spent in the salon cleaning etc, unpaid).

I wonder what our equivalent to Carlton hair is? Hmm

Apr 29 13 05:06 pm Link

Model

Sophia Be

Posts: 6354

Portland, Oregon, US

MelodyW Hair N Makeup wrote:
Oooooo  smile in that case I would check out the spas in the higher end hotels in your area. If you can get on staff (even part time,) at their spa they can offer your makeup skills as well for weddings and such. They also train their staff, and clients are marketed through the hotel, so you don't have to spend as much time promoting yourself.

My sister in law did this and it worked out really well for her. Good luck!

That's a really good suggestion, thanks for that smile

Apr 29 13 05:12 pm Link

Model

Sophia Be

Posts: 6354

Portland, Oregon, US

Carmen Rachel MUA wrote:
That's pretty common practice where I'm from. Most stylists want to be on commission - their good work will create repeat clientele and thus more commission.  But everything is really according to region, and also what works for you.

What's the commission % there though?

My problem isn't that it's commission only, but that the commission is not much more then working one hour at min wage and there is no pay all other times.

Apr 29 13 05:17 pm Link

Model

Sophia Be

Posts: 6354

Portland, Oregon, US

KungPaoChic wrote:
That sounds like total BS to me. I don't know if it's legal but the economy is soft and I see so many businesses doing shady and downright illegal things it's not even funny.

Maybe take it until something better comes along? Do they at least guarantee you a minimum amount of hours?

As I recall you can't require hours of an independent contractor so I don't know how they can expect you to be on call 46 hours a week.

And they can not require that you be on premises if you are not getting paid. Are they paying you like an independent contractor? Do you have to pay your own social security taxes?

IMO I would maybe take it and look for something better but I think what they are doing is probably not legal.

I was given a schedule of 43 hours a week. I'd have to come in everyday for cleaning, then I could wonder off, but I'd have to be able to get back to the salon within 15 minutes.

They recommend you stay at the salon during your scheduled shifts in case there is a walk in, but as I understand it, there are other estis there that would take priority of the walk ins. But that I would be given overflow.

And no, it's on payroll

Everyone has been saying it doesn't sound legal, but I think it is.

Apr 29 13 05:22 pm Link

Photographer

Chicchowmein

Posts: 14486

Palm Beach, Florida, US

Do they pay your social security taxes?

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Bus … mployee%3F

I am trying to figure out if they are paying you like an independent contractor or a salaried employee

If they are not paying you an hourly 9 except for when you work on clients I can't see how they can require hours.

Apr 29 13 09:30 pm Link

Photographer

Chicchowmein

Posts: 14486

Palm Beach, Florida, US

Sophia Be wrote:

See that was my thought, until they gave me a contract saying I couldn't take any clientele I built, that if I did makeup outside the salon, I had to get permission and give them a cut (keep in mind, I already have a MUA business I've been doing for years) and that if I left the salon, I'd be charged "training fees" which where pretty steep IMO (and from what I could tell, some training sessions where actually youtube videos)

I'd be cool if it was a 50% commission on services, that would make me very happy! I could make a living wage on that, but it's a flat rate of barely over min, just for the time they allot to preform the service plus a very small commission.

I also wouldn't mind making an hourly wage of min wage or just over min plus the commission rate they offer, but for all hours scheduled, not just the time frame in which I'd be doing a service (with all other hours spent in the salon cleaning etc, unpaid).

I wonder what our equivalent to Carlton hair is? Hmm

Total BS.

I question whether a lot of things they are doing are legal.

I would look elsewhere.

Apr 29 13 09:34 pm Link

Photographer

Chicchowmein

Posts: 14486

Palm Beach, Florida, US

dp

Apr 29 13 09:34 pm Link

Photographer

Demeter Photography

Posts: 550

Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Sophia Be wrote:

Thanks for the input.

I don't think I'm gonna do it. The more I think about it, the more it seems like a scam.

I'm an licensed aesthetician, so I'm already trained in facials and waxing, there is no apprenticing, like in hair. (I am at an expert level in makeup that's what I've been doing for years)

Under their model, I'd have to build my own clientele, they aren't busy currently.

Commission only would be great! if it payed a decent commission (say 30-60%), but they are paying just over min wage (plus a small commission) and only for the time they allot for a service, not the whole time I am there and scheduled.

So let's say they allot 15 minutes for a brow wax. I'd make about $2.50 for doing the service plus about $1.40 in commission.

When I do the math, even if I kept myself busy my whole shift, it wouldn't come out to much. If I don't stay slammed, I will be making well under min wage, and no benefits (health or vacation etc).

I kinda feel like if I'm gonna put that much energy into building a clientele from scratch, a business (because that's essentially what it is) I should make more money and have more freedom, right?

They sprung a lot of other stuff on me too after the fact (like having to pay for any "training" they give me if I leave within a year).

This can't be normal?

You are certainly worth more than such an offer, so declining it is the right thing to do.  Its a crazy business model they run, and I'm not clear why anyone would sign up for that.  You'd literally make more money collecting bottles (not sure if you get money back when you bring bottles back in the US.)

Apr 29 13 09:37 pm Link

Photographer

Chicchowmein

Posts: 14486

Palm Beach, Florida, US

Just a side note, not really related to your specific situation but I went in for an interview at a local print shop that I was more than qualified for

On the application they asked your marital status, spouse's occupation, if you had children their ages and how many, your personal medical information, and all kinds of illegal questions.

I couldn't help but point it out.

They said what part of the application is illegal ( um like the whole front except for the part that asked my name and address).

I did report them but I don't think the state did anything.

Apr 29 13 09:40 pm Link

Model

Sophia Be

Posts: 6354

Portland, Oregon, US

Chicchowmein wrote:
Do they pay your social security taxes?

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Bus … mployee%3F

I am trying to figure out if they are paying you like an independent contractor or a salaried employee

If they are not paying you an hourly 9 except for when you work on clients I can't see how they can require hours.

Yes they would be paying ss taxes, it's not 1099, I'd be on payroll, I filled out a W-4 yesterday before they dropped today's bomb about having to pay them if I quit

I've heard of salons do commission only, but usually it pays way more, like 40-60%.

Apr 29 13 09:59 pm Link

Model

Sophia Be

Posts: 6354

Portland, Oregon, US

Chicchowmein wrote:
Just a side note, not really related to your specific situation but I went in for an interview at a local print shop that I was more than qualified for

On the application they asked your marital status, spouse's occupation, if you had children their ages and how many, your personal medical information, and all kinds of illegal questions.

I couldn't help but point it out.

They said what part of the application is illegal ( um like the whole front except for the part that asked my name and address).

I did report them but I don't think the state did anything.

Now that is fucked up

Apr 29 13 10:00 pm Link

Model

Sophia Be

Posts: 6354

Portland, Oregon, US

Demeter Photography wrote:

You are certainly worth more than such an offer, so declining it is the right thing to do.  Its a crazy business model they run, and I'm not clear why anyone would sign up for that.  You'd literally make more money collecting bottles (not sure if you get money back when you bring bottles back in the US.)

My thought was that I would get very advanced training (things they don't teach in beauty school like last extensions) and be able to build a clientele, but since they don't allow those things, yeah, I'm not sure why anyone would think it was a good deal.

My last real job (ie not working for myself), I made significantly more per hour plus commission, but it was at Clinique, not a salon.

I may continue to seek out salon jobs, but this has left a bad taste in my mouth for sure.

Apr 29 13 10:06 pm Link

guide forum

Makeup Artist

TheMakeupMan

Posts: 3759

Los Angeles, California, US

TheMakeupMan wrote:
sounds like they are totally taking advantage


reasons to work in a salon like that ,,,,,, to build a clientel for  6 months then leave

no other reason , youd make more at supercuts and get bennifits if you worked full time

When I started in the salon biz it use to be 60 for you 40 for the salon , now its gone to about 50 50 in most i know of , if you have a decent clientel , rent ....... iif not , id suggest working at a place like carlton hair which has tons of walkins at real salon prices and great training , worked all the way to mentor status and then worked freelance in beverly hills with the  clientel I picked up there

have a plan

they all say that lol  , the truth is people will go to who they like and a salon that cant force a client  to stay with them  lol ,,,,,,,, that's just silly
Now I would never overtly move them because in front of the owners or management out of respect , but hell yeah if Im moving salons id let them know where if they wanted to come ....ive worked in salons for almost 20 years ,its been over a decade since ive worked in one ......... but its the same story over and over and this is nothing new ,

THATS THE ONLY REASON ANY ONE WOULD WORK IN A SHOP LIKE THAT LOL
they don't have carolton in Portland sad

Apr 30 13 09:34 pm Link

Model

Sophia Be

Posts: 6354

Portland, Oregon, US

TheMakeupMan wrote:

they all say that lol  , the truth is people will go to who they like and a salon that cant force a client  to stay with them  lol ,,,,,,,, that's just silly
Now I would never overtly move them because in front of the owners or management out of respect , but hell yeah if Im moving salons id let them know where if they wanted to come ....ive worked in salons for almost 20 years ,its been over a decade since ive worked in one ......... but its the same story over and over and this is nothing new ,

THATS THE ONLY REASON ANY ONE WOULD WORK IN A SHOP LIKE THAT LOL
they don't have carolton in Portland sad

I turned them down.

They must be outta their minds. I feel like I dodged a bullet with that place.

May 01 13 06:52 pm Link

Model

Magic Forests

Posts: 530

New York, New York, US

Thank the muffin gods. It sounded as if they were trying to take advantage of you big time. sad

May 01 13 09:08 pm Link

Photographer

the lonely photographer

Posts: 1888

Beverly Hills, California, US

Chicchowmein wrote:
Do they pay your social security taxes?

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Bus … mployee%3F

I am trying to figure out if they are paying you like an independent contractor or a salaried employee

If they are not paying you an hourly 9 except for when you work on clients I can't see how they can require hours.

its called staffing. The salon "hired"  the independent contractor to be available during those normal business hours. The salon business is not a 9-5 business,  they are at the mercy of the clients, when a client comes in 2-3 times a week, you don't piss them off  because there are plenty od hairstylists, manicurists , esthetiticians out there. If you leave at 6:00   and the client wants to come in at 6:30    do you say no? Independent contractors forget it is their own business, the owner of the salon can stay and service the customer if  the stylist feels she/he is being taken advantage of.

When you are paying rent/utilities insurance, taxes, all that. you take every customer you can.  It's not a luxury to dismiss business For every customer you dissed   someone made some money off the client.

May 01 13 09:54 pm Link

Photographer

Chicchowmein

Posts: 14486

Palm Beach, Florida, US

the lonely photographer wrote:

its called staffing. The salon "hired"  the independent contractor to be available during those normal business hours. The salon business is not a 9-5 business,  they are at the mercy of the clients, when a client comes in 2-3 times a week, you don't piss them off  because there are plenty od hairstylists, manicurists , esthetiticians out there. If you leave at 6:00   and the client wants to come in at 6:30    do you say no? Independent contractors forget it is their own business, the owner of the salon can stay and service the customer if  the stylist feels she/he is being taken advantage of.

When you are paying rent/utilities insurance, taxes, all that. you take every customer you can.  It's not a luxury to dismiss business For every customer you dissed   someone made some money off the client.

I don't know what you are talking about but I am telling you that it is against the law -- federal law to require hours of an independent contractor -- it is just one of the ways that some businesses try to get around paying social security taxes among other things.

If you want people to be available during certain hours than you need to pay them an hourly.  You don't just get to pay them when they work. That is BS. There are strict definitions of what an independent contractor is and what qualifies as one even though shady businesses try to get around them quite frequently.

I understand paying rent, utilities, insurances and taxes but if you want to have employees and you want them to be available certain hours then you need to pay them accordingly.

I know what staffing is and I know what taking advantage of people is too.

Anyways I believe that Sophie has decided to pass on the job.

May 01 13 10:56 pm Link

Photographer

the lonely photographer

Posts: 1888

Beverly Hills, California, US

Chicchowmein wrote:
I don't know what you are talking about but I am telling you that it is against the law -- federal law to require hours of an independent contractor -- it is just one of the ways that some businesses try to get around paying social security taxes among other things.

If you want people to be available during certain hours than you need to pay them an hourly.  You don't just get to pay them when they work. That is BS. There are strict definitions of what an independent contractor is and what qualifies as one even though shady businesses try to get around them quite frequently.

I understand paying rent, utilities, insurances and taxes but if you want to have employees and you want them to be available certain hours then you need to pay them accordingly.

I know what staffing is and I know what taking advantage of people is too.

Anyways I believe that Sophie has decided to pass on the job.

You don't get it.  Nobody knows when a client will walk in at whatever time, if the independent contractor is not available, then whoevers there will take the client. Independent contractors are expected to stay for at least the regular operating hours. If they don't have clients  then this is what they do  sit around till a client walks in.  If they have clients and don't need the salon to feed them clients  then they can pay rent to the salon  and leave whenever they want or not come in if they don't want.  The newbies have to stick around and wait their turn for the next client walking in, if they are not there  when that happens  ... too bad.  The ones that stay get the business  simple as that.. you if you feel the stylists are being taken advantage of, then they should pay rent,   they can come and go as they please as the salon don't care if they get business or not.Most top tier salons "hire" indys to service overflows and extra clients the owners can't do.  The owners have their own clients to serve, and do them all. It would be easier to not deal with "indy's"  and take all the business for themselves... besides the indys  pay their own taxes,  I f they get tips   its up to them to report it.  Simple math  the more people they do   they more they make.

May 01 13 11:10 pm Link

guide forum

Makeup Artist

Mary

Posts: 7168

Coronado, California, US

If I understand this...you would be an employee... I am not sure about Oregon but in Calif you can not be on the premises available to work if you are not being paid at least minimum wage for every minute you are there...You can not work a shift that is under 4 hours and you have to have 10 minute breaks (one in every 4 hour shift)  You can not work over 5 hours without a 30 minute lunch... the rules go on and on.. They also have to pay workman's comp insurance for you .... Oregon is similar in a lot of ways to California and so I assume they have the same laws or similar.

As an independent contractor (In CA, not sure about Oregon)  they can not require you to be anywhere at any set time and call you a contractor...they also have to pay workman's comp for you.   

Just from what you have posted I can tell you that there are laws being broken either way and they probably have no clue, most small business owners don't know this stuff until they are caught and fined into bankruptcy for past errors they had no clue they were even making.  I wouldn't personally take on a job like this...I don't see how you can get ahead and getting into to business relationship with someone this clueless can't end well.  It's already a business relationship based on mistrust of each other or so it sounds.

May 02 13 12:56 am Link

Photographer

the lonely photographer

Posts: 1888

Beverly Hills, California, US

Mary wrote:
If I understand this...you would be an employee... I am not sure about Oregon but in Calif you can not be on the premises available to work if you are not being paid at least minimum wage for every minute you are there...You can not work a shift that is under 4 hours and you have to have 10 minute breaks (one in every 4 hour shift)  You can not work over 5 hours without a 30 minute lunch... the rules go on and on.. They also have to pay workman's comp insurance for you .... Oregon is similar in a lot of ways to California and so I assume they have the same laws or similar.

As an independent contractor (In CA, not sure about Oregon)  they can not require you to be anywhere at any set time and call you a contractor...they also have to pay workman's comp for you.   

Just from what you have posted I can tell you that there are laws being broken either way and they probably have no clue, most small business owners don't know this stuff until they are caught and fined into bankruptcy for past errors they had no clue they were even making.  I wouldn't personally take on a job like this...I don't see how you can get ahead and getting into to business relationship with someone this clueless can't end well.  It's already a business relationship based on mistrust of each other or so it sounds.

This is an addendum to last nights post,
an independent contractor technically is a self employed person responsible for his own debts, liabilities. A lot of people get the idea   such as Mary above believe that contractors are free to come and go as they please, which is entirely true.
The problem is the work environment dictates a set period of time in which work, if available must be done. The contractor agrees with the salon owners to be available during the normal business hours. The shop only makes money if there are clients willing to come in and pay. The owners usually have their own clientele to support them, the new stylsits usually do not, and depend solely on walkins and clients the salon gives them, and if they are not there when a client comes in  they are shit out of luck,  the client goes to whoever is there ready willing and able to serve the clients.

The question arises whether they are entitled to compensation during their time in the salon.  Yes if they are employees , like cleaning , housekeeping, reception.  The stylists are seperate business people responsible fo rtheir own taxes,insurance,medical.  Just like the owners.
The only difference is the "independent contractors" benefit from the venue, these use of the facilities, the good will, The FFE (fixtures, furnishings, equipment) The salon supplys laundry, assistants to help, backbar, booking appointments, shampoo and color , among other things, and the tips they recieve have nothing to do with the owner. Most salons make an agreement with stylists  that they will get paid x  for a specific service they perform on a salon client. Some salons will retain a stylist as an employee  paying by the hour, most salons will not hire because of litigation, it  becomes dreadfully difficult to terminate a bad employee because of labor laws, the employee can lie about wrongful termination, unemployment, disability claims, hostile work environment  all kinds of issues to shake down the salon. The system is setup to do that for all kinds of fraud and abuse.  I love the part where Mary says they have to pay you if you are on premises. A stupid rule written by a non business person,

no salon owner in there right mind will pay a stylist to sit on their ass, talking the phone, eating, playing games on their laptop,  looking for sales on their mobile devices, go shopping trash talking,, all kinds of shit.
If anybody pushes for compensation of any kind, then they REALLY become independent, and will pay rent to the salon, as a renter. They have their own phone number, the salon does not take messages, nor sets appointments,  they get their own supplies, towels, they hire their own assistants,  they clean their own workstations, they shampoo their own clients. The salon has nothing to do with their operation, they collect their own fees process their own credit cards.  Best of all   they don't have to be there if they don't get compensated.

Because of labor expense as there is insurance, workmans comp. taxes and more taxes. They will not allow an employee to run overtime because of expense. An independent contractor can take as many clients as they can  during a busy week  and make good money Strange how people see being available for work at normal business hours could be called mandatory, most business people want to be in a situation where they can make money, some people will think they are entitled and think they are doing you a favor by being there.




independent contractors carry their own insurance, this has been discussed with lawyers specializing in labor laws, I give you that an independent contractor cannot be forced to to be on location, but then if they are not there, when work is to be done, they don't get the job. its obvious you don't have an inkling of how this works. Almost every licensed cosmetologist earns much more on commission depending on skill level than a employee. If you're not there when a customer or a walk in comes in   you get nothing. The stylist that shows up from open to close will get the bulk of the business, the stylist that does not show up at open  does not get preference over someone that shows up. So the bottom line, if you don't show up you won't get any clients. whats so difficult to understand? these stylists earn at least 50% of each service charged, some services run into  $1000,s  because extensions, color matching hairpieces, weaving,cutting styling, blowdry. And the tips they get.
They don't complain about the long hours, they eat when they can, not because some idiot bureaucrat tells them to. When you got a big job that has to be done, the money comes first.  These girls are about business, the customer is not going to wait for you to finish lunch,  that atitude will make the customer go elsewhere.  Its the reality of the business. These girls will make as much as they can no limit to their earnings, if they want to take a customer after hours...  its double the charge   or a house call is double, why does the house get part of the service fee? because the service call originated thru the salon,  how many stylists will turn down a $300/hr job? The good ones will make 6 figures  easily . I know some on call  to fly out all expenses  paid  to New York, including 4-5 star Hotel  and be back 24 hours later.. . easy 5-10 grand.. The lame ones will bitch and moan about hours  they have to work,  its always been that way. You earn your reputation. why don't they make any money ..? simple  they suck. The do sucks, the makeup is awful,
the manicure is flawed, the haircut is uneven, the color didn't come out right...
the mediocre ones go work at a hair factory for an hourly wage,    the good ones will move up and open their own shops,  and you know what?  They deserve it.
final comment regarding labor laws in California. Most jobs in California are leaving, you can rationalize and makeup all stories that is not true.  Every major corporation has moved its corporate HQ out of California, go google it and see for your yourself, Carl Karcher enterprises last year has pulled out of California and is opening at least 200 new stores all in Texas. Why? because of onerous workplace rules, regulations, excessive taxes, environmental  issues.
That means those JOBS won't be here in California.
If the job creators are burdened with so much redtape, why would they bother?

May 02 13 02:29 am Link

Photographer

Chicchowmein

Posts: 14486

Palm Beach, Florida, US

the lonely photographer wrote:

This is an addendum to last nights post,
an independent contractor technically is a self employed person responsible for his own debts, liabilities. A lot of people get the idea   such as Mary above believe that contractors are free to come and go as they please, which is entirely true.
The problem is the work environment dictates a set period of time in which work, if available must be done. The contractor agrees with the salon owners to be available during the normal business hours. The shop only makes money if there are clients willing to come in and pay. The owners usually have their own clientele to support them, the new stylsits usually do not, and depend solely on walkins and clients the salon gives them, and if they are not there when a client comes in  they are shit out of luck,  the client goes to whoever is there ready willing and able to serve the clients.

The question arises whether they are entitled to compensation during their time in the salon.  Yes if they are employees , like cleaning , housekeeping, reception.  The stylists are seperate business people responsible fo rtheir own taxes,insurance,medical.  Just like the owners.
The only difference is the "independent contractors" benefit from the venue, these use of the facilities, the good will, The FFE (fixtures, furnishings, equipment) The salon supplys laundry, assistants to help, backbar, booking appointments, shampoo and color , among other things, and the tips they recieve have nothing to do with the owner. Most salons make an agreement with stylists  that they will get paid x  for a specific service they perform on a salon client. Some salons will retain a stylist as an employee  paying by the hour, most salons will not hire because of litigation, it  becomes dreadfully difficult to terminate a bad employee because of labor laws, the employee can lie about wrongful termination, unemployment, disability claims, hostile work environment  all kinds of issues to shake down the salon. The system is setup to do that for all kinds of fraud and abuse.  I love the part where Mary says they have to pay you if you are on premises. A stupid rule written by a non business person,

no salon owner in there right mind will pay a stylist to sit on their ass, talking the phone, eating, playing games on their laptop,  looking for sales on their mobile devices, go shopping trash talking,, all kinds of shit.
If anybody pushes for compensation of any kind, then they REALLY become independent, and will pay rent to the salon, as a renter. They have their own phone number, the salon does not take messages, nor sets appointments,  they get their own supplies, towels, they hire their own assistants,  they clean their own workstations, they shampoo their own clients. The salon has nothing to do with their operation, they collect their own fees process their own credit cards.  Best of all   they don't have to be there if they don't get compensated.

Because of labor expense as there is insurance, workmans comp. taxes and more taxes. They will not allow an employee to run overtime because of expense. An independent contractor can take as many clients as they can  during a busy week  and make good money Strange how people see being available for work at normal business hours could be called mandatory, most business people want to be in a situation where they can make money, some people will think they are entitled and think they are doing you a favor by being there.




independent contractors carry their own insurance, this has been discussed with lawyers specializing in labor laws, I give you that an independent contractor cannot be forced to to be on location, but then if they are not there, when work is to be done, they don't get the job. its obvious you don't have an inkling of how this works. Almost every licensed cosmetologist earns much more on commission depending on skill level than a employee. If you're not there when a customer or a walk in comes in   you get nothing. The stylist that shows up from open to close will get the bulk of the business, the stylist that does not show up at open  does not get preference over someone that shows up. So the bottom line, if you don't show up you won't get any clients. whats so difficult to understand? these stylists earn at least 50% of each service charged, some services run into  $1000,s  because extensions, color matching hairpieces, weaving,cutting styling, blowdry. And the tips they get.
They don't complain about the long hours, they eat when they can, not because some idiot bureaucrat tells them to. When you got a big job that has to be done, the money comes first.  These girls are about business, the customer is not going to wait for you to finish lunch,  that atitude will make the customer go elsewhere.  Its the reality of the business. These girls will make as much as they can no limit to their earnings, if they want to take a customer after hours...  its double the charge   or a house call is double, why does the house get part of the service fee? because the service call originated thru the salon,  how many stylists will turn down a $300/hr job? The good ones will make 6 figures  easily . I know some on call  to fly out all expenses  paid  to New York, including 4-5 star Hotel  and be back 24 hours later.. . easy 5-10 grand.. The lame ones will bitch and moan about hours  they have to work,  its always been that way. You earn your reputation. why don't they make any money ..? simple  they suck. The do sucks, the makeup is awful,
the manicure is flawed, the haircut is uneven, the color didn't come out right...
the mediocre ones go work at a hair factory for an hourly wage,    the good ones will move up and open their own shops,  and you know what?  They deserve it.
final comment regarding labor laws in California. Most jobs in California are leaving, you can rationalize and makeup all stories that is not true.  Every major corporation has moved its corporate HQ out of California, go google it and see for your yourself, Carl Karcher enterprises last year has pulled out of California and is opening at least 200 new stores all in Texas. Why? because of onerous workplace rules, regulations, excessive taxes, environmental  issues.
That means those JOBS won't be here in California.
If the job creators are burdened with so much redtape, why would they bother?

yes of course you are right.

No one else around here would possibly have any experience with being an independent contractor or the laws regarding independent contractors outside of CA.

May 02 13 08:34 pm Link

Model

Sophia Be

Posts: 6354

Portland, Oregon, US

the lonely photographer wrote:
these stylists earn at least 50% of each service charged, some services run into  $1000,s

I think you are misunderstanding. I would be fine if it where a 50% only commission on service job. My issue is that it's an hourly wage job, but you only get the wage while doing a service. IE if I get a brow wax, I would only be paid the hourly fee while doing the wax plus a very small commission (around $1.40, and this is a very expensive salon).



I would be an employee with a set schedule and set of daily cleaning duties, not an independent contractor making a nice 40-60% commission per service.

I don't mind working for a small hourly wage plus a small commission 43 hrs a week, and I don't mind working on commission only (40-60%) 43 hours a week. My issue is they can't have it both ways.

Plus there where trying to charge for any training I might receive. And training is the ONLY reason I'd work under those conditions. Basically I would take the training in lieu of  fair pay.

In any case, I didn't take it. If I'm gonna work that hard to build a clientele, I'm gonna damn sure make more then $11 for my trouble. I will just free lance, it makes more sense.

Or get a job at a salon paying min wage/tips/commission, or a makeup counter making $12-15 an hour plus commission

I wanted to know if that's the norm these days, and I received a resounding "NO"

May 02 13 08:39 pm Link

Photographer

Chicchowmein

Posts: 14486

Palm Beach, Florida, US

Sophia Be wrote:

I think you are misunderstanding. I would be fine if it where a 50% only commission on service job. My issue is that it's an hourly wage job, but you only get the wage while doing a service. IE if I get a brow wax, I would only be paid the hourly fee while doing the wax plus a very small commission (around $1.40, and this is a very expensive salon).



I would be an employee with a set schedule and set of daily cleaning duties, not an independent contractor making a nice 40-60% commission per service.

I don't mind working for a small hourly wage plus a small commission 43 hrs a week, and I don't mind working on commission only (40-60%) 43 hours a week. My issue is they can't have it both ways.

Plus there where trying to charge for any training I might receive. And training is the ONLY reason I'd work under those conditions. Basically I would take the training in lieu of  fair pay.

In any case, I didn't take it. If I'm gonna work that hard to build a clientele, I'm gonna damn sure make more then $11 for my trouble. I will just free lance, it makes more sense.

Or get a job at a salon paying min wage/tips/commission, or a makeup counter making $12-15 an hour plus commission

I wanted to know if that's the norm these days, and I received a resounding "NO"

As a client I would never want to patronize a salon that treated their staff like that.

IMO that is totally exploitative and if it's not illegal it ought to be.

May 02 13 08:49 pm Link

Model

Sophia Be

Posts: 6354

Portland, Oregon, US

Chicchowmein wrote:

As a client I would never want to patronize a salon that treated their staff like that.

IMO that is totally exploitative and if it's not illegal it ought to be.

That's exactly what my girlfriend said.

And really, I get facials, massages and other services myself and feel the same way.

May 02 13 08:55 pm Link

Photographer

Chicchowmein

Posts: 14486

Palm Beach, Florida, US

Sophia Be wrote:

That's exactly what my girlfriend said.

And really, I get facials, massages and other services myself and feel the same way.

You seem like a sharp cookie -- I think you will find something better.

it sucks to be taken advantage of

May 02 13 09:11 pm Link

Model

Sophia Be

Posts: 6354

Portland, Oregon, US

Chicchowmein wrote:

You seem like a sharp cookie -- I think you will find something better.

it sucks to be taken advantage of

smile

May 02 13 10:34 pm Link

Photographer

the lonely photographer

Posts: 1888

Beverly Hills, California, US

Sophia Be wrote:
I think you are misunderstanding. I would be fine if it where a 50% only commission on service job. My issue is that it's an hourly wage job, but you only get the wage while doing a service. IE if I get a brow wax, I would only be paid the hourly fee while doing the wax plus a very small commission (around $1.40, and this is a very expensive salon).



I would be an employee with a set schedule and set of daily cleaning duties, not an independent contractor making a nice 40-60% commission per service.

I don't mind working for a small hourly wage plus a small commission 43 hrs a week, and I don't mind working on commission only (40-60%) 43 hours a week. My issue is they can't have it both ways.

Plus there where trying to charge for any training I might receive. And training is the ONLY reason I'd work under those conditions. Basically I would take the training in lieu of  fair pay.

In any case, I didn't take it. If I'm gonna work that hard to build a clientele, I'm gonna damn sure make more then $11 for my trouble. I will just free lance, it makes more sense.

Or get a job at a salon paying min wage/tips/commission, or a makeup counter making $12-15 an hour plus commission

I wanted to know if that's the norm these days, and I received a resounding "NO"

a lot of MUA's in CA are freelancers, you need a license to do manicures and  do hair in a salon, in fact a lot of suppliers will not sell products  unless you have a license. The problem is too many of the same people looking for the same jobs, there is cutthroat competition for the few customers in certain markets. The problem is acute in parts of southern California, especially Vietnamese nail salons were virtually doing manicures for 8 dollars, theres no way a top end salon can compete with that. unfortunately to bring the price that low they had to recycle files, sponges whatever to make a profit. This created a environmental health issue throughout the industry where the regulatory board had to do inspections,  a lot of them closed down or were closed down.  The prices are a bit higher now for most areas,  though  problems occasionally arise. I don't know your level of expertise, or how competent you are, are even if you are a licensed estetician, you don't have to work anywhere you're not happy with. One suggestion is to look into being a corporate rep for a high end skin care company, you can demonstrate products to salons and spas, some companies may have company cars or an auto allowance expense acccount, and benefits. Get to know the area reps for the high end spas and salons.  MOst of them know each other. The top end here is called La prarie, Sonya Dakkar , Babor  and a few which elude me at the moment.  I have a great relationship with the area rep for Schwarzkop and Goldwell  here. We got a free trip to Cabo, though I sent one of the girls instead

May 02 13 11:39 pm Link

Photographer

the lonely photographer

Posts: 1888

Beverly Hills, California, US

Chicchowmein wrote:

yes of course you are right.

No one else around here would possibly have any experience with being an independent contractor or the laws regarding independent contractors outside of CA.

your sarcasm is duly noted

May 03 13 12:09 am Link

guide forum

Makeup Artist

Mary

Posts: 7168

Coronado, California, US

the lonely photographer wrote:
This is an addendum to last nights post,
an independent contractor technically is a self employed person responsible for his own debts, liabilities. A lot of people get the idea   such as Mary above believe that contractors are free to come and go as they please, which is entirely true.
The problem is the work environment dictates a set period of time in which work, if available must be done. The contractor agrees with the salon owners to be available during the normal business hours. The shop only makes money if there are clients willing to come in and pay. The owners usually have their own clientele to support them, the new stylsits usually do not, and depend solely on walkins and clients the salon gives them, and if they are not there when a client comes in  they are shit out of luck,  the client goes to whoever is there ready willing and able to serve the clients.

The question arises whether they are entitled to compensation during their time in the salon.  Yes if they are employees , like cleaning , housekeeping, reception.  The stylists are seperate business people responsible fo rtheir own taxes,insurance,medical.  Just like the owners.
The only difference is the "independent contractors" benefit from the venue, these use of the facilities, the good will, The FFE (fixtures, furnishings, equipment) The salon supplys laundry, assistants to help, backbar, booking appointments, shampoo and color , among other things, and the tips they recieve have nothing to do with the owner. Most salons make an agreement with stylists  that they will get paid x  for a specific service they perform on a salon client. Some salons will retain a stylist as an employee  paying by the hour, most salons will not hire because of litigation, it  becomes dreadfully difficult to terminate a bad employee because of labor laws, the employee can lie about wrongful termination, unemployment, disability claims, hostile work environment  all kinds of issues to shake down the salon. The system is setup to do that for all kinds of fraud and abuse.  I love the part where Mary says they have to pay you if you are on premises. A stupid rule written by a non business person,

no salon owner in there right mind will pay a stylist to sit on their ass, talking the phone, eating, playing games on their laptop,  looking for sales on their mobile devices, go shopping trash talking,, all kinds of shit.
If anybody pushes for compensation of any kind, then they REALLY become independent, and will pay rent to the salon, as a renter. They have their own phone number, the salon does not take messages, nor sets appointments,  they get their own supplies, towels, they hire their own assistants,  they clean their own workstations, they shampoo their own clients. The salon has nothing to do with their operation, they collect their own fees process their own credit cards.  Best of all   they don't have to be there if they don't get compensated.

Because of labor expense as there is insurance, workmans comp. taxes and more taxes. They will not allow an employee to run overtime because of expense. An independent contractor can take as many clients as they can  during a busy week  and make good money Strange how people see being available for work at normal business hours could be called mandatory, most business people want to be in a situation where they can make money, some people will think they are entitled and think they are doing you a favor by being there.




independent contractors carry their own insurance, this has been discussed with lawyers specializing in labor laws, I give you that an independent contractor cannot be forced to to be on location, but then if they are not there, when work is to be done, they don't get the job. its obvious you don't have an inkling of how this works. Almost every licensed cosmetologist earns much more on commission depending on skill level than a employee. If you're not there when a customer or a walk in comes in   you get nothing. The stylist that shows up from open to close will get the bulk of the business, the stylist that does not show up at open  does not get preference over someone that shows up. So the bottom line, if you don't show up you won't get any clients. whats so difficult to understand? these stylists earn at least 50% of each service charged, some services run into  $1000,s  because extensions, color matching hairpieces, weaving,cutting styling, blowdry. And the tips they get.
They don't complain about the long hours, they eat when they can, not because some idiot bureaucrat tells them to. When you got a big job that has to be done, the money comes first.  These girls are about business, the customer is not going to wait for you to finish lunch,  that atitude will make the customer go elsewhere.  Its the reality of the business. These girls will make as much as they can no limit to their earnings, if they want to take a customer after hours...  its double the charge   or a house call is double, why does the house get part of the service fee? because the service call originated thru the salon,  how many stylists will turn down a $300/hr job? The good ones will make 6 figures  easily . I know some on call  to fly out all expenses  paid  to New York, including 4-5 star Hotel  and be back 24 hours later.. . easy 5-10 grand.. The lame ones will bitch and moan about hours  they have to work,  its always been that way. You earn your reputation. why don't they make any money ..? simple  they suck. The do sucks, the makeup is awful,
the manicure is flawed, the haircut is uneven, the color didn't come out right...
the mediocre ones go work at a hair factory for an hourly wage,    the good ones will move up and open their own shops,  and you know what?  They deserve it.
final comment regarding labor laws in California. Most jobs in California are leaving, you can rationalize and makeup all stories that is not true.  Every major corporation has moved its corporate HQ out of California, go google it and see for your yourself, Carl Karcher enterprises last year has pulled out of California and is opening at least 200 new stores all in Texas. Why? because of onerous workplace rules, regulations, excessive taxes, environmental  issues.
That means those JOBS won't be here in California.
If the job creators are burdened with so much redtape, why would they bother?

LOL!   Did you just say this?  "its obvious you don't have an inkling of how this works."

I've been an independent contractor for over 30 years in the freelance makeup business... I also own a makeup store that employes 13 people currently (most full time)   Please rethink that statement. I employ people that are paid to understand the laws of my State and we follow all of them.   I will agree that being in Ca is hard and I am also looking at moving my company out of the State but I know very well how the regulations work here... I have to, it's my job as an employer here.  I have an accountant, a lawyer and a book-keeper... I also use the services of ADP...they all keep me updated on current laws and regulations..between these 4 resources I understand every law as it's implimented

May 03 13 02:30 am Link

Photographer

the lonely photographer

Posts: 1888

Beverly Hills, California, US

Mary wrote:
LOL!   Did you just say this?  "its obvious you don't have an inkling of how this works."

I've been an independent contractor for over 30 years in the freelance makeup business... I also own a makeup store that employes 13 people currently (most full time)   Please rethink that statement. I employ people that are paid to understand the laws of my State and we follow all of them.   I will agree that being in Ca is hard and I am also looking at moving my company out of the State but I know very well how the regulations work here... I have to, it's my job as an employer here.  I have an accountant, a lawyer and a book-keeper... I also use the services of ADP...they all keep me updated on current laws and regulations..between these 4 resources I understand every law as it's implimented

really  ? I'm impressed....Those  sound like your employees,
if you need them around to perform services. The situation I'm talking about are licensed cosmetologists, that work under a salon as an independent contractor, or a renter.
in order to get walkins working in the  salon,  they have to be present in the salon when that happens. Thats just common sense. No salon will pay them to sit around and do nothing. If they want not show up and go to the beach, thats  fine,  customer walks in... the IC not there   boom   the customer goes to the next in line for walk in.  Not rocket science. No salon I know of in my area does it any differently. You don't seem to understand,  just being there in the salon does  not mean they re actually working doing any services. So no salon will pay for standing around. Nobody complains under this arrangement there are hundreds of salons in my area alone,   either you rent, go commission,  or go work in a hair factory where they work your ass off. How we work it, we have salon staff that has been together for as long as the salon has been opened, we cater to red carpet and celebrity events, including the Oscars, every new hairstylist wants to be in this situation, the workplace rules  you religiously espouse, do not address this situation, almost every professional organization, from architects, builders, doctors  have gone to this type of arrangement.  The system was setup to collect revenue and taxes trying to make everybody an employee so that payroll taxes and social security and workers comp, disability and other yet to be sprung on businesses so they can fund a broken down system riddled with fraud and waste..  our indys do their own taxes  write off their own expenses, much like a separate business. the minute they get paid as W2 they have to pay SSI,  and all the other stuff because of acccounting.
SSI is 15% of your gross earned income, self employed people pay all of it,  employees pay half of it, the other half the employer pays it.Technically. The 1099 people will pay the full 15%, one way around it is an S corp, but that comes with a yearly taxfiling of at  least $800  and you can't contribute to an IRA to offset gross income because of the corporation status, unless you file as an individual, then its personal 1040 you want to bet the gross pay to the employee the ssi is calculated into the wage scale?  All of the IC's would rather have all their money to use now. and its all legal.The whole system is fucked up I have attorneys, CPA's handling all this costing me shitloads of money luckily I can write this off. All this is designed to burden business and suck taxes every which way they can.Like every tax penalty and fee they come up with its always sold as a common good premise ,  like "its for the children" , it's for the environment,...redlight cameras save lives....bullshit

May 03 13 09:12 am Link

Model

Sophia Be

Posts: 6354

Portland, Oregon, US

the lonely photographer wrote:
a lot of MUA's in CA are freelancers, you need a license to do manicures and  do hair in a salon, in fact a lot of suppliers will not sell products  unless you have a license. The problem is too many of the same people looking for the same jobs, there is cutthroat competition for the few customers in certain markets. The problem is acute in parts of southern California, especially Vietnamese nail salons were virtually doing manicures for 8 dollars, theres no way a top end salon can compete with that. unfortunately to bring the price that low they had to recycle files, sponges whatever to make a profit. This created a environmental health issue throughout the industry where the regulatory board had to do inspections,  a lot of them closed down or were closed down.  The prices are a bit higher now for most areas,  though  problems occasionally arise. I don't know your level of expertise, or how competent you are, are even if you are a licensed estetician, you don't have to work anywhere you're not happy with. One suggestion is to look into being a corporate rep for a high end skin care company, you can demonstrate products to salons and spas, some companies may have company cars or an auto allowance expense acccount, and benefits. Get to know the area reps for the high end spas and salons.  MOst of them know each other. The top end here is called La prarie, Sonya Dakkar , Babor  and a few which elude me at the moment.  I have a great relationship with the area rep for Schwarzkop and Goldwell  here. We got a free trip to Cabo, though I sent one of the girls instead

It's obvious you didn't read the whole thread. Hear is the TLDR

I'm not in CA

I am licensed as an esthetician. I am not a nail tech, or a hair dresser. (Most nail techs here work commission only, 50% on services FYI)

No one is arguing that 40-50% commission only is unfair, we all agree that is fair payment

I was asking other salon employees if it is different in the current economy for estheticians (if the pay was fair)

I am already a freelance MUA and have been for years

The job was paying a wage barely over min, but only for 15 min here, 1 hour there, not 40%  commission

I would be an employee, not a contractor

The job was asking for the bulk of my payment when doing makeup out side the salon with my pre existing makeup clientele

They where asking for me to pay them for "training" (some of the training was watching youtube vids)

I would have had daily cleaning duties in the salon, which I would not be paid for

All of this was not disclosed up front, only after I was "hired"

Oh and I have shopped at Mary's store for years, just FYI, she knows what she's talking about, she does own a store. it may not be a salon, but every business has expenses (taxes, insurance, building rent etc)

I've been self employed for years, as a llama, as a MUA as a performer, as a studio owner. I am well aware that it costs money to run a business.

And for crying out loud, if you are going to argue in this thread, please use paragraphs. it makes it easier to communicate smile

Edited to add. It seems like you have a bone to pick about the unfairness of being a business owner and your personal exsperience as a salon owner in CA. I get that, and agree, it's hard out there, for all small busniesses. But that is not what this thread was about

May 03 13 01:46 pm Link