Forums > Model Colloquy > TFP or Paid?

Photographer

J O H N A L L A N

Posts: 10331

Santa Ana, California, US

Marissa St Claire wrote:
Speaking as a model I would always prefer paid work however if you are planning on paying the model and not giving them any images I think that is a lame move on your part. Just because you pay a model doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to get at least an image or two, you're going to be editing them anyways and it only takes a minute to send them off in an e-mail.

Ha ha ha - Ahh no.

May 02 13 10:12 am Link

Model

JadeDRed

Posts: 5461

London, England, United Kingdom

Art of the nude wrote:

If a model is paid full market rates and still expects images, the work isn't worth anything TO THAT MODEL.

Trust me on this, if the photos are worth nothing to us we don't ask for them. Now they may not be worth enough to pay a decent fee for, or they may just not have the money, but if the model asks for images they must have some worth, even if it is small, to her.

Frankly, if i was willing to pay a small fee for an image i might not offer one at all, because sometimes it seems a price too low is more insulting than offering nothing. Photographers seem to sometimes value their work at a much higher rate to models than it seems realistically they could actually have and i would be hesitant to offer a single payment for an image in case i got a 'Do you know how much my equipment costs???! I had to pay the studio, and your fee, how dare you expect to use the image if you aren't going to cover all my costs as well as my fee for the shoot that i set up and got everything i wanted from, you models always wanting something for nothing' answer.

May 02 13 01:57 pm Link

Model

Retiredmodel

Posts: 7884

Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom

JadeDRed wrote:

Trust me on this, if the photos are worth nothing to us we don't ask for them. Now they may not be worth enough to pay a decent fee for, or they may just not have the money, but if the model asks for images they must have some worth, even if it is small, to her.

Frankly, if i was willing to pay a small fee for an image i might not offer one at all, because sometimes it seems a price too low is more insulting than offering nothing. Photographers seem to sometimes value their work at a much higher rate to models than it seems realistically they could actually have and i would be hesitant to offer a single payment for an image in case i got a 'Do you know how much my equipment costs???! I had to pay the studio, and your fee, how dare you expect to use the image if you aren't going to cover all my costs as well as my fee for the shoot that i set up and got everything i wanted from, you models always wanting something for nothing' answer.

yes I have had this as well just asking to use one in my port when I have been paid. It is like some want to gain back what they have had to pay for the model because a third party who has paid them handsomely has also paid the model. So I have been quoted silly figures because of a little bit of resentment they haven't chosen the model it appears to me. And that would be fine if you hadn't found out they've got £25 for a great photo in the local rag....

May 02 13 02:04 pm Link

Model

Retiredmodel

Posts: 7884

Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom

Randall_Oelerich wrote:

Eliza C wrote:
My point is that I would rather flip burgers for $10 an hour (min wage here) for ten hours a day than work for four hours a day three times a month. The latter wouldn't pay my rent.

I think if you look at my postings you will see I was referring to the modeling sessions at $100/4hrs as extra work beyond flipping burgers, not at all meant as rent paying full time employment; rather a photoshoot(s) on a morning of a model's day off from their day job. I certainly would not expect a model working for me to have that be her main job to pay rent at all. Just extra cash on the side and a chance to learn posing, modeling.

Eliza C wrote:
And modelling if one is doing it right isn't frollicking it's hard work; and beaches here are flipping freezing smile

Totally agree. But to many college students flipping burgers, modeling on the beach on a nice summer day probably is a *lot* less work than flipping burgers, and for 3x/hr the pay they would get flipping burgers.


Again, I am not saying *you* are flipping burgers, or MM models here are doing burger flipping, but I am saying there are local college students flipping burgers or serving coffee for $8/hr. I am just saying they (not you) might relish the thought of earning $25/hr to do some modeling on a local beach. In fact I know this as I have done this with local college students already, very attractive local college students.  Pro models who know how to pose-- I have no problem forking over the money, but I am not going to pay the bigger bucks for inexperienced models who I will spend considerable time guiding posing, who still might look like a deer in the headlights when being photographed (had a model like that once, useless, she just could not relax, complete waste of her time and my time).

I have paid $400/4hrs to some models, for several photo sessions for each such model. But they were incredibly beautiful albeit had no experience modeling, and that was for fine art nudes. So again, just Econ101, supply and demand, experience or not, level of beauty. So those models (college students) earned $1200 for 12 hrs of work, which paid for a nice spring break vacation for them to Cancun and such and they were quite happy to do that modeling and had a lot of fun actually. And I have had gorgeous models pose for glamour/nude for free or just a TF image or two.

I think as this thread has helped point out, it is so important to have an agreement up front so nobody on either side of the camera feels slighted. I am all for that. As Covey said (Covey's 7 principles of highly effective people, or some such book title)-- always go for a win+win agreement, or a lose+lose (walk away), never a win+lose (or somebody feel's cheated and that karma can come around and nip you in the arse).

You have paid $1200 for inexperienced models because they are beautiful and nude? yes I imagine they were very happy to get that with no modelling experience rather than flipping burgers.

BTW many of us 'college students' get paid far better than we would flipping burgers for our actual reserach work. But yes if you just want me to frollick on a beach for 4 hours for $100 fine. I just thought you required actual skills for which other employers see as valuable in terms of modelling. smile Those of us who are or have been professional models will give your project more respect than thinking it is about frollicking.
Please do yourself a favour and if you are paying pay for a model with good experience of swimwear modelling and she won't see your project as 'frollicks' I promise you. What we do is as important as what you do in terms of creating images if we are doing our job right.

May 02 13 02:16 pm Link

Model

Tiffany Bond

Posts: 76

West Jordan, Utah, US

Images by MR wrote:

Yes if the model picks paid over TF.  If the photographers work has value than shoot TF.

We all have to make a living. What you're saying is that every decent model and every decent photographer should do nothing but tradework, otherwise, their work must be crappy. Which is silly and makes absolutely no sense.

May 02 13 02:22 pm Link

Model

Retiredmodel

Posts: 7884

Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom

Tiffany Bond wrote:

We all have to make a living. What you're saying is that every decent model and every decent photographer should do nothing but tradework, otherwise, their work must be crappy. Which is silly and makes absolutely no sense.

Futhermore while a model only needs so may thousand pictures of herself for her port to get her work a photorapher needs to sell the images themselves and has the copyright.

May 02 13 02:43 pm Link

Photographer

Mortonovich

Posts: 5559

San Diego, California, US

Images by MR wrote:
Yes if the model picks paid over TF.  If the photographers work has value than shoot TF.

Tiffany Bond wrote:
We all have to make a living. What you're saying is that every decent model and every decent photographer should do nothing but tradework, otherwise, their work must be crappy. Which is silly and makes absolutely no sense.

Noooooooooooooo . ..
What he means is you do work that pays the bills and then you still test now and then to keep the book fresh.
Everybody tests now and then. EVERYBODY. If they say they don't they are either lying or are showing work that proves it.

May 02 13 02:46 pm Link

Model

JadeDRed

Posts: 5461

London, England, United Kingdom

ChiMo wrote:
Everybody tests now and then. EVERYBODY. If they say they don't they are either lying or are showing work that proves it.

Contradiction.

May 02 13 02:51 pm Link

Model

Nathine

Posts: 144

Scottsdale, Arizona, US

I would always prefer a Paid over a TF or TFP shoot, but sometimes I feel charitable, especially if I like the work.

Nathine

May 02 13 05:38 pm Link

Photographer

AJ_In_Atlanta

Posts: 12836

Atlanta, Georgia, US

There are always reasons to  TF; to improve one's portfolio with new work, better work, or different work.  To think otherwise is shortsighted or the person is simply delusional; I have seen so many portfolio full of total crap with profiles that say "paid assignments only"

May 02 13 05:51 pm Link

Photographer

Images by MR

Posts: 7779

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Images by MR wrote:
Yes if the model picks paid over TF.  If the photographers work has value than shoot TF.

Tiffany Bond wrote:
We all have to make a living. What you're saying is that every decent model and every decent photographer should do nothing but tradework, otherwise, their work must be crappy. Which is silly and makes absolutely no sense.

That's not what I said..

May 02 13 05:55 pm Link

Model

Retiredmodel

Posts: 7884

Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom

AJScalzitti wrote:
There are always reasons to  TF; to improve one's portfolio with new work, better work, or different work.  To think otherwise is shortsighted or the person is simply delusional; I have seen so many portfolio full of total crap with profiles that say "paid assignments only"

That is only applicable to models at the top of the tree in fashion etc and then often they test with photographers approved by agencies. True that any model who has those heights in her sights it's a good idea because you are only as good as your last shoot.

But most of us that doesn't apply to. Most of us do not make our living exclusivley from photographic modelling. So we don't need to constantly test. Once you have a reasonable portfolio with the odd shoot update and it's getting the model the work she needs that is fine. Most of us do promo modelling or fitting/showroom or life modelling/fine art nude etc and other genres like alt, pin-up etc. If we are getting tall the work we need and have no ambition to take it to that elite fashion model stage then we don't need to test or do tf.

In the area of nude work in particular there are only so many thousand pictures you need. Unless that is your only income in which case you may be very selective in who you work for tf.

But I am not going to test or do tf unless it's my project idea - in which case it's a you shoot my idea and I'll shoot yours' arrangement. But most of the time as I don't control picture copyright these times are limited.

Plus I like may others only model part time. So if we are getting a few paid shoots a month on the strength of our existing posrt then that is enough.


That isn't shortsighted or delusional: it is realistic. A reasonable port that gets you work is enough unless one is in a market where you need to be shooting constantly for top agencies to keep you in the limelight and then only with very specific photographers.

May 03 13 03:02 am Link

Photographer

Boreal Photography

Posts: 292

Portland, Oregon, US

Eliza C wrote:
... Those of us who are or have been professional models will give your project more respect than thinking it is about frollicking. Please do yourself a favour and if you are paying pay for a model with good experience of swimwear modelling and she won't see your project as 'frollicks' I promise you. What we do is as important as what you do in terms of creating images if we are doing our job right.

I completely agree with you Eliza on that, and I most definitely would do as you suggest, I would simply love to pay for experienced beautiful models to help me do fashion/swimwear, models who know how to pose, provide the look including eye gaze and facial expressions, body movements. The problem is such models are basically absent where I live. I so envy photographers who live in Los Angeles, New York, Miami, even a large city like Minneapolis. In fact I have been giving serious thought to just signing up for or organizing a workshop that involves professional models, a group of photographers, travel to such an event. When I google for that I find such workshops taking place like now, too late for planning travel. Why don't some models in NY/LA/other organize regular (like every 3 months) fashion modeling workshops for photographers like me scattered all over the place to e.g. come to NY/LA and get some intensive fashion shots accomplished? everybody would win. I know I would be up for a quick flight to NY/LA/Miami for such a workshop, but there needs to be a site to announce it ahead of time a few months so I could get the airfare deal, etc.  I might consider travel to Mnpls, but then I have the problem not knowing locations, whereas I assume someone organizing a workshop would have that planned out.

May 03 13 05:14 am Link

Model

Retiredmodel

Posts: 7884

Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom

Randall_Oelerich wrote:
I completely agree with you Eliza on that, and I most definitely would do as you suggest, I would simply love to pay for experienced beautiful models to help me do fashion/swimwear, models who know how to pose, provide the look including eye gaze and facial expressions, body movements. The problem is such models are basically absent where I live. I so envy photographers who live in Los Angeles, New York, Miami, even a large city like Minneapolis. In fact I have been giving serious thought to just signing up for or organizing a workshop that involves professional models, a group of photographers, travel to such an event. When I google for that I find such workshops taking place like now, too late for planning travel. Why don't some models in NY/LA/other organize regular (like every 3 months) fashion modeling workshops for photographers like me scattered all over the place to e.g. come to NY/LA and get some intensive fashion shots accomplished? everybody would win. I know I would be up for a quick flight to NY/LA/Miami for such a workshop, but there needs to be a site to announce it ahead of time a few months so I could get the airfare deal, etc.  I might consider travel to Mnpls, but then I have the problem not knowing locations, whereas I assume someone organizing a workshop would have that planned out.

Sometimes it is possible to attract a model from a fair distance for a great location and a few shoots with fellow photographers either with a workshop or with local designers/boutiques and seperate shoots. And often the model will be waiting to do projects with a photographer in an area and simply waiting for another paid gig to kill two birds with one stone. I often travel back to London if I have a couple of gigs. So it's a good idea.

The other thing is that there may be models in your area that don't show up on a location beacuse the powers that be here only allow us to list one. In fact many models (and photographers) for example will list themselves as London when in fact they live a fair distance away. But they know people are searching the bigger cities more often and are used to travelling. So I was in two minds whether to list myself as Swansea or stick to London or even Gloucester as much of my work is there and parents live there. Ideally I'd like to list all three.

I imagine therefore that a good swimwear model may be closer than you think (or relish the trip because they have family friends etc near you) but list themselves as in larger cities. Post a casting call for an experienced swimwear model and a day rate and I bet you'll be surprised at the response. smile x

May 04 13 10:37 am Link

Photographer

Boreal Photography

Posts: 292

Portland, Oregon, US

Eliza C wrote:
...I imagine therefore that a good swimwear model may be closer than you think (or relish the trip because they have family friends etc near you) but list themselves as in larger cities. Post a casting call for an experienced swimwear model and a day rate and I bet you'll be surprised at the response. smile x

Thank you Eliza. I posted a casting call today here on MM, first one I have posted, so I probably need to learn how to better post CCs but at least it is a start. Now is the damn winter will just END! Still some snow on the ground here, unprecedented, so tired of winter and snow. I want warmth, sandy beaches to photograph fashion and swimwear!

May 04 13 03:18 pm Link

Photographer

Expression Unlimited

Posts: 1140

San Diego, California, US

I would offer TFCD and be prepared to offer pay if the models you want request it

rather than offer a dress in advance you could offer a choice of some ''cash or clothing'' at the shoot itself, if she likes one of the dresses

;-)

FYI the place to get bargain designer wear is ROSS or  TJ MAX

May 04 13 03:23 pm Link

Photographer

Expression Unlimited

Posts: 1140

San Diego, California, US

AJScalzitti wrote:
There are always reasons to  TF; to improve one's portfolio with new work, better work, or different work.  To think otherwise is shortsighted or the person is simply delusional; I have seen so many portfolio full of total crap with profiles that say "paid assignments only"

QFT

May 04 13 03:24 pm Link

Model

sasweets

Posts: 404

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Paid~. Makes a llama work a 100 times more to show you why they deserve to keep getting paid.

May 04 13 04:03 pm Link