Forums > Photography Talk > TFP : are you selecting the picts yourself?

Photographer

Dave McDermott

Posts: 451

Coill Dubh, Kildare, Ireland

Rebel Photo wrote:
A professional Photographer picks out select images  that represent his work for review by the client. Unless the Client is trained in Composition and all that technical stuff that makes or breaks a photo..they seem to always pick the worst. Do you really want your worst work out in public? If you don't care, you won't be around long...at least not profitably anyway.

Yes that is a problem. So many times a model picks out a photo she really likes which is often out of focus, poorly cropped, under/over exposed etc.

At the same time though, I want to keep the model happy and I'll usually send her the photo even if I don't like it. I just wouldn't bother to watermark it. If you're creating your own portfolio you're only going to be using your best images anyway.

Jul 13 13 10:25 am Link

Photographer

Trisha May Photography

Posts: 304

Colchester, Connecticut, US

I don't know, what are picts? ;D

Jul 13 13 10:29 am Link

Photographer

Rick OBanion Photo

Posts: 1351

Saint Catharines-Niagara, Ontario, Canada

I go through the  jpg sample images and rate 4 star, 5 star or nothing. Then I move the 4's and 5's to a folder and have the model come by or I go meet her and we pick out our favourite 5. On good days they are the same...on bad days I have 7 or 8 to do. By being there with them I can suggest WHY I like certain images they don't and what part of it they do not like that can be corrected.
I have had some models just ask me to pick some and email when done. I have had some ask for all samples (did that once..never again...instagram and FB hell ensued).
My MUA gets the same images except cropped to show her work better and sometimes let her look over all the pics.
I know it sounds bad but I found a very good MUA harder to find than a very good model.

Jul 13 13 10:36 am Link

Model

Miroslava Svoboda

Posts: 555

Seattle, Washington, US

Dave McDermott wrote:
Yes that is a problem. So many times a model picks out a photo she really likes which is often out of focus, poorly cropped, under/over exposed etc.

That's why you do not show the model photos that are not good from your stand point. I really don't want to see all the blinks, weird faces, bad crops, blurry and poorly lit photos.

Jul 13 13 10:39 am Link

Photographer

Ed Woodson Photography

Posts: 2644

Savannah, Georgia, US

I give the model five retouched images of their choice from the shoot. I put the entire low rez shoot on drop box.  I give them the five they choose plus any that I've chosen.

Jul 13 13 11:04 am Link

Photographer

Eralar

Posts: 1778

Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada

Anna Adrielle wrote:
I can tell you already that there will be some outraged photographers replying in this thread, partly because you let your model chose and partly because you edit 20 pictures from a shoot wink.

As a model, i prefer it when I have a say in which images gets selected. I don't mind if I don't get that opportunity, but I do appreciate it.

Well, frankly even if I discussed it before with a model, I find it hard to know exactly which pictures will better help her bring her port in the direction she wants, so I remove the pictures I definitely don't want to be seen by anyone, then let her choose over a proofs gallery or after the shoot, if we still have the time and energy.

But on the other hand, I understand why very experienced photographers believe they are quite able to choose themselves... after all, this is what they do for a living and excel at, and those models chose to shoot with them for their vision.

Jul 13 13 06:23 pm Link

Photographer

Tropical Photography

Posts: 35392

Sarasota, Florida, US

I've never understood why this subject is so difficult for so many.. Keep it simple..

Don't show ANY IMAGE you're not willing to be seen.. That way they can only pick one's you're willing to have seen..

That said, if I'm working with a total newb, I may actually show them all the images as a learning experience so they can approve, but they ONLY get to pick from what I'm willing to have seen..

Jul 13 13 06:39 pm Link

Photographer

M Barnes Photography

Posts: 217

Palmerston North, Manawatu-Wanganui, New Zealand

I can understand a model's frustration - as pointed out already, 'bad' shots where a pose or an expression doesn't work have learning value for them.

What I try and do is work through that during the shoot itself. I show the back of the camera a lot, explaining why something is working or not working. Sometimes I even ask opinions ("That back arch you're doing, I think it's a little distracting, what do you think?") and we adjust on the spot.

I find that also improves trust a lot, as the model knows they've put down some good work, and then can rely on me to pick out the best ones from a composition/exposure/focus/post-production point of view.

I honestly think communication is the key. In a TF shoot, we all (including MUA, stylist, etc) want good shots for our portfolios. It's much easier to talk about it before/during than have some kind of blame game argument afterwards, I would've thought.

Speaking of MUAs, I do the same."Do you want a close-up shot of that eye makeup?"

Jul 13 13 06:55 pm Link

Photographer

Eralar

Posts: 1778

Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada

M Barnes Photography wrote:
I can understand a model's frustration - as pointed out already, 'bad' shots where a pose or an expression doesn't work have learning value for them.

I'd be more than willing to build a separate proof gallery of pictures I rejected due to the pose... with the express understanding that these pictures are for learning purpose only, and not to be shown or used in any other way wink

Jul 14 13 06:28 am Link

Photographer

Kenny Goldberg

Posts: 260

Costa Mesa, California, US

I shoot, I choose the best, I edit the best of the best. I deliver anywhere from as few as 3 up to 24 images depending on how much I like them. But on a TF shoot, the choice is always mine. You can't please all the people all the time but thankfully in almost all the cases the model is very happy with the images I send them.

Jul 14 13 01:46 pm Link

Photographer

AJ_In_Atlanta

Posts: 12835

Atlanta, Georgia, US

If a model is agreeing to trade services with you it's because they want or value your images.

Jul 14 13 02:09 pm Link

Makeup Artist

Makeup Hair by Dani B

Posts: 746

Los Angeles, California, US

As a MUA/H, if I do something for trade/test it's not worth my time if I don't receive images that I can use in my book. For example, most of my paid work is in commercial, fashion/editorial, portraiture/corporate and my regular gig is theater. So for none of these clients (except an occasional fashion one) would it be helpful to have nudity in my book. If all the shots are full length body shots where the details of the hair and makeup are not visible, that is also useless to me. Black and white shots are not as useful as color.

This doesn't mean I don't trade on shoots where these things are involved. It simply means I make clear to the photographer what I need and can use and ask if they are able to meet those needs. I've never had anyone say no.

On a side note, the last trade shoot I did involved nudity and although my favorite image was nude, I can't use it in my book.sad So sometimes what an MUA you are trading with chooses is based on that and not a lack of awareness of what is technically and artistically the best shot.

This is just me, but I am perfectly happy with coming out of a test with one amazing shot I can use. I won't use more than one of a single model in my book anyway. But then I've been in the game almost 20 years, so...

Jul 15 13 01:41 am Link

Photographer

Select Models

Posts: 36230

Upland, California, US

Valenten Photography wrote:
Are you letting your model check the picts before you retouch them?

NEVER!... and are the images I select the best?... ALWAYS!... and does anyone else possess the ability to make a better selection?... NOT IN A MILLION YEARS!... that's why they pay me the big bucks... case closed!... borat

Jul 15 13 02:19 am Link

Photographer

P O T T S

Posts: 5381

Lake City, Florida, US

Often your needs are different from others involed. An MUA may only want close up beauty style shots or crops, the deisgner may only need full length.

I upload proofs to a gallery and let them pick ones they like. I get what I want they get what they want. Number of images they get to pick is usually agreed upon before the shoot.

Jul 15 13 02:23 am Link

guide forum

Model

Anna Adrielle

Posts: 18763

Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium

AJScalzitti wrote:
If a model is agreeing to trade services with you it's because they want or value your images.

...doesn't that work both ways?

every picture in my portfolio, I chose myself (in agreement with the photographer)

if a photographer is agreeing to trade services with me, can't I also say "it's because they want or value my images", and like what is in my port, and like what I have selected...?

PS not trying to be snooty here, just genuinely curious smile

Jul 15 13 02:28 am Link

Photographer

Innovative Imagery

Posts: 2815

Los Angeles, California, US

A TF shoot is a collaboration between ALL parties.  I shoot tethered whenever I can .  As the shoot progresses we review the images and discuss what we like and don't like.  Then we shoot some more with those corrections in mind.  We review the next section.  Then shoot some more.

By the end of the session the model have given me the expression and pose that works, I have tweaked the lighting and exposure so that it works and we do a final run through to pick the selects.  Since they are on a large screen rather than a small LCD, we can see clearly the expression and sharpness and it doesn't take long to make the final selection of the images I will edit and then deliver.

As I see it, this is fair to both parties as small errors are corrected during the shoot and there are no images released that are sub-standard and just those that satisfy the shoot and the needs of both parties are edited and retouched.  This reduces delays and keeps the process moving.

I also speak with the model before the shoot and go over the goals that we are both interested in getting from the shoot so we make sure to direct our energies to those goals.

Jul 15 13 02:41 am Link

Photographer

Greg Parke Photography

Posts: 27

Calgary, Alberta, Canada

On all shoots, I choose the photos to be edited, and only give copies of the edits. If it was agreed to be a TFP, or if it was a paid shoot and that I get to use the edits for my portfolio, they choose out of the edits I give them that they hate and I will not use them, out of respect of the model. Remember they have come to you, or agreed to work with you because they like your work and the way you do things.

Jul 21 13 10:31 am Link

Photographer

ShotbyRon

Posts: 767

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US

In most cases I let the model browse the pictures on camera at the end of the shoot. I keep track of the one's she likes the most on my phone. I just mark those 5 star in lightroom when I get home. I normally then pick the 10-20 best and give those back to the model fully touched up.

Jul 21 13 10:58 am Link

Photographer

Gary Melton

Posts: 6395

Dallas, Texas, US

A good photographer is much more than just someone who points a camera at something and pushes the shutter.  If a model chooses to work with a photographer based on his/her work, it's because he/she likes the finished products that the photographer is producing.  The finished product is a "gestalt" of the photographer's camera skills, lighting skills, composition skills, set direction skills and editing/retouching skills ("gestalt" is the concept that the total end result is MORE than the sum of the parts).

Any collaboration should (mostly) be happening before (during the photographer selection process and pre-shoot discussions), and during the shoot. Once the shoot is over, the ball should be pretty much exclusively in the court of the photographer.

If the model made a good photographer selection, the photographer will know (when reviewing all the photos taken): what to look for, what he/she can accomplish in post, which shots enhance the model's look, and which shots possess solid esthetic AND technical qualities.

If you don't trust the photographer's taste/judgement, then why did you choose him/her?

Jul 21 13 11:00 am Link

Photographer

Digitized Life

Posts: 20

Antioch, Tennessee, US

In a "trade for" setting I do, 90% of what the O.P spoke of.  I don't burn a CD because the model never comes back with selections.  They just run with what they have in hand which is not good for them & not good for me.  I load everything on a closed gallery on my site in a low resolution and with a funky full cover, low res watermark.

I tell the model to go to the gallery & select the images they want and send me the list with no restrictions on how many they can select.  If their list has 5 or 50 images I apply very basic editing to them all and find 10 that are on both of our lists and work on them. 

No disrespect to any models in this conversation but I've come to the conclusion that models do not look at images with the same type of eye that a shooter does.  If they see something they don't like, I will address it, in the final selection of shots.  I do this because a TFP means (to me) that everyone should walk away with what they want & need.

Jul 22 13 09:11 pm Link

Photographer

m_s_photo

Posts: 602

Port Moody, British Columbia, Canada

Kalimantan, Indonesia. That's where the best Wagler's vipers come from. Lucky guy.

Jul 22 13 09:20 pm Link

Photographer

photoimager

Posts: 4906

Stoke-on-Trent, England, United Kingdom

Trisha F Photography wrote:
I don't know, what are picts? ;D

The Picts were an ancient tribe in Britain that were he based in an area near where I live that is now being called the Peak District.

Jul 22 13 10:45 pm Link

Photographer

Art of the nude

Posts: 11892

Olivet, Michigan, US

Valenten Photography wrote:
Hey guys,

Usually, when shooting TFP, I send all the picts in very low resolution to the model so that she can make a selection. I then make my retouching selection based on both my tastes and those that the model selected. 10-20 picts in total.

I think it's fair like this because the model and I usually have very different selections (suprisingly). But sometimes it can be "boring" because my selection and her selection are really different.

Are you letting your model check the picts before you retouch them ?

Best regards,

Valenten
http://www.valentenphotography.com

I let them choose some, and I choose some.  It works for me. 

But I don't understand why that would be boring.

Jul 22 13 10:47 pm Link

Photographer

Art of the nude

Posts: 11892

Olivet, Michigan, US

Marin Photography NYC wrote:
If a model decides to work with you - it's based on your port and the images that you put in that port; that you chose. 

Why would you then let the model decide what images she should get? 

That seems counter productive but what the heck do I know...  big_smile

I chose a batch and she has to chose from that batch after I get rid of the bad ones. How many is debatable.

Except, a lot of the images in my port were chosen by models.  I figure that models know what appeals to models, at least a lot of the time.  And, unlike some photographers, I've often found that models can make excellent selections.

Jul 22 13 10:51 pm Link

Photographer

photoimager

Posts: 4906

Stoke-on-Trent, England, United Kingdom

At the end of a session, and sometimes during the session I run through the images with the model for them to edit the ones they want and I also select mine at this stage. I frequently work tethered so coding the model's choice 1, mine 2, WB target shots 3 and 'delete' 9 my editing is very quick. The 1s and 2s are the ones that will be post-processed and retouched with the 3s backing up custom in-camera WB readings made for each lighting setup. If no computer is handy then I simply use the 'lock image' option button to code the model's edit and review the images on the camera.

Models and photographers can see images differently. Different ideas of good and different aspects that they want to emphasise.

Jul 22 13 10:55 pm Link

Photographer

Art of the nude

Posts: 11892

Olivet, Michigan, US

Valenten Photography wrote:
Hey,

Thank you for all these very interesting answers.

What I get from them : since I'm shooting only TFP so far, I should make a selection of the pictures I like, and let her choose a few ones from that list + the ones I choose myself.

Indeed, as I was showing all of them (even if only in low res), it often happened to me to 'disagree' whereas the model only looks at how she looks (and not about the focus etc).

Valenten
http://www.valentenphotography.com

I used to show the model ALL of them, until a great friend teased me about one where the flash hadn't fired, and another model actually POSTED an image where you couldn't even see her.  So, now, I delete anything where the flash didn't fire, or lighting tests, or it's blurry (I shoot a lot at f2 or so, out of focus is the price).   THEN they get to pick what they want.

Jul 22 13 10:58 pm Link

Photographer

Mikey McMichaels

Posts: 2313

New York, New York, US

I shoot with great models who I pay in images. I like to pay them as well as I can, so I let them pick I give them as many as they ask for.

Sometimes there will be a photo that I veto, but usually I've sent them a gallery that's only images I'm happy with.

Jul 22 13 11:08 pm Link

Photographer

R.EYE.R

Posts: 2837

Tokyo, Tokyo, Japan

IPick the ones IUse. Models are free to pick ones they find appealing.

Jul 23 13 05:48 am Link

Photographer

Marin Photography NYC

Posts: 7249

New York, New York, US

Art of the nude wrote:
Except, a lot of the images in my port were chosen by models.  I figure that models know what appeals to models, at least a lot of the time.  And, unlike some photographers, I've often found that models can make excellent selections.

If the said model knows what good photography is then I wouldn't have an issue with letting the model select. I would be ok with this method if that was the case. Many models do not know what good photography looks like. So for that reason I would say no. 

A model with a great port and obviously knows what a good photo is then I would bend the rules....

Til then I select a batch they can chose from that batch or I just send the batch and tell them to find one from that selection and use a few or all I don't care. I send about ten - twenty depending on the shoot. I don't spend hours editing so it's easy for me....

I don't spend more than 5-10 mins on a photo. If it needs more I don't use it. Just my way, not a judgement on anyone else's work flow....TF isn't supposed to cost me more hours the way I see it...

Jul 23 13 06:01 am Link

Photographer

Loki Studio

Posts: 3024

Royal Oak, Michigan, US

For a rare test shoot, I pick my own 5-10 photos for editing.  I let the model pick her own 5-10 for editing.

Jul 23 13 06:25 am Link

Photographer

HoniDrops

Posts: 18

Dunwoody, Georgia, US

Valenten Photography wrote:
Hey guys,

Usually, when shooting TFP, I send all the picts in very low resolution to the model so that she can make a selection. I then make my retouching selection based on both my tastes and those that the model selected. 10-20 picts in total.

I think it's fair like this because the model and I usually have very different selections (suprisingly). But sometimes it can be "boring" because my selection and her selection are really different.

Are you letting your model check the picts before you retouch them ?

Best regards,

Valenten
http://www.valentenphotography.com

I used to do this, but TF models either took too long to make a section or begame extremely high-maintenance about pics.  Now, I pic 10 pics, edit them and send.  Done.

Aug 18 13 01:10 pm Link

Photographer

ontherocks

Posts: 22618

Salem, Oregon, US

i provide a session gallery and let the model choose. and i also give her the ones i retouch for myself.

for paying customer shoots we've moved toward just offering them say 30-40 images (photographer's choice) rather than going through the whole proofing process.

Aug 18 13 01:12 pm Link

Photographer

Abbitt Photography

Posts: 11727

Oakland Acres, Iowa, US

As the producer of the images, I choose what I feel will be a final product and what will not.  (quality control).  A model is free to choose and use as many or few of those as she or he desires.

When I go to a restaurant, I'm free to choose any of the menu items available.  I'm not free to walk back into the kitchen and demand which food items they must use for my meal.  - It's the same approach I use with my images.

Aug 18 13 01:17 pm Link

Photographer

HO Photo

Posts: 517

Los Angeles, California, US

I throw out the ones that are unusable (blinking, sneezing, out of focus, etc), and let the model choose what (s)he likes from the rest.

Aug 18 13 02:51 pm Link

Photographer

HO Photo

Posts: 517

Los Angeles, California, US

Abbitt Photography wrote:
As the producer of the images, I choose what I feel will be a final product and what will not.  (quality control).  A model is free to choose and use as many or few of those as she or he desires.

When I go to a restaurant, I'm free to choose any of the menu items available.  I'm not free to walk back into the kitchen and demand which food items they must use for my meal.  - It's the same approach I use with my images.

Wrong! You'd be surprised. Try ordering something not on the menu sometime. As long as they have the ingredients... they'll often make it for you.

Aug 18 13 02:52 pm Link

Photographer

London Fog

Posts: 6770

London, England, United Kingdom

TFP around 20 select edits that I have chosen, paid shoot, 5 that I have chosen.

Aug 18 13 02:59 pm Link

Photographer

SPierce Photography

Posts: 19791

Amherst, Massachusetts, US

Nope, not unless they get complicated and ask -- I choose all the shots that go out, nothing goes anywhere without being edited first. Usually i don't hear any complaints. Every time I let the model choose/they ask to choose... they choose the worst pics! I've learned not even to give the option.

Aug 18 13 02:59 pm Link

Photographer

GER Photography

Posts: 7950

Imperial, California, US

My workflow, use preview to shoot through and delete all of the OOFs and junk shots, then go back through slower and pick out the best shots and do simple lighting, color... Fixes in preview, the fixed shots go into a "best of models name" and they get a copy of those on disk, usually 50+ shots. If I really, really like a shot, I use PS to fix blemishes, power plugs... I figure if m keeping the shot, the model should get a copy.

Aug 18 13 03:03 pm Link

Photographer

Abbitt Photography

Posts: 11727

Oakland Acres, Iowa, US

HOSnap wrote:

Wrong! You'd be surprised. Try ordering something not on the menu sometime. As long as they have the ingredients... they'll often make it for you.

Ordering something not on the menu, is not the same as ordering a RAW product, or raw food from the kitchen that has not been processed and has not passed quality control.

Most producers of goods, including photos and restaurant meals, deliver a finished, or at least mostly finished product.   A few producers will allow customers to purchase unfinished or rejected material, but it's the exception, not the rule.

I choose not to offer the RAW materials, that I've rejected as being inadequate for a finished project. If you choose to, that's your business, but I think that's unusual, not common.  Most restaurants don't allow the customer to choose any raw, unfinished food for their meal.  Most photographers don't provide all RAW, images as their product.

Aug 18 13 03:04 pm Link

Model

JadeDRed

Posts: 5461

London, England, United Kingdom

On paid shoots I prefer the photographers to do all the choosing and editing, I want to help them create their vision and am grateful if they allow me to share their work too.

TFP is a little different as usually I have something in particular I want to get from it, so I like to have a bit of choice to make sure I get what I need. Often if it's something boring the photographer prefers to send them over and leave that to me, sometimes I even do the photoshoppy stuff too rather than more work for the photographer on something he is not particularly interested in using (stuff like plain headshots, reference photos for my art, or bland clothed shots for non-model stuff are examples of what I have traded for in this category).

A small selection in general is good though, if the photographer gets 3 good art nude shots, it's nice for me to be able to choose which one of those is most useful to me.

Aug 18 13 03:08 pm Link