Forums > Digital Art and Retouching > How to improve more on skin?

Retoucher

a k mac

Posts: 476

London, England, United Kingdom

The example you have posted is very problematic because there are a number of areas of very different skin quality. If you have already been exploring frequency separation, then I think you should explore that further, and this is a good problem-image to learn from. The main thing you should be aware of is that the problems lie within different frequency bands, and one pass of frequency separation will not fix the whole image. You need to carefully identify the frequency which allows you to isolate the heavy pore structure and bring it down a bit using Band Stop, while still leaving the finer structure intact. This involves masking specific areas and applying a number of Split Groups. You might even separate the image into four frequency levels. Here are posterised examples to emphasise the different levels to look at.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21186335/Screen%20shot%202013-07-19%20at%2007.14.54.jpg

Jul 18 13 11:41 pm Link

Photographer

R.EYE.R

Posts: 3436

Tokyo, Tokyo, Japan

Drew Smith Photography wrote:

Quite so.

But.. if your ambition is to be a cordon blue chef then you might want to avoid making McDonalds your reference point.

Quite so. And I do agree on this.

My point is concerning unnecessary elitistic snobbery.
End user (from my IT experience) neither wants nor needs to know how you prepared the result, as long as result is suitable to the needs.
We can debate this over and over, but if you ask an average reader of the high fashion magazine, they will hardly know what Photoshop is (a bit of exaggeration perhaps).

That's why 90% of bovine will chew their fodder while glaring into zombie box and then go spend their money on bigger zombie box and more fast food, and other 9% will go to the extremities to create an exclusive elite just to separate themselves from the rest.
Remaining 1% are those who truly couldn't care less about the religious crusades on heretic processing methods. But they are busy creating as opposed to us waging holy wars wink

I understand Natalia's explanation and would not question her technical expertise - she know what she is doing. But that is all good and proper as long as you know exactly which tones are affected and can clearly see the tonal differences.

There are numerous occasions where people concerned with purity of tones and control could not see clearly tonal differences between EOS7D and EOS5D MkII photos, or between Leica-R 100/2.8 and Nikkor Ai-s 105/2.5. Meanwhile differences were apparent.
If you are curious - look up one of the threads I updated here where I stated that Canon lenses did not transmit higher spatial frequencies as Zeiss equivalents - there are some links with examples.

Additionally, I hardly believe that many here will pass the X-Rite test with less than 4-5 in score (http://www.xrite.com/online-color-test-challenge), but that's my guess. Knock yourselves out and try. My result was 4.

I really want to see Portraiture and d&b methods side by side. Both done properly and unbiased. Just because this will speak to me volumes compared to explanations.

I hope I did not offend anyone - it wasn't my intention.

Sincerely.

Jul 19 13 12:54 am Link

Photographer

Camerosity

Posts: 5805

Saint Louis, Missouri, US

Jul 19 13 04:17 am Link

Photographer

Camerosity

Posts: 5805

Saint Louis, Missouri, US

If you want to see the best practices in retouching, check out this set. I have the set, and I'm on Series 1. I believe Krunoslav is still taping Series 4.

http://digitalphotoshopretouching.com/o … uching-dvd

Also, check out the free tutorials on the web site.

Jul 19 13 04:21 am Link

Retoucher

Natalia_Taffarel

Posts: 7665

Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina

R.EYE.R wrote:
End user (from my IT experience) neither wants nor needs to know how you prepared the result, as long as result is suitable to the needs.

There's your mistake. People hiring you are not the end user. The end user makes no difference, this is an industry the end user will never understand.

Advertising relies on the ignorance of the end user and fashion doesn't give a fuck.

End user? Really? If you focus on the discerning ability of the end user then use a point and shoot, and take a picture of the girl next door at noon.

Honestly it seems you're saying that because people cant tell the difference you would sell them cat instead of rabbit because you can't cook rabbit properly. Don't have a freaking restaurant!

Jul 19 13 04:54 am Link

Retoucher

Mike Needham Retouching

Posts: 385

Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom

I think AKMac is pretty spot on here. Portraiture does what a bandstop does in PS, if you are going to employ a bandstop via Portraiture you may as well learn how to do it in PS and with a smart layer just change the frequencies, with masking to achieve the same result, but in a more controlled fashion.

Asking for a comparison between dodge and burn and a what Portraiture does (band stop/pass) is comparing apples and oranges, they are not the same process. What you should be asking is for a bandstop done in PS versus Portraiture. In theory with good use of masks it should be the same more or less. I just don't see the need to pay for a plugin that produces the same results as the program that I already own, with seemingly less control.

And whilst bearing in mind that unsolicited critique is a no no, let's face it it's not the pores that are the major concern in this image.

Jul 19 13 05:02 am Link

Retoucher

Peano

Posts: 4106

Lynchburg, Virginia, US

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
Advertising relies on the ignorance of the end user

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
it seems you're saying that because people cant tell the difference you would sell them cat instead of rabbit

https://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2016/xby9.jpg

Jul 19 13 07:01 am Link

Retoucher

Natalia_Taffarel

Posts: 7665

Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina

Peano wrote:

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
Advertising relies on the ignorance of the end user

https://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2016/xby9.jpg

Because you can't cook rabbit properly.

Quoting part of a statement to make your joke valild ain't exactly making a point.

Jul 19 13 08:13 am Link

Photographer

Swank Photography

Posts: 19020

Key West, Florida, US

Tulack wrote:
Or negative clarity brush in RAW converter.

This is what I do

Jul 19 13 08:39 am Link

Retoucher

Peano

Posts: 4106

Lynchburg, Virginia, US

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
Because you can't cook rabbit properly.

Quoting part of a statement to make your joke valild ain't exactly making a point.

If he could cook rabbit properly, you would still be contradicting yourself.

Either it's acceptable to exploit people's ignorance, or it isn't acceptable. You can't have it both ways.

Jul 19 13 09:50 am Link

Photographer

WIP

Posts: 15973

Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom

Advertising promises happiness and peace of mind, it's up to the consumer to trust it or not and the best way is comparisons.

Jul 19 13 10:07 am Link

Retoucher

Natalia_Taffarel

Posts: 7665

Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina

Peano wrote:

If he could cook rabbit properly, you would still be contradicting yourself.

Either it's acceptable to exploit people's ignorance, or it isn't acceptable. You can't have it both ways.

I never spoke about the morality of it smile That's why it's not a contradiction.

Because you can't cook rabbit properly...
I'll let you think about it.

Jul 19 13 10:17 am Link

Retoucher

Peano

Posts: 4106

Lynchburg, Virginia, US

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
I never spoke about the morality of it

And for good reason.

Jul 19 13 10:20 am Link

Retoucher

Natalia_Taffarel

Posts: 7665

Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina

Peano wrote:

And for good reason.

Exactly!
It's advertising... nothing to do with morals.

Jul 19 13 10:23 am Link

Jul 19 13 11:12 am Link

Makeup Artist

sweetcheekscouture

Posts: 465

West Palm Beach, Florida, US

R.EYE.R wrote:

Quite so. And I do agree on this.

My point is concerning unnecessary elitistic snobbery.
End user (from my IT experience) neither wants nor needs to know how you prepared the result, as long as result is suitable to the needs.
We can debate this over and over, but if you ask an average reader of the high fashion magazine, they will hardly know what Photoshop is (a bit of exaggeration perhaps).

That's why 90% of bovine will chew their fodder while glaring into zombie box and then go spend their money on bigger zombie box and more fast food, and other 9% will go to the extremities to create an exclusive elite just to separate themselves from the rest.
Remaining 1% are those who truly couldn't care less about the religious crusades on heretic processing methods. But they are busy creating as opposed to us waging holy wars wink

I understand Natalia's explanation and would not question her technical expertise - she know what she is doing. But that is all good and proper as long as you know exactly which tones are affected and can clearly see the tonal differences.

There are numerous occasions where people concerned with purity of tones and control could not see clearly tonal differences between EOS7D and EOS5D MkII photos, or between Leica-R 100/2.8 and Nikkor Ai-s 105/2.5. Meanwhile differences were apparent.
If you are curious - look up one of the threads I updated here where I stated that Canon lenses did not transmit higher spatial frequencies as Zeiss equivalents - there are some links with examples.

Additionally, I hardly believe that many here will pass the X-Rite test with less than 4-5 in score (http://www.xrite.com/online-color-test-challenge), but that's my guess. Knock yourselves out and try. My result was 4.

I really want to see Portraiture and d&b methods side by side. Both done properly and unbiased. Just because this will speak to me volumes compared to explanations.

I hope I did not offend anyone - it wasn't my intention.

Sincerely.

In my case I just look at the portfolios of the retouchers advocating the methods and I discern my answer.

If one is happy with Mcdonalds why would would they even ask how to get better? If one is happy with slop maybe their palette isn't refined enough to know the difference.

I don't think it is elitist to look at one retouchers work and wonder why anyone would pay for that and then to look at another one's work and know that is something to aspire to.

*shrugs*

Jul 19 13 11:17 am Link

Photographer

WIP

Posts: 15973

Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom

Peano you are very naive if you think advertising has morals an example would be cigarette advert, advertisers and the agency's were well aware of there harm done by smoking yet continued selling those cancer sticks.

Alco pops and other such drinks are marketed with the work 'pop' making it sound like some sorts of soft lemonade yet it is a alcoholic drink.

Fur there was a huge outcry against wearing fur even the top model and photographers got in on the act.... a few years later all the fashion mags, top model were promoting fur.

Certain cars has faults in them especially in the 60's - death traps yet advertising still promoted them.


Advertising goes to the client who pays morals have nothing to do with it.

Jul 19 13 11:31 am Link

Retoucher

Peano

Posts: 4106

Lynchburg, Virginia, US

c_h_r_i_s wrote:
Peano you are very naive if you think advertising has morals an example would be cigarette advert, advertisers and the agency's were well aware of there harm done by smoking yet continued selling those cancer sticks.

Alco pops and other such drinks are marketed with the work 'pop' making it sound like some sorts of soft lemonade yet it is a alcoholic drink.

Fur there was a huge outcry against wearing fur even the top model and photographers got in on the act.... a few years later all the fashion mags, top model were promoting fur.

Certain cars has faults in them especially in the 60's - death traps yet advertising still promoted them.


Advertising goes to the client who pays morals have nothing to do with it.

https://img594.imageshack.us/img594/37/3jlo.jpg

Jul 19 13 12:39 pm Link

Retoucher

JBHarris

Posts: 38

Frisco, Texas, US

Why is it that there is always at least one person who feels like they know more about whatever subject is being talked about than people who work in the field day in and day out?

Jul 19 13 12:44 pm Link

Photographer

WIP

Posts: 15973

Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom

And the point Peano is that clients don't care what methods are used be it PS, Portraiture, d&b they don't even care if the model in the pic has no resemblence to her/his real self ...... as long as it convinces people to purchase the product/service.
Advertising exploits people hopes of a better life.
I recomend looking up Maslow the basis of all advertising.

Morals don't come into it but $ do.

Jul 19 13 01:19 pm Link

Retoucher

Natalia_Taffarel

Posts: 7665

Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina

Peano wrote:

https://img594.imageshack.us/img594/37/3jlo.jpg

Irony, since you're the one missing the point for a few posts now smile

Jul 19 13 01:31 pm Link

Photographer

Sergei Rodionov

Posts: 868

Dallas, Texas, US

*sighs*

Typical bickering started instead of politely asking proper questions.

Natalia, if you dont mind to answer this, could you please give some pointers for example like above, when light was incredibly bad for skin - what would you do to save it - dont need complete walkthrough, i wouldnt dare to steal as much of your time, but as if you were talking to someone who was through your videos and through Kurnoslav's.

As a photographer i see problematic light here, which happens sometime, when people getting persuaded by idiot friends to wear shiny makeup for the photoshoot (i had once people actually oiling themselves in makeup room.. that was NOT funny to shot). So light is too harsh and we can see pored open.

From what i gather normal process would be twofold
on lower frequency:
- even out skin tones , restore tones in burnt-out areas.
- work on d&b to reform shape of face itself a bit (so less neanderthal-ish look would be in place and kinda do digital sculpting makeup)
on higher frequency:
- work on  pores layer to make them less apparent - now that one always gets me, b/c you obviously cant make them smaller. You can however make them less apparently by smoothing transition on  edges with D&B - am i right? Is there anything else (ok, apart from usual "steal nice skin texture from somewhere and reapply")?

Thank you in advance.

Jul 19 13 02:06 pm Link

Retoucher

Natalia_Taffarel

Posts: 7665

Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina

Sergei Rodionov wrote:
*sighs*

Typical bickering started instead of politely asking proper questions.

Natalia, if you dont mind to answer this, could you please give some pointers for example like above, when light was incredibly bad for skin - what would you do to save it - dont need complete walkthrough, i wouldnt dare to steal as much of your time, but as if you were talking to someone who was through your videos and through Kurnoslav's.

As a photographer i see problematic light here, which happens sometime, when people getting persuaded by idiot friends to wear shiny makeup for the photoshoot (i had once people actually oiling themselves in makeup room.. that was NOT funny to shot). So light is too harsh and we can see pored open.

From what i gather normal process would be twofold
on lower frequency:
- even out skin tones , restore tones in burnt-out areas.
- work on d&b to reform shape of face itself a bit (so less neanderthal-ish look would be in place and kinda do digital sculpting makeup)
on higher frequency:
- work on  pores layer to make them less apparent - now that one always gets me, b/c you obviously cant make them smaller. You can however make them less apparently by smoothing transition on  edges with D&B - am i right? Is there anything else (ok, apart from usual "steal nice skin texture from somewhere and reapply")?

Thank you in advance.

1- I wouldn't save it. It won't look good for portfolio. Saving it would take a lot more time than reshoting. The whole concept of SAVING it's idiotic.
Further more, the process in that image CREATED more problems. If you don't have the right lighting or make up for a strong look why push it???
This is why retouching is much more than fricking techniques.

2- No, you do nothing on the low if you want high end results!
The frequency separation is only to make the healing/cloning process faster and more efficient. Nothing more.
The rest you work with light.

But it doesn't matter how many times I say the same things, people still claim there has to be another way.... so be it

Jul 19 13 02:38 pm Link

Photographer

WIP

Posts: 15973

Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom

I knew Natalia was going to say what she did. But I did have the edge on attending her seminar.

Jul 19 13 02:46 pm Link

Retoucher

JBHarris

Posts: 38

Frisco, Texas, US

Some of us listen Natalia, we just don't yell as loud as the people who swear they know better than you do as they sit at home not working in the field

Jul 19 13 03:25 pm Link

Photographer

Sergei Rodionov

Posts: 868

Dallas, Texas, US

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
1- I wouldn't save it. It won't look good for portfolio. Saving it would take a lot more time than reshoting. The whole concept of SAVING it's idiotic.
Further more, the process in that image CREATED more problems. If you don't have the right lighting or make up for a strong look why push it???
This is why retouching is much more than fricking techniques.

2- No, you do nothing on the low if you want high end results!
The frequency separation is only to make the healing/cloning process faster and more efficient. Nothing more.
The rest you work with light.

But it doesn't matter how many times I say the same things, people still claim there has to be another way.... so be it

Got it smile thank you.

Just trying to sort out new flow for myself, optimize process a bit and integrate what i got from DVDs, and i recently came across few tidbits around youtube on retouching that felt useful, but its like that situation when someone saying stuff and you agreeing.. and then 5 minutes after you go "what the.. no... NOOOOO" smile

Jul 19 13 03:41 pm Link

Retoucher

Peano

Posts: 4106

Lynchburg, Virginia, US

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
Irony, since you're the one missing the point for a few posts now smile

Let's see who's missing the point.

When you acknowledge that your livelihood depends on the ignorance of the people who ultimately purchase the products you create and promote, that raises questions of moral justification.

- When cigarette companies depend on customers' being ignorant of the health effects of smoking, are they morally justified in doing so?

- When cosmetics companies depend on customers' being ignorant of the fact that those women in the ads didn't come to look that way by using the advertised products, are they morally justified in doing so?

- When car companies depend on customers' not knowing that their cars can become gasoline bombs from a rear-end collision, are they morally justified in doing so?

- When pharmaceutical companies depend on consumers' not knowing that their sedative could cause pregnant women to deliver malformed babies, are they morally justified in doing so?

The list goes on and on, but the moral principle is the same throughout: When you acknowledge that you earn your living in an industry that depends on the ignorance of your customers, that raises questions about the moral justification of what you do.

You may choose to ignore or evade those questions, but what you do raises those questions nonetheless. To say that advertising "has nothing to do with morals" is beyond childish. It is infantile.

That was my point, and my only point.

Jul 19 13 06:21 pm Link

Retoucher

Retouch007

Posts: 403

East Newark, New Jersey, US

Sergei Rodionov wrote:
Got it smile thank you.

Just trying to sort out new flow for myself, optimize process a bit and integrate what i got from DVDs, and i recently came across few tidbits around youtube on retouching that felt useful, but its like that situation when someone saying stuff and you agreeing.. and then 5 minutes after you go "what the.. no... NOOOOO" smile

Yeah, don't touch that low layer and if you do make it as little as possible. It makes me laugh kind of because it sounds so technical and mathematical, which is great for some. I have an action and have used it from time to time but instead of naming the layers High Frequency and Low Frequency I used Texture and Color. At some point you will start to rock and just flow and probably just do everything on a jumped layer but that takes time and experience. It has evolved into more of a hand eye thing for me (I used to draw for years). I will give you a couple of simple and useful tips. I probably have said the same things countless times in the past you can look it up.  Zoom out don't zoom in too much work in work on big stuff first then go in and back out repeat and rinse. Use pen pressure and be aware every single you put the pen down how much pressure you are using everytime time you put that pen down. Learn the clone stamp you can smooth skin with it. Try the patch tool from time to time, very small selections though, so simple. Use visualization layers to do skin but do a part of it without them also because I have found at times you will get false positive with the visualization layers (ie. grayscale image maybe with curve for contrast). Also, don't over do it unless you are told I alway ask how far to go with the retouching before I start. I was retouching an image for Patrick Demarchelier and I thought it look great but my boss took a look at it and asked me to bring back some splotches back it was in the forehead this time "just remove the really dark ones leave the rest" the rest were texture to him he said "it takes the reality out of image" and he was right, lesson learned (that was for that specific job, jobs vary, degrees of retouching vary, depending on the job and/or photographers look).  If you are trying to change something and lets say the your brush is not working or taking more than a few strokes take that as a signal to try something else. Experimentation is the key but do try to get advise from working retouchers. Also, this might go contrary to advise you might have received but try not the change the lighting you can try to enhance but not change. Those light guys are paid top dollars to do that light unless you just want to practice on your own images or the photographer asks you to change the lighting tell him in advance you wanted to try something and put that in addition to the three color stories you give them in a separate folder.

Jul 19 13 06:49 pm Link

Photographer

MC Seoul Photography

Posts: 469

Seoul, Seoul, Korea (South)

Camerosity wrote:
http://www.computerarts.co.uk/tutorials … separation

Is there a better tutorial than this?
He tends to gloss over a lot of things, and the screens aren't really big enough to be useful. You can't zoom in to actually see what he's got set in most of them. So most of the things he's demonstrating can't really be seen as to what they actually do.

He mentions setting the blend mode of the high frequency layer to linear light, but doesn't mention what if anything the low frequency layer should be changed to.

He also goes off on to a lot of other things, clothes, background, etc I'd like to see a good one that really focused just on cleaning up the skin.

Jul 19 13 08:47 pm Link

Photographer

Camerosity

Posts: 5805

Saint Louis, Missouri, US

Camerosity wrote:
http://www.computerarts.co.uk/tutorials … separation

MC Seoul Photography wrote:
Is there a better tutorial than this?
He tends to gloss over a lot of things, and the screens aren't really big enough to be useful. You can't zoom in to actually see what he's got set in most of them. So most of the things he's demonstrating can't really be seen as to what they actually do.

He mentions setting the blend mode of the high frequency layer to linear light, but doesn't mention what if anything the low frequency layer should be changed to.

He also goes off on to a lot of other things, clothes, background, etc I'd like to see a good one that really focused just on cleaning up the skin.

I'm sure there is. In fact I know there's a better one on Phlearn.com. I spent 20-30 minutes looking for it. Unfortunately, they aren't indexed as well as they could be, and with three years of daily tutorials, interviews, etc...

Jul 19 13 09:03 pm Link

Photographer

LA StarShooter

Posts: 2730

Los Angeles, California, US

R G wrote:

Yeah, don't touch that low layer and if you do make it as little as possible. It makes me laugh kind of because it sounds so technical and mathematical, which is great for some. I have an action and have used it from time to time but instead of naming the layers High Frequency and Low Frequency I used Texture and Color. At some point you will start to rock and just flow and probably just do everything on a jumped layer but that takes time and experience. It has evolved into more of a hand eye thing for me (I used to draw for years). I will give you a couple of simple and useful tips. I probably have said the same things countless times in the past you can look it up.  Zoom out don't zoom in too much work in work on big stuff first then go in and back out repeat and rinse. Use pen pressure and be aware every single you put the pen down how much pressure you are using everytime time you put that pen down. Learn the clone stamp you can smooth skin with it. Try the patch tool from time to time, very small selections though, so simple. Use visualization layers to do skin but do a part of it without them also because I have found at times you will get false positive with the visualization layers (ie. grayscale image maybe with curve for contrast). Also, don't over do it unless you are told I alway ask how far to go with the retouching before I start. I was retouching an image for Patrick Demarchelier and I thought it look great but my boss took a look at it and asked me to bring back some splotches back it was in the forehead this time "just remove the really dark ones leave the rest" the rest were texture to him he said "it takes the reality out of image" and he was right, lesson learned (that was for that specific job, jobs vary, degrees of retouching vary, depending on the job and/or photographers look).  If you are trying to change something and lets say the your brush is not working or taking more than a few strokes take that as a signal to try something else. Experimentation is the key but do try to get advise from working retouchers. Also, this might go contrary to advise you might have received but try not the change the lighting you can try to enhance but not change. Those light guys are paid top dollars to do that light unless you just want to practice on your own images or the photographer asks you to change the lighting tell him in advance you wanted to try something and put that in addition to the three color stories you give them in a separate folder.

This was great to read and so were the thoughts of other working retouchers in this post. I have yet to really explore dodging and burning. I tried one of Natalia's tips in one of her posts but got lost in a nightmare forest of my own making. Nevertheless, I am getting proficient in other areas and I am practicing and getting a deeper understanding.

Jul 19 13 09:09 pm Link

Photographer

MC Seoul Photography

Posts: 469

Seoul, Seoul, Korea (South)

Camerosity wrote:

Camerosity wrote:
http://www.computerarts.co.uk/tutorials … separation

I'm sure there is. In fact I know there's a better one on Phlearn.com. I spent 20-30 minutes looking for it. Unfortunately, they aren't indexed as well as they could be, and with three years of daily tutorials, interviews, etc...

I just found this after googling
http://photo.tutsplus.com/tutorials/pos … ouch-skin/

it seems to be more or less the same process, but this guy zooms in so you can see exactly what and how he's setting it and it only focuses on the skin.

Jul 19 13 09:21 pm Link

Photographer

Camerosity

Posts: 5805

Saint Louis, Missouri, US

Camerosity wrote:
http://www.computerarts.co.uk/tutorials … separation

MC Seoul Photography wrote:
Is there a better tutorial than this?
He tends to gloss over a lot of things, and the screens aren't really big enough to be useful. You can't zoom in to actually see what he's got set in most of them. So most of the things he's demonstrating can't really be seen as to what they actually do.

He mentions setting the blend mode of the high frequency layer to linear light, but doesn't mention what if anything the low frequency layer should be changed to.

He also goes off on to a lot of other things, clothes, background, etc I'd like to see a good one that really focused just on cleaning up the skin.

Camerosity wrote:
I'm sure there is. In fact I know there's a better one on Phlearn.com. I spent 20-30 minutes looking for it. Unfortunately, they aren't indexed as well as they could be, and with three years of daily tutorials, interviews, etc...

Okay, I found it. Not the one on Phlearn, but the one I used to write my frequency separation cheat sheet from. I saved the URL’s in the cheat sheet.

There are actually two videos. One is for doing FS in 8-bit mode, the other is for 16-bit mode – which is preferable. You need to watch both videos, because as I recall the first steps for 16-bit mode are in the 8-bit video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH1UAzx4dRs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9Bybm-gxAM


And here’s my entire cheat sheet. I copied the relevant instructions from the 8-bit video, so in the cheat sheet just go to 16-bit.

~~~~~


FOR WORKING IN 8-BIT MODE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH1UAzx4dRs


Make two copies of the background layer. Name the first one Low and the second one High.

Select the Low layer and apply a Gaussian Blur with, sliding the Radius to the right until all blemishes disappear (a radius of 10 for the image used in the video).

Select the High layer. Select Image > Apply Image. Select Subtract as the mode. Use settings or 2 for scale and 128 for offset. Use Linear Light mode for the High frequency layer. (pulldown menu under Layers on panel at right of screen)

Then follow instructions in the video for 16-bit files.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9Bybm-gxAM

~~~~~

FOR WORKING IN 16-BIT MODE:

For working in 16-bit mode (highly recommended), skip the 8-bit instructions. For working in 8-bit mode, skip this part of the instructions.

Transform the image to a 16-bit image. Image > Mode > 16 Bits/channel

Make two copies of the background layer. Name the first one Low and the second one High.

Select the Low layer and apply a Gaussian Blur with, sliding the Radius to the right until all blemishes disappear (a radius of 10 for the image used in the video).

Select the High layer. Select Image > Apply Image. Select Low layer. Select Add as the mode. Use settings or 2 for scale and 0 for offset. Click the Invert check box. Everything else should be unchecked.

Use Linear Light mode for the High frequency layer. (pulldown menu under Layers on panel at right of screen)


~~~~~

FOR BOTH 8-BIT AND 16-BIT IMAGES:

Work mainly on the High frequency layer.

Select the healing brush tool. Select Current Layer and Normal mode. Sample an area with clean texture and remove the blemish. Repeat for each blemish. Just like using the Healing Brush tool in any other situation – except working on the High frequency layer with current layer selected.

Since you’re only working on the texture, you could use a large brush and cover larger areas of the skin with it to save time. However, there is a risk that the skin will end up looking plastic-ky. So don't.

You can use either Gaussian blur or Surface Blur. The advantage to using Surface Blur is that you can work closer to the edges.


If you want to go back to 8-bit mode after using Frequency Separation, first flatten the image. One way is to go to Image > Duplicate, then to Layer > Flatten Image, then change back to 8-bit mode.

Jul 19 13 09:34 pm Link

Photographer

MC Seoul Photography

Posts: 469

Seoul, Seoul, Korea (South)

Thanks, I also came across this video as well which seems really good
http://fstoppers.com/frequency-separati … lena-jasic

again similar, but she does a full edit and talks about the various tools.

Jul 19 13 09:52 pm Link

Retoucher

Natalia_Taffarel

Posts: 7665

Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina

Peano wrote:
Let's see who's missing the point.

Lets

Peano wrote:
When you acknowledge that your livelihood depends on the ignorance of the people who ultimately purchase the products you create and promote, that raises questions of moral justification.

What? I acknowledged no such thing. MY livelihood does not depend on advertising.
You made that up
I work much more in promotion of bands, editorials and teaching.

The only reason I spoke of advertising was to make clear the END consumer doesn't understand, nor has to understand what we do because they are not doing the hiring.

Yet I have nothing against advertising as long as it doesn't go against the law and the laws are being adjusted every day on the subject.
I find nothing wrong with selling something pretty to a consumer, since the consumer is FREE to educate itself. Consenting adults buying bullshit from eachother is not advertising exclusive.


Peano wrote:
- When cigarette companies depend on customers' being ignorant of the health effects of smoking, are they morally justified in doing so?

This doesn't apply anymore. CIGARETTES KILL is written in every box, it's not about ignorance it's about selling an adictive substance, that's where morals get in to it.
And it has nothing to do with advertising, since advertising cigarettes is against the law in most countries.

Peano wrote:
- When cosmetics companies depend on customers' being ignorant of the fact that those women in the ads didn't come to look that way by using the advertised products, are they morally justified in doing so?

I think that's why we have disclaimers now, underneath the ads
I don't make the laws Peano.
I agree with the disclaimers tho smile I'm all in for consumers to educate themself and making educated desicions.

- When car companies depend on customers' not knowing that their cars can become gasoline bombs from a rear-end collision, are they morally justified in doing so?

- When pharmaceutical companies depend on consumers' not knowing that their sedative could cause pregnant women to deliver malformed babies, are they morally justified in doing so?

No idea how this is conected to what I do. Yes, there's a lot of bad things in the world, are you saying everytime ignorance is used people like me are responsible?
Just because I do key images to advertise certain products?
I've never done advertising for something harmful.

Does that make you feel better?

The list goes on and on, but the moral principle is the same throughout: When you acknowledge that you earn your living in an industry that depends on the ignorance of your customers, that raises questions about the moral justification of what you do.

You may choose to ignore or evade those questions, but what you do raises those questions nonetheless. To say that advertising "has nothing to do with morals" is beyond childish. It is infantile.

That was my point, and my only point.

Again, I acknowledged no such thing smile

This situation reminds me to my Aunt Sally
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

What I said:

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
Advertising relies on the ignorance of the end user and fashion doesn't give a fuck.

Meaning: The end user doesn't know the difference between good photography and bad photography - Same with retouching.

There's no moral judgment on my part towards advertising in that line

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
Honestly it seems you're saying that because people cant tell the difference you would sell them cat instead of rabbit because you can't cook rabbit properly. Don't have a freaking restaurant!

Again, I'm not against selling something to the ignorant IN THIS CASE (comparing this to selling drugs that make you sick to ignorant people is a straw man argument)

My point was, the ignorance is being used to support mediocrity.

"I can't do it right, so I sell something cheaper because the end user can't tell"
If you can't do it, don't have a business doing it. Since the people doing the hiring CAN tell

Jul 20 13 05:33 am Link

Photographer

R.EYE.R

Posts: 3436

Tokyo, Tokyo, Japan

Not quite as extreme.
Remember that everything is relative. So is your perception of end result.
End user or viewer might assess result on a completely different criteria.

If a fashion industry publication's audience were only those working in fashion industry it would be a rather narrow audience, and in truth the audience are those who are looking to buy into an exclusive lifestyle.
Those people could not care how long you spent retouching the photo - they want to see something beautiful. Hence my earlier post - if they don't care how you retouched it, and they can't see precise tonal control you work with, is your time justified in terms other than personal gratification and recognition of those select few really scrutinising your work?

There is no need to go to extremities here but photographically Terry Richardson would spring to mind, except him you will notice a massive amount of on camera flash photographs for lads mags such as Maxim, FHM, Nuts, etc (besides fashion).
The audience of those couldn't care less about lighting and only look at female anatomy.

No matter which end you jump to - the end user dictates the content. If they ate unhappy - they don't buy. They don't buy - you don't get paid. Therefore they dictate the conditions. And as such, why would one get out of the way just to make it full of nuances which are entirely past their level of perception?

Now, personal aspirations and satisfaction are completely different items. If you (as in person) want to push yourself further to achieve the finesse - nothing wrong with that. It shows professionalism and passion for one's work.
But when it becomes ego feeding drive just to be different and feel special and as result looking down of those resorting to simple methods - it's not very nice.
Equally stating "well, that's the industry. If you can't stand the heat - get out of the kitchen!" just confirms the foul nature of it yet relying on someone else to take action and make a change.
Excusing what one does and calling oneself a professional with integrity is dividing by 0.

Still, is it possible to see the properly done Portraiture and D&B corrections on same photo side by side?

And we are not bickering - this is an important conversation regarding aproach to processing methods. I value and respect people's opinions.
Imho this is a friendly discussion of a topic rather important to quite a few people here!

Again, no offense to anyone.

Respect

Jul 21 13 10:05 pm Link

Retoucher

Natalia_Taffarel

Posts: 7665

Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina

Exactly, you mention other, not so high end publications. Ask retouchers how much they are paid for editorials published there? But not just that, how many higher paid gigs would you get from the exposure in those magazines? ZIP

This is (the fashion and beauty) a market and like any other market, it has a blueprint.

You either understand it and follow it or you spend the rest of your days doing test for MM photographers who think 50 USD an image is A LOT of money.

You either understand it and follow it or you spend the rest of your "carreer" retouching family portraits or stock images. Nothing wrong with that but it's certainly NOT the industry.

It has nothing to do with elitism or ego. I'm still taking time out of my routine to help people do something they love proeficiently and make a good living out of it.

In my classes I have around 40 students (%) out of those I know only around 2 or 3 students will UNDERSTAND the blueprint.

Flexmanta - Omar Josef did
Eva Ubani - did
Victorial will - did
Bastian Jung - did
Philipp Paulus - did
Brandon Mccann - did
RSphotocreation - did
Sebastian Bar - My current partner was also a student at some point smile

People that come to mind, people that I'm proud of, people making a living out of something they love. People who don't use portraiture wink

Create a good portfolio, use it to test with great photographers - create a great porfolio, use it to test with excelent photographers - create an excelent portfolio with publications and comercial content. With the testing done you should have a network and plenty of people recomending you because you did a great job.
You should have a steady body of work and clients that come back to you.

Photographers will work with agencies, you will be in touch with agencies, they will be pleased to work with you and contct you even when they use other photographers.

Bigger and better portfolio - bigger network - social media (FB, TMBLR, Twitter, youtube, Vimeo, etc)

Help people, answer questions, do charity work, move your name around no matter how much money people have, help them.

Work within a retouching agency to feel the rush
Work with a photography studio to get the contacts and understand team work

Keep your freelancing AT ALL TIMES

Find people you trust and delegate work, don't do what you don't like doing or you will do it wrong, outsource!

And finally, please, don't use portraiture smile

Jul 22 13 06:38 am Link

Photographer

Leighsphotos

Posts: 3070

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
Exactly, you mention other, not so high end publications. Ask retouchers how much they are paid for editorials published there? But not just that, how many higher paid gigs would you get from the exposure in those magazines? ZIP

This is (the fashion and beauty) a market and like any other market, it has a blueprint.

You either understand it and follow it or you spend the rest of your days doing test for MM photographers who think 50 USD an image is A LOT of money.

You either understand it and follow it or you spend the rest of your "carreer" retouching family portraits or stock images. Nothing wrong with that but it's certainly NOT the industry.

It has nothing to do with elitism or ego. I'm still taking time out of my routine to help people do something they love proeficiently and make a good living out of it.

In my classes I have around 40 students (%) out of those I know only around 2 or 3 students will UNDERSTAND the blueprint.

Flexmanta - Omar Josef did
Eva Ubani - did
Victorial will - did
Bastian Jung - did
Philipp Paulus - did
Brandon Mccann - did
RSphotocreation - did
Sebastian Bar - My current partner was also a student at some point smile

People that come to mind, people that I'm proud of, people making a living out of something they love. People who don't use portraiture wink

Create a good portfolio, use it to test with great photographers - create a great porfolio, use it to test with excelent photographers - create an excelent portfolio with publications and comercial content. With the testing done you should have a network and plenty of people recomending you because you did a great job.
You should have a steady body of work and clients that come back to you.

Photographers will work with agencies, you will be in touch with agencies, they will be pleased to work with you and contct you even when they use other photographers.

Bigger and better portfolio - bigger network - social media (FB, TMBLR, Twitter, youtube, Vimeo, etc)

Help people, answer questions, do charity work, move your name around no matter how much money people have, help them.

Work within a retouching agency to feel the rush
Work with a photography studio to get the contacts and understand team work

Keep your freelancing AT ALL TIMES

Find people you trust and delegate work, don't do what you don't like doing or you will do it wrong, outsource!

And finally, please, don't use portraiture smile

Well said.

Jul 22 13 07:37 am Link

Photographer

R.EYE.R

Posts: 3436

Tokyo, Tokyo, Japan

I remember times when Maxim and FHM published quality material. I still keep scans from amazing work done by numerous photographers for calendars and publication itself.

By ego I don't mean misanthropy - I refer to a way of using a technique and making it into identity. Quite similar to advent of Photoshop and digital photography and all the bricks shart at digital shooters by oldfags (pardon crude wording). Rings a bell?
Or endless Canon/Nikon holy wars going on.
When you start associating yourself with what you do and not who you are you get this result.
Recording industry used to be similar with reel recorder mastering and other tripple gate fed haemorrhoids - all to end up as MP3 rips on some philistine's HD to be blasted through 10$ USB speakers.

There we have two directions - sell mass produce to a large audience cheaply or sell to limited expensively and make others grind their teeth and wetting their beds at night desperately wishing they would be members of the exclusive elite blissfully ignorant of all liquify, puppet warp, d&b, content aware fill and other bells and whistles wink

Many here studied art, colour theory (Goethe), lighting, composition, but many failed to read on social psychology and art of human mind manipulation. I sincerely recommend to check it out...smile

Don't get me wrong - and I really enjoyed reading your post Natalia. You are a proffessional and an a highly skilled such. I just find it extremely patronising to agree with someone no matter what - as we say in Russi: truth is born in an argument.
I just question the devotion with such you hold on to D&B when only professionals will appreciate it?

This is an endless debate, and rather than typing this on iPhone would love to chat in a café over a bottle of wine or something similar smile so I will call it a day.

Perhaps it's up to me to try and create a comparison using Portraiture and D&B. Just don't expect it to be too professional big_smile

If there is an interest in this:
I will have a shoot with a model this sunday and will use my CY35-70/3.4 Zeiss which is known for its microcontrast - it should capture the pores abd texture very well in harsh lighting.
I will use Portraiture on one of the shots and use my D&B best I can. Please, note that despite my posts here I am impartial to either method.
Additionally, certain level of grain will be added on top and colour tweaked in exactly same manner for both shots.

Best Regards

Jul 23 13 03:57 am Link

Retoucher

Mike Needham Retouching

Posts: 385

Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom

R.EYE.R wrote:
I will use Portraiture on one of the shots and use my D&B best I can.

They are not comparable, a band stop/pass would be equivocal, not dodge and burn.

Jul 23 13 06:02 am Link