Forums > Model Colloquy > Reciprocity, reply times & communication skills

Photographer

FlirtynFun Photography

Posts: 13151

Houston, Texas, US

here's a huge suggestion as your profile says you've been doing this for a year:

Don't post a rant bitching about models in the Models Forum. The ONLY result you'll get is models who ARE reliable silently deciding NOT to work with you.

Come back after 5 years of hiring and working with models and I imagine your experience will be a bit different. (if you're the type of person who learns from mistakes)

Sep 11 13 09:00 am Link

Photographer

Antediluvian Design

Posts: 1137

Dunmore, Pennsylvania, US

FlirtynFun Photography wrote:
here's a huge suggestion as your profile says you've been doing this for a year:

Don't post a rant bitching about models in the Models Forum. The ONLY result you'll get is models who ARE reliable silently deciding NOT to work with you.

Come back after 5 years of hiring and working with models and I imagine your experience will be a bit different. (if you're the type of person who learns from mistakes)

I can bet 99 percent of his alleged rant goes unnoticed by any model he has an interest in working with. It is an endemic problem in which he is drawing attention to with his post. If the guy wants to blow off some steam, I have no problem with it. In professional life this behavior is unacceptable. It is however in the bizarro world of Internet/amateur/semi-professional modeling. All he is seeking is a level of professional decorum. Anything less should not be tolerated. I think all the critics just need to cut the guy some slack.

If you were here five years ago, you had a different experience. Those model mayhem glory days of creativity are gone. We are all left with urban street fighting.


Namaste

Johnny J, Boozitect

Sep 11 13 01:18 pm Link

Photographer

FlirtynFun Photography

Posts: 13151

Houston, Texas, US

Antediluvian Design wrote:

I can bet 99 percent of his alleged rant goes unnoticed by any model he has an interest in working with. It is an endemic problem in which he is drawing attention to with his post. If the guy wants to blow off some steam, I have no problem with it. In professional life this behavior is unacceptable. It is however in the bizarro world of Internet/amateur/semi-professional modeling. All he is seeking is a level of professional decorum. Anything less should not be tolerated. I think all the critics just need to cut the guy some slack.

If you were here five years ago, you had a different experience. Those model mayhem glory days of creativity are gone. We are all left with urban street fighting.


Namaste

Johnny J, Boozitect

I disagree...I've been here longer than 5 years. Adults were bitching about "youngins" even in the 50's.
I learned long ago to turn right or left when I ran into a brick wall.
When I improved my portfolio and learned which models to book/not book, when I helped make them money, I stopped having trouble finding/working with models. When I stopped trying to chase unprofessional people and started dealing only with professional people, a LOT of my problems went away.

Sep 11 13 03:23 pm Link

Photographer

Antediluvian Design

Posts: 1137

Dunmore, Pennsylvania, US

FlirtynFun Photography wrote:

I disagree...I've been here longer than 5 years. Adults were bitching about "youngins" even in the 50's.
I learned long ago to turn right or left when I ran into a brick wall.
When I improved my portfolio and learned which models to book/not book, when I helped make them money, I stopped having trouble finding/working with models. When I stopped trying to chase unprofessional people and started dealing only with professional people, a LOT of my problems went away.

Not dealing with unprofessional people I do agree with. An old pro photographer and others here told me a long time ago to hire professional models. Stop dicking around with hobby TF models. Me being an ideological beginner thinking I knew better tried to do it on the cheap. As a result my portfolio stopped evolving. There is a painful learning curve to be a great photographer.

Sep 11 13 03:39 pm Link

Photographer

Toto Photo

Posts: 2791

Belmont, California, US

huremics wrote:
If by "nice thing" you mean an acknowledgement, then, yeah, sure, I do hope/expect something of the kind. Not unreasonable.

In theory, yes. In practice what you've created by such an expectation is a covert contract. Since the other party knows nothing of the covert contract, it is, in fact, unreasonable to expect the unknowing party to adhere to its terms.

Sep 11 13 03:44 pm Link

Model

JadeDRed

Posts: 5460

London, England, United Kingdom

Toto Photo wrote:

In theory, yes. In practice what you've created by such an expectation is a covert contract. Since the other party knows nothing of the covert contract, it is, in fact, unreasonable to expect the unknowing party to adhere to its terms.

That.

Sep 11 13 03:49 pm Link

Photographer

huremics

Posts: 178

Raleigh, North Carolina, US

Toto Photo wrote:

In theory, yes. In practice what you've created by such an expectation is a covert contract. Since the other party knows nothing of the covert contract, it is, in fact, unreasonable to expect the unknowing party to adhere to its terms.

That's pretty insightful and well written. And yeah, it is the difference between the theory/"should" and the reality, which is that people do as they do, and some aren't raised with an emphasis on "please" and "thank you." I guess it's just garden variety manners/politeness, which I probably shouldn't expect from others as my inherent right.

Sep 11 13 03:55 pm Link

Photographer

Toto Photo

Posts: 2791

Belmont, California, US

huremics wrote:

That's pretty insightful and well written. And yeah, it is the difference between the theory/"should" and the reality, which is that people do as they do, and some aren't raised with an emphasis on "please" and "thank you." I guess it's just garden variety manners/politeness, which I probably shouldn't expect from others as my inherent right.

Thank you.

"Shouldn't" or even "should" are such troublesome words for me. I like to think of it this way: such expectations come with consequences. The main one in such a circumstance, I think, being stress.

Sep 11 13 04:02 pm Link

Photographer

Garry k

Posts: 27191

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Erlinda wrote:
I am so sad to see another butt hurt photographer on the models forum complaining about models…….

Humans don't reply. It's not just models…….. We all do it… I do it and I do it because I don't want to waste my time replying to someone I don't care for or have any interest in working with…. I have better things to do with my time. This is how most people that don't reply think… Not just photographers, not just models or mua or women… Most human beings just don't care.

I'm sorry to break it to you, it's a sad day I know. sad

This

and ( to the OP ) Why clutter up the Modelling Forum with YOUR issues regarding Models ?

Sep 11 13 04:52 pm Link

Photographer

huremics

Posts: 178

Raleigh, North Carolina, US

Garry k wrote:

This

and ( to the OP ) Why clutter up the Modelling Forum with YOUR issues regarding Models ?

Are you saying I posted this in the wrong forum- if so, which is the correct forum?
As for the whole "YOUR issues" notion, it's a perfectly valid topic IMO, and I don't give a shit if X number of posts have already dealt with this. Not gonna go searching for them. It's not like the Internet is gonna run out of space.

If you think it's a dumb post or topic, fair enough, though opining about it = Whatever, IMO.

Sep 11 13 05:06 pm Link

Photographer

huremics

Posts: 178

Raleigh, North Carolina, US

Toto Photo wrote:

Thank you.

"Shouldn't" or even "should" are such troublesome words for me. I like to think of it this way: such expectations come with consequences. The main one in such a circumstance, I think, being stress.

Yep.

Sep 11 13 05:32 pm Link

Photographer

FlirtynFun Photography

Posts: 13151

Houston, Texas, US

huremics wrote:
Are you saying I posted this in the wrong forum- if so, which is the correct forum?
As for the whole "YOUR issues" notion, it's a perfectly valid topic IMO, and I don't give a shit if X number of posts have already dealt with this. Not gonna go searching for them. It's not like the Internet is gonna run out of space.

If you think it's a dumb post or topic, fair enough, though opining about it = Whatever, IMO.

funny but the more you post, the less likely you are to attract professional models willing to work with you. The answer is to learn humility, learn from others mistakes, quit bitching and to step back from the keyboard. (not necessarily in that order)

Sep 11 13 05:33 pm Link

Model

Danielle Reid

Posts: 4379

Little Rock, Arkansas, US

Antediluvian Design wrote:
Would I be out of line saying generally models are self centered megalomaniacs who think of nothing but themselves generally. Just sayin. smile

Replace models with photographers and it becomes a two-way street.

Sep 11 13 05:44 pm Link

Photographer

huremics

Posts: 178

Raleigh, North Carolina, US

FlirtynFun Photography wrote:
funny but the more you post, the less likely you are to attract professional models willing to work with you. The answer is to learn humility, learn from others mistakes, quit bitching and to step back from the keyboard. (not necessarily in that order)

Fair enough points, can't disagree with them. Though the idea that discussing this on photography/modeling forum is a bad idea or counterproductive is kind of weird. It's obviously a dynamic that is common so why not vent about it here and solicit feedback? But yes, endless kvetching does reflect poorly on a poster, I agree. I'd cop to being a bit too sensitive and to expecting like treatment, both of which do cause unnecessary annoyance when the world decides not to play by my rules (big surprise, right?). But I don't really think this is going to ruin my chances of working with professionals since I've presented a reasonable POV here.

But I'll take your advice and give this topic a rest.

Sayanora all and thanks to those with constructive feedback.

Sep 11 13 05:59 pm Link

Model

Elizabeta Rosandic

Posts: 951

Santa Fe, New Mexico, US

huremics wrote:

If you have nothing to contribute, why post?

That was my contribution. There is literally about a post a day made by a photographer in the modeling forum bitching about models. Roughly 80% of the time, it's about models not replying to their messages. With how y'all talk in the forums I'm not surprised that models don't want to answer.

Sep 11 13 09:35 pm Link

Photographer

Antediluvian Design

Posts: 1137

Dunmore, Pennsylvania, US

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:

That was my contribution. There is literally about a post a day made by a photographer in the modeling forum bitching about models. Roughly 80% of the time, it's about models not replying to their messages. With how y'all talk in the forums I'm not surprised that models don't want to answer.

I honestly don't think many models read the forums.

Sep 11 13 09:42 pm Link

Model

Elizabeta Rosandic

Posts: 951

Santa Fe, New Mexico, US

Antediluvian Design wrote:

I honestly don't think many models read the forums.

We do. We just often don't post because it's full of photographers with a fetish for talking down to young women.

Sep 11 13 09:58 pm Link

Photographer

DougBPhoto

Posts: 38557

Portland, Oregon, US

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:

We do. We just often don't post because it's full of photographers with a fetish for talking down to young women.

You are correct and it is unfortunate that it is even overtly true in THE Model forum of all places.

Sep 11 13 10:01 pm Link

Photographer

Antediluvian Design

Posts: 1137

Dunmore, Pennsylvania, US

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:

We do. We just often don't post because it's full of photographers with a fetish for talking down to young women.

You do yes. I see regulars posting here and I can tell who they are but I disagree. I don't think they are that interested for the most part.

Sep 11 13 10:03 pm Link

Model

Elizabeta Rosandic

Posts: 951

Santa Fe, New Mexico, US

Antediluvian Design wrote:

You do yes. I see regulars posting here and I can tell who they are but I disagree. I don't think they are that interested for the most part.

http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=898682

Sep 11 13 10:07 pm Link

Photographer

Antediluvian Design

Posts: 1137

Dunmore, Pennsylvania, US

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:

http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=898682

Same old cast of characters for the most part.

Sep 11 13 10:16 pm Link

Photographer

Richard B Clark

Posts: 310

Longview, Texas, US

huremics wrote:

That's a really good point. Thanks for making it. Going to remember that and try to integrate that POV from here on out.

It's worth noting that I feel this way about interactions with people in every aspect of life, not just working with models. Reciprocity is one of the yardsticks whereby I measure a person's character. Maybe a less invested, more removed approach is appropriate in the photography scenario.

I skipped some of the responses to your post. I really like what you say here about your interactions with people in general. It does show you are astute enough to know how to treat people in a respectful, honest way. You're also dead on about measuring a person's true character.

I also am impressed with your kindness to the models who had issues or problems by sending them cards. Perhaps some would think unprofessional, but showing people you care in the right way can't be wrong. If a model is uncomfortable with feelings and any kind of emotion, then you can back off and keep it cold and professional. I generally can't completely devoid myself of caring or not how the models I work with are comfortable and enjoying the shoot.

Don't let any of your bad experiences change your basic character or discourage you from being the kind of person you are. You will receive negative, some downright rude remarks here. Don't let that change you either. This profession seems to be rife with big egos and lots of pride, like some people are continuously in competition to best each other. I'm not throwing that at anyone in particular, just a blanket statement.

Hang in there and concentrate on the professional, responsible models that respond  positively to your way of doing business. You build a good business by being a  dedicated, honest and responsible person. Say what you'll do and do what you say; no games or deceit; no matter what the rest of them do.

Sep 11 13 10:33 pm Link

Photographer

Garry k

Posts: 27191

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:

We do. We just often don't post because it's full of photographers with a fetish for talking down to young women.

sad but true

Sep 11 13 11:53 pm Link

Photographer

T-D-L

Posts: 10303

Los Angeles, California, US

In a perfect world, everyone would be on top of responding to msgs.  MM is not a perfect world though, and for a variety of reasons someone might not be as quick to respond as we'd like.  It can either be a warning sign/red flag, or maybe they're just really busy with real life.  It's up to you do decide if you want to pursue working with someone if their communication isn't up to your standards.

As for reciprocity with regards to helping get your name out there: meh.  No one is responsible for marketing your work.  No one except you that is.  If someone decides to help get your name out there then just be happy about it, but don't expect it.  Marketing one's self is hard enough, you can't expect a model who is also trying to get work to take on the task of getting your name out there and getting you work as well.

Sep 12 13 12:02 am Link

Photographer

JD Liddil

Posts: 98

North Haven, Connecticut, US

So the OP simply put to paper the thoughts many of us have and just let churn in our heads or just let it go. Maybe how I define the small stuff is based on what is expected in my day job/profession.

JD

Sep 12 13 06:32 am Link

Model

Elizabeta Rosandic

Posts: 951

Santa Fe, New Mexico, US

Antediluvian Design wrote:

Same old cast of characters for the most part.

If that's what you noticed then you missed the point if that thread.

Sep 12 13 06:34 am Link

Photographer

Toto Photo

Posts: 2791

Belmont, California, US

Antediluvian Design wrote:
Same old cast of characters for the most part.

I couldn't disagree more. When I went to Elizabeta's very informative link I was pleasantly surprised to see so many models posting who I'd never seen posting before.

Sep 12 13 09:41 am Link

Model

GQ The Couture Model

Posts: 316

Seattle, Washington, US

In the mass communications age courtesy gets thrown out the window I had a project go south after a simple misunderstanding.I look at this way it was the photographers loss not mine.

Sep 12 13 09:45 am Link

Photographer

Antediluvian Design

Posts: 1137

Dunmore, Pennsylvania, US

Toto Photo wrote:

I couldn't disagree more. When I went to Elizabeta's very informative link I was pleasantly surprised to see so many models posting who I'd never seen posting before.

I just did a search of female models within 100 miles of me. It came to 8,713. I think it is a drop in the bucket of models I can tee off in a rant forum. If I teed off 500 models, that still leaves 8,213 in the pool. Say half of them don't have a snowballs chance in hell to appear in my port. That leaves 4,106. Then there are new members who may or may not want to work with me which is a perpetual percentage.

The man wants to rant, rant on. He has a right to rant. I don't think it will effect his prospects one iota. As for myself, I take sport in all the games and dysfunctional ism. I am settled to believe it is part of the hobby as a GWC. I didn't start out cynical and snarky. It just happened living in the mayhem.

Sep 12 13 06:55 pm Link

Photographer

Toto Photo

Posts: 2791

Belmont, California, US

Antediluvian Design wrote:
I just did a search of female models within 100 miles of me. It came to 8,713. I think it is a drop in the bucket of models I can tee off in a rant forum. If I teed off 500 models, that still leaves 8,213 in the pool. Say half of them don't have a snowballs chance in hell to appear in my port. That leaves 4,106. Then there are new members who may or may not want to work with me which is a perpetual percentage.

The man wants to rant, rant on. He has a right to rant. I don't think it will effect his prospects one iota. As for myself, I take sport in all the games and dysfunctional ism. I am settled to believe it is part of the hobby as a GWC. I didn't start out cynical and snarky. It just happened living in the mayhem.

I was simply saying there were many models posting in Elizabeta's link who I've never seen posting before--most supporting the views she's expressed. If anyone is at all interested in finding out how cynicism and snarkiness affects models who were kind/brave enough to post there, it is an illuminating read. Upon deep enough reflection on those posts it also hints at a way we all could help alter the course of the river, one tributary of which, the OP describes.

Sep 13 13 12:12 pm Link

Retoucher

Natalia_Taffarel

Posts: 7665

Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina

You sound needy.

I recently sent a get-well card to a model who was hospitalized, but haven't heard back.

Did you find out because of her Facebook or she told you ? Is she your friend or have you shot once?

When I get a weird vibe from someone I stop replying, usually to never reply again unles that person asks me and I tell them "you freaked me out a bit" or "you made me feel unconfortable".

I don't have to like you just because we worked together once.

Sep 13 13 12:47 pm Link

Photographer

FlirtynFun Photography

Posts: 13151

Houston, Texas, US

Antediluvian Design wrote:

I just did a search of female models within 100 miles of me. It came to 8,713. I think it is a drop in the bucket of models I can tee off in a rant forum. If I teed off 500 models, that still leaves 8,213 in the pool. Say half of them don't have a snowballs chance in hell to appear in my port. That leaves 4,106. Then there are new members who may or may not want to work with me which is a perpetual percentage.

The man wants to rant, rant on. He has a right to rant. I don't think it will effect his prospects one iota. As for myself, I take sport in all the games and dysfunctional ism. I am settled to believe it is part of the hobby as a GWC. I didn't start out cynical and snarky. It just happened living in the mayhem.

and yet if you DON'T rant in an industry forum, there's 500 more models who won't tell their friends to steer clear of you.

Sep 13 13 02:07 pm Link

Photographer

Tony Lawrence

Posts: 19225

Chicago, Illinois, US

OP, if you are still around remember that most of the models here aren't really interested in modeling as a career or even part time income.   Most won't update their profiles or reply to offers unless money is mentioned.   They won't like your posts of FB even if you like theirs.   Understand that many are much younger then we are.   They tend to not understand the value of smart networking and building and maintaining  bridges.    When I lived in Texas a fellow photographer paid a model to work with him and had me join in.   We had her face done at the mall.   We bought her some outfits, paid her and gave her some photos.   

Later he asked if she ever acknowledged receiving any of the images.   She didn't.   Nor did she she thank him for the work or clothing.   Not that she had too mind you but he would have paid her again for another shoot.   She did ask me later about paid work.   Its largely the same here.   Models won't respond or emails.   They flake then wonder why they don't make any money.   If someone pays you or does TF.   Say, thank you.   Liked on FB?   Like back.   Learn to cultivate business friendships.   Smart freelance models get re-booked.   A model I worked with and paid, snail mailed me a thank you card.   Small things like that can reap big rewards.   If your booking work through your agency.   Christmas time send a card or bring them a gift.   Cookies or donuts or some wine.   

Good manners, replying to all serious offers even to say a polite no.    Following up after to say thank, responding even of Facebook with likes may not seem important but if they get you work can be.

Sep 13 13 03:11 pm Link

Photographer

LA StarShooter

Posts: 1868

Los Angeles, California, US

It's okay to cry. But it's better to have pride, that thing that goest before a fall. Because if you're proud you'll never want to appear weak before others.

I do the customary things when someone is sick, send them good wishes. But I don't think a post like this is good for you. Venting should occur privately where no one but a friend can see your weakness and how you're affected by people who forego certain conventions.

If you get paid it is always better to have people focus on the hiring you part. Nothing in this post will create more paid work for you?

Sep 13 13 03:32 pm Link

Model

Isis22

Posts: 2567

Muncie, Indiana, US

Antediluvian Design wrote:

I just did a search of female models within 100 miles of me. It came to 8,713. I think it is a drop in the bucket of models I can tee off in a rant forum. If I teed off 500 models, that still leaves 8,213 in the pool. Say half of them don't have a snowballs chance in hell to appear in my port. That leaves 4,106. Then there are new members who may or may not want to work with me which is a perpetual percentage.

The man wants to rant, rant on. He has a right to rant. I don't think it will effect his prospects one iota. As for myself, I take sport in all the games and dysfunctional ism. I am settled to believe it is part of the hobby as a GWC. I didn't start out cynical and snarky. It just happened living in the mayhem.

Try seeing how many models are actually active and those statistics might be of some value.

Sep 13 13 04:32 pm Link

Photographer

Antediluvian Design

Posts: 1137

Dunmore, Pennsylvania, US

Isis22 wrote:
Try seeing how many models are actually active and those statistics might be of some value.

In his market, yes I agree. I live in Smell-A. The land of broken dreams and broken a-holes. It is expected for me to be cynical and snarky. It offsets others cynicism and sarkiness. North Carolina is the dirty south. A land of voter supression, gun slinging rednecks and Yankee carpet baggers. I think his attitude would be a fresh perspective to that proper southern gentility. My guess is there is world class hobo shootin back there of whom will do a two hour shoot for a bottle of Thunderbird. A model is a model is a model.

Namaste,

Johnny J, Boozitect

Addendum:

This is the reply I got to a recent casting post on Craigslist.

Vespas are for 90's "mod" revivalist losers who are too pussy to ride motorcycles. Suck a dick, dick.

I can post her tumbler link. She is a self proclaimed "professional photographer".

Sep 13 13 05:06 pm Link

Photographer

huremics

Posts: 178

Raleigh, North Carolina, US

Hey all. Thanks for the input.

I just needed to vent at that time, hence the original post. If I gave some folks the idea that I am crying about it, seeking meaningful friendships with those I've worked with, or expecting anything beyond simple professional reciprocity and manners, then I didn't express myself well. None of the above.

If something analogous happened in a work scenario, social scenario, or family scenario, I would feel the same way. Just so happens on MM I have a forum I can solicit others' feedback- both that of models and photogs who've been in similar situations.

Upon reflection, I do tend to agree with those who've stated that this kind of a post is ill advised in terms of how others might perceive me. But by the same token, I would prefer not to work with people who dont practice (or understand) professional courtesy and reciprocity- in this case replying to emails regarding shoot, or follow-up shoot, ideas and dates. Namely models I have done one or more shoots with and who indicated they want to do more, or those models who have been exchanging messages with me on MM about setting up shoots. Not someone who has never met me or worked with me- no reply there is fine IMO. Not every email warrants a reply.

I've also benefitted from reading the POV of others here, and have some different perspectives I find helpful to consider and possibly adopt. So in that regard I have benefitted from posting. Not too worried about this largely theoretical idea that I am going to miss out on working with all these great models due to my post. A) I doubt it (models can read?!? smile  JOKE!!!) and B) if they don't agree with my idea of what constitutes professional communication after a dialogue has been established, then I would rather not work with them.

I'm done here, and have moved on past that annoyance that led to my original post. (Nor will I give a crap about Facebook likes and such, as FB is inherently shallow and self-centered.) And now have a better idea of what works for me and what doesn't as far as professionalism/courtesy and lack thereof goes. Should help separate the wheat from the chaff.

Have a great weekend, all. (And treat one another with courtesy and respect!)

Sep 13 13 07:50 pm Link