Forums > General Industry > Model wrath....when should you cut your losses?
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Photographer

Jennifer Haggerty

Posts: 1203

New York, New York, US

If you believe these images can get published and want to push for that inform her that that is the decision that would most benefit her in adding tearsheets to both of your respective portfolios.

If you are no longer confident that the images will be published then send her what you finished and be done with it. Block her or add her to a blacklist.

Edit: I'm sorry you have to deal with this!

Mar 06 14 10:56 am Link

Photographer

Tony Lawrence

Posts: 19225

Chicago, Illinois, US

studio36uk wrote:

You weren't "forced" to do any such thing. You should have shut it down as soon as she opened her mouth.

C'est la vie; C'est la guerre. So sad, too bad; bye bye!

Studio36

You are on point.   When shoots start going that way.   Shut 'em down.  I also wouldn't give her unedited photos and that won't be the end.   Once she sees she can punk you, she'll be back with demands for money or something else.   Unless its your magazine you can't guarantee publication.   Going forward I would write up a basic model release that details exactly what models will receive and how and if a magazine submission might work.   Giving her all the images may seem like it may end things but it likely won't and you don't want to ever give in to blackmail.   Block her on Facebook.   Block her here if she is a member.

Mar 06 14 11:32 am Link

Photographer

Motordrive Photography

Posts: 3101

Lodi, California, US

Loki Studio wrote:
I would recommend a response of:

"We agreed that this would be a photo shoot for submission for magazine publication as this would be a great accomplishment for our careers.  Since exclusivity is critical for publication, I will provide the edited photos to you after I have attempted to get them published for 4 months.  I never agreed to provide you all the unedited photos.

Your new demand for all photos is a breach of our agreement for this shoot.  Reputations work both ways. Shall I recommend you as a reliable and professional new talent or as a diva amateur who broke our agreement? "

this seems reasonable, it's a reminder of original agreement, has a timeframe and
consequences for further bad behavior.

Mar 06 14 11:38 am Link

Photographer

Dark Magus

Posts: 6888

El Cajon, California, US

When she walked in unprepared to do the concepts you outlined for her that should have been enough to send her packing. If she had a problem she should have communicated it prior to the shoot. Showing up unprepared shows a lack of respect. There are literally thousands of models on MM and the vast majority of them will understand your concept and get behind  it.

Mar 06 14 11:52 am Link

Photographer

altSWANK

Posts: 89

Maplewood, New Jersey, US

Thanks for the feedback everyone. 

Just to clarify a things people commented on:

The casting calls and subsequent conversations I had with her were very clear that this shoot was for tear sheets/ magazine submissions.  We did not discuss what would happen if the images weren't published and my release form was just my standard release and did not cover any of that.  Up until now, that's not been an issue but I guess I need to create a release for that specifically as well too.

As to why I didn't end the shoot...because I thought I invested quite a bit into it.  With the changes she made, the shoot was still salvageable.  Those changes weren't enough to pull the plug. 

When she showed up that day she did demonstrate modeling skills but it was difficult to get the emoting/ expressions I needed to fit the theme.  After working with her for a bit, I managed to get some smiles and laughing.  It was difficult though and that is not something I could have told from screening her or her portfolio.

I'm not sure that destrying everything is the answer.  I had a MUA that put some great work into the shoot, it took time, planning, wardrobe, etc.  I'm sure the images could be published by someone, but perhaps just giving her the images that I already retouched and calling it a day is a better solution.

Mar 06 14 01:31 pm Link

Photographer

Orca Bay Images

Posts: 32234

Woodinville, Washington, US

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Give her the unedited photos and hope she doesn't give you credit, because those images might not be all that great.

That just gives her more ammo with which to escalate the fight. She's now free to take the worst shots, edit them into something far worse, and credit the photographer for that.

Don't ever leave it to hope that an angry, vengeful person will somehow do the right and kind thing.

Mar 06 14 01:48 pm Link

Photographer

The Shoeplay Warehouse

Posts: 66

Washington, District of Columbia, US

I'd be tempted to give her nothing.

Mar 06 14 03:25 pm Link

Photographer

barepixels

Posts: 2910

San Diego, California, US

how about send her here to read.  maybe she will learn something.

Mar 06 14 03:43 pm Link

Photographer

Andrew Thomas Evans

Posts: 24078

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

studio36uk wrote:
In the alternative? Destroy everything and call it a wash. You can no longer give what you no longer have.

Studio36

wow




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Mar 06 14 05:00 pm Link

Photographer

Andrew Thomas Evans

Posts: 24078

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

altSWANK wrote:
Thanks for the feedback everyone. 

Just to clarify a things people commented on:

The casting calls and subsequent conversations I had with her were very clear that this shoot was for tear sheets/ magazine submissions.  We did not discuss what would happen if the images weren't published and my release form was just my standard release and did not cover any of that.  Up until now, that's not been an issue but I guess I need to create a release for that specifically as well too.

As to why I didn't end the shoot...because I thought I invested quite a bit into it.  With the changes she made, the shoot was still salvageable.  Those changes weren't enough to pull the plug. 

When she showed up that day she did demonstrate modeling skills but it was difficult to get the emoting/ expressions I needed to fit the theme.  After working with her for a bit, I managed to get some smiles and laughing.  It was difficult though and that is not something I could have told from screening her or her portfolio.

I'm not sure that destrying everything is the answer.  I had a MUA that put some great work into the shoot, it took time, planning, wardrobe, etc.  I'm sure the images could be published by someone, but perhaps just giving her the images that I already retouched and calling it a day is a better solution.

Sorry if I'm assuming too much.

You did a shoot that didn't turn out as planned, retouched some images, they got rejected, and you're still trying to fight to get them published and then fight with a model?

Why don't you put all that effort into planning a new shoot, finding a new model, and pass out the images that are already retouched, then call it a wash?



I'm just not following the need to be a dick here, or a ass and delete all the pics, or even trying to find a place for them to be published anymore. 




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Mar 06 14 05:02 pm Link

Photographer

L Bass

Posts: 957

Nacogdoches, Texas, US

popcorn

Mar 06 14 05:27 pm Link

Photographer

Andrew Thomas Evans

Posts: 24078

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

Loki Studio wrote:
Your new demand for all photos is a breach of our agreement for this shoot.  Reputations work both ways. Shall I recommend you as a reliable and professional new talent or as a diva amateur who broke our agreement? "

Honestly I couldn't care less what another photographer would say about talent in my area, and actually it hasn't really come up. It's almost like high school all over again, gossip, and who is dating who. There are always two sides to the story, you have to consider the source, and in the end it's best to find out yourself sometimes than pick through everything that's said.

Plus, being a diva works both ways, which again is why I'd have to consider the source.




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Mar 06 14 05:31 pm Link

Photographer

Tony Lawrence

Posts: 19225

Chicago, Illinois, US

altSWANK wrote:
Thanks for the feedback everyone. 

Just to clarify a things people commented on:

The casting calls and subsequent conversations I had with her were very clear that this shoot was for tear sheets/ magazine submissions.  We did not discuss what would happen if the images weren't published and my release form was just my standard release and did not cover any of that.  Up until now, that's not been an issue but I guess I need to create a release for that specifically as well too.

As to why I didn't end the shoot...because I thought I invested quite a bit into it.  With the changes she made, the shoot was still salvageable.  Those changes weren't enough to pull the plug. 

When she showed up that day she did demonstrate modeling skills but it was difficult to get the emoting/ expressions I needed to fit the theme.  After working with her for a bit, I managed to get some smiles and laughing.  It was difficult though and that is not something I could have told from screening her or her portfolio.

I'm not sure that destrying everything is the answer.  I had a MUA that put some great work into the shoot, it took time, planning, wardrobe, etc.  I'm sure the images could be published by someone, but perhaps just giving her the images that I already retouched and calling it a day is a better solution.

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate for a moment.   Once your model found out the shoots wouldn't be published she wanted them all.   At this point she may feel used.   I think many issues can be worked out.   No texts.   No angry or defensive emails.   Call her and try to negotiate a deal that is fair to both of you.   If she asks for every image tell her as I do she can see them on your computer and you will work on some of those SHE likes.   If she continues to demand all of them politely say no.   Give her those you have edited.    You can't stop her from being angry or talking about you.   You can try to work something out with her.

Mar 06 14 05:39 pm Link

Photographer

altSWANK

Posts: 89

Maplewood, New Jersey, US

Tony, I see your point but she wanted ALL the photos before I had even submitted them to the magazine, like a few days after the shoot. 

My suspicion is that she wanted to use the photos from our shoot for her portfolio, so that she could visit agencies in NYC. Early on she asked me for all of the photos, and said she didn't care if they were unedited. 

So, her insistence to have something from the shoot began even before the actual photos were submitted.

Mar 06 14 05:48 pm Link

Photographer

altSWANK

Posts: 89

Maplewood, New Jersey, US

Koryn wrote:
...or, you could just shoot with me when I'm in New Jersey next month, and I won't aggravate you about anything afterward...


wink

I like the way you think.  wink

Mar 06 14 05:49 pm Link

Photographer

Tony Lawrence

Posts: 19225

Chicago, Illinois, US

altSWANK wrote:
Tony, I see your point but she wanted ALL the photos before I had even submitted them to the magazine, like a few days after the shoot. 

My suspicion is that she wanted to use the photos from our shoot for her portfolio, so that she could visit agencies in NYC. Early on she asked me for all of the photos, and said she didn't care if they were unedited. 

So, her insistence to have something from the shoot began even before the actual photos were submitted.

Hmmm... Is there a way for to batch process the images?   https://www.itg.ias.edu/content/editing … -photoshop   This assumes you have CS and are willing to do that.   This also assumes you don't want her back at your place.   You can then send them in a zip file to drop box.   I would not provide images that really look bad and based on your work I'm sure you have a 99% success rate.   Ask why she wants photos that don't look good.   Explain that you only want your best to be shown and she should want that as well.   Sometimes no matter your best efforts things just don't work out but be calm, listen and respond with patience.   
I'm sorry you are going through this.

Mar 06 14 05:59 pm Link

Photographer

PatRat

Posts: 150

Charleston, South Carolina, US

That's all?

I once worked with a model
whom all that know the whole story refer to as Satan...

I just call her "Miss Most Likely to Nail a Cats Head to my Front Door!"

Ignore her long enough and she will eventually fade into memory..


Ahhh... Good Times!

=^.^=

Mar 06 14 06:13 pm Link

Photographer

altSWANK

Posts: 89

Maplewood, New Jersey, US

UPDATE:  I decided to just send the model the photos that I was submitting to the magazines and call it a day.  I was not rude, just professional and to the point.

She emailed back saying "thank you, these are actually beautiful- congrats!"  Then wanted to know if I would like to be credited and how.  LOL 

She then asked me if I could send her another one of a pose she did on the floor and after that she wouldn't bother me again.

Mar 07 14 08:11 am Link

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Model

Koryn

Posts: 36736

Boston, Massachusetts, US

altSWANK wrote:
UPDATE:  I decided to just send the model the photos that I was submitting to the magazines and call it a day.  I was not rude, just professional and to the point.

She emailed back saying "thank you, these are actually beautiful- congrats!"  Then wanted to know if I would like to be credited and how.  LOL 

She then asked me if I could send her another one of a pose she did on the floor and after that she wouldn't bother me again.

That wasn't so bad.

Mar 07 14 08:31 am Link

Photographer

Hi_Spade Photography

Posts: 897

Darlington, South Carolina, US

PatRat wrote:
That's all?

I once worked with a model
whom all that know the whole story refer to as Satan...

I just call her "Miss Most Likely to Nail a Cats Head to my Front Door!"

Ignore her long enough and she will eventually fade into memory..


Ahhh... Good Times!

=^.^=

Since you are close to me, I'd love to know who this "Satan/"Miss Most Likely to Nail a Cats Head to my Front Door!" is so I won't make the same mistake you did wink.

Mar 07 14 08:42 am Link

Photographer

Darren Brade

Posts: 2834

London, England, United Kingdom

altSWANK wrote:
UPDATE:  I decided to just send the model the photos that I was submitting to the magazines and call it a day.  I was not rude, just professional and to the point.

She emailed back saying "thank you, these are actually beautiful- congrats!"  Then wanted to know if I would like to be credited and how.  LOL 

She then asked me if I could send her another one of a pose she did on the floor and after that she wouldn't bother me again.

Now go out there and re-shoot it with someone willing to do the job as advertised.

Note, it's always good to do a small shoot first to test the model rather than take a gamble on an "unknown".

Mar 07 14 04:30 pm Link

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Photographer

CHAD ALAN

Posts: 3810

Los Angeles, California, US

altSWANK wrote:
UPDATE:  I decided to just send the model the photos that I was submitting to the magazines and call it a day.  I was not rude, just professional and to the point.

She emailed back saying "thank you, these are actually beautiful- congrats!"  Then wanted to know if I would like to be credited and how.  LOL 

She then asked me if I could send her another one of a pose she did on the floor and after that she wouldn't bother me again.

That's a nice end to the story.

Mar 09 14 01:07 am Link

Photographer

TomFRohwer

Posts: 696

Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany

RacerXPhoto wrote:
"We don't negotiate with terrorists"

Word.

Mar 09 14 04:33 pm Link

Model

Torttu Doris

Posts: 253

Lappeenranta, South Karelia, Finland

I am so sorry to hear this! Sounds like blackmail galore to me indeed. Ruffle up some unedited images, block the wench, and be done with it.
Good luck!

Mar 12 14 08:02 pm Link

Photographer

altSWANK

Posts: 89

Maplewood, New Jersey, US

When this first went down, I was upset because I knew we could get those published with a little more time.   I don't have mentors or experienced photographers I can ask for advice regularly so I've had to muddle my way through a lot of this.  This experience taught me a little somethin' though.

For 2014, I've decided that I'm going to take incidents that happen, good and bad, and treat them as a learning experience.  I'm going to try and keep my own ego out of the equation when it comes to photography.   I've found that over my entire experience in photography, when I let my ego run rampant, I was the one with the anger, jealousy and indigestion....whether I was right or wrong. 

I know that sounds like new age guru nonsense, lol   Really though, when I do that, I enjoy photography so much more.  smile

Mar 13 14 06:55 am Link

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Photographer

Giacomo Cirrincioni

Posts: 21385

New York, New York, US

altSWANK wrote:
....During the shoot I found her not so easy to work with. Even though I told her the ideas in advance, she decided that some she didn't want to do, so I was forced to modify the outfits and ideas...

Who runs your shoots, you or the models?

Mar 13 14 08:21 am Link

Photographer

altSWANK

Posts: 89

Maplewood, New Jersey, US

I think I covered that earlier on the 2nd page.

Mar 13 14 09:15 am Link

Photographer

rdallasPhotography

Posts: 966

Norristown, Pennsylvania, US

MoRina wrote:
What I don't see in the OP is any agreement on what the model would receive if the submission was rejected. 

Did you advise her that she would receive nothing in the event of a rejection, or did you tell her that you would keep re-submitting for X period of time before giving up the idea of publishing those images and then you would share a couple images for her portfolio?

If you look at this from the model's point of view, she did the shoot in hope of getting the tearsheets. With the absence of tears, she has nothing, not even a picture for her portfolio in return for her time.

I don't condone either side harassing the other, and we only hear one side here...

" I was very specific in my casting call and in our conversations that the shoot was TF for magazine publication, and that she would receive hi res tears if published.  She agreed to that and signed a release. "

He told her she would receive tears if published. That implies nothing if they aren't. Having said that, I didn't see anything regarding what would happen if that one mag rejected them. I would presume she'd expect to get something from the shoot since she did it, albeit she wasn't what the OP was expecting or looking for. I assume there are some good shots or he wouldn't have sent them to the magazine.

I just edited this message since I saw that the issue was resolved! I'm glad that it ended well. smile

Mar 13 14 10:17 am Link

Photographer

rdallasPhotography

Posts: 966

Norristown, Pennsylvania, US

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
Who runs your shoots, you or the models?

That raises a question: You have a shoot set like the OP had. When the shoot begins, the model switches gears and says she doesn't want to do some of what was agreed upon and doesn't give it her all (like the model referred to by the OP did)...what options are there? Someone said he should have stopped the shoot. Is that really better than trying to make the best of the situation? If the model  doesn't fully cooperate, ultimately what would be the best course of action?

Mar 13 14 10:28 am Link

Photographer

altSWANK

Posts: 89

Maplewood, New Jersey, US

Good question!  I make the determination to end the shoot based on the current situation.  Each situation is different.

Some photographers are more hardliners and have a zero tolerance policy- always, while some photographers just let anything pass- the consummate pushover.

I felt the shoot was not a disaster by any stretch.  Given what was already invested in it, it was worth continuing. I've had shoots in my early MM days which I ended on the spot...but they are rare. 

The models lack of emotion was an obstacle I knew I could overcome.  I don't think she was doing it on purpose.  For whatever reason, she wasn't giving me the lightheartedness I needed.  Frankly, I saw it as a challenge and I got the playful shots I need for the submission.

MM is a fickle place. On one hand you'll find photographers criticizing that if the model isn't having her absolute best shoot ever with you that it is YOU who is at fault.  That you weren't doing something right to bring it out of the model.  But then you have a shoot with a model who isn't on her game 100% and the same photographers tell you that you should have ended it immediately.

Go figure!  lol  smile

Mar 13 14 11:19 am Link

Photographer

Orca Bay Images

Posts: 32234

Woodinville, Washington, US

altSWANK wrote:
MM is a fickle place. On one hand you'll find photographers criticizing that if the model isn't having her absolute best shoot ever with you that it is YOU who is at fault.  That you weren't doing something right to bring it out of the model.  But then you have a shoot with a model who isn't on her game 100% and the same photographers tell you that you should have ended it immediately.

It's not fickle to expect the photographer to be in charge of his or her shoot.

And a model who decides to refuse to do the agreed-upon looks is not "not on her game 100%." She quit the game and is now trying to run the shoot. It's one thing to be unable to pop an expression or a pose. It's something else entirely to agree to do a look in order to get the gig, then once at the gig scrap the agreement.

Shit happens, but for just about every glitch there's usually something that could have been done to prevent it. In the case of a model tossing a wrench into a commercial shoot, there's the option of having multiple models, or at least a backup.

Mar 14 14 10:15 am Link

Photographer

altSWANK

Posts: 89

Maplewood, New Jersey, US

I agree, but I was talking about two entirely different things altogether.  lol

Mar 14 14 10:29 am Link