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Unreliability
So a quick rant to start: Today I worked on a photoshoot that a photographer that we had planned about a month in advance. Originally we had a model, hair stylist, wardrobe stylist, and us all involved and all presumably on the same page. There were call sheets sent out by the photographer and everyone was kept updated. The model disappeared a few days before the shoot and no one could get in contact. So we scrambled and managed to replace her. Then the hairstylist dropped out. Today the photographer, me, and our assistants were all left in a lurch because the replacement model AND the wardrobe stylist failed to show up or even call. The shoot was ultimately saved because we wandered around asking random women to model for us and found someone who worked out great. What I want to know is why is there no rating system on this site? There really should be a way to leave feedback on someone's profile so that you can check into them a bit before setting up a shoot. Does anyone know any tricks about how to figure out anything about people before planning to work with them? Oct 12 14 10:00 pm Link Arielle Williams wrote: Hire a model from a well known modelling agency. And check references for all others Oct 12 14 10:09 pm Link Reliability is the biggest problem with anything where you work with other people, in today's world. No show models are notorious. No show make up and hair, are also a problem, as are stylists. I suppose there are even no show photogs. This site doesn't want anyone knocking models, because their presence is what drives the site, and makes it viable for the owners. That is not going to change. Having dealt with these issues for many years, before internet modeling ever existed, I learned how to minimize these problems. They can never be eliminated. People are just too unreliable, to totally eliminate them. These are not the only issues that create havoc, however. You can encounter problems with locations (I once had to wait for a hotel exec to vacate the suite I had arranged to shoot in, who arrived unannounced, and decided he deserved to use the suite, the previous evening. That was of course, an infrequently used, high end suite.) You simply have to do the best you can. Even with agency models, you can have someone get tied up, ill, or whatever, and have to accept a substitute model at the last minute. In the case of support people, they have to have a good reason, for not showing up.......like they had a car wreck.......or they wouldn't be called again. Obviously that should also apply to models who don't show up. Unless they have a good, provable reason, they should never get a second chance. In this age of smart phones, there is little excuse for not calling at all. Oct 13 14 07:04 am Link I'm never mad when they have a good reason, or at least call and say they can't make it. But just disappearing without a word is ridiculous. This was a TFP shoot so I understand that maybe they thought it was less important or something, but why agree in the first place then? And I'm not just talking about the model here, the wardrobe stylist apparent MADE three dresses just for this shoot and still failed to show up or call. Oct 13 14 07:42 am Link Arielle Williams wrote: First, rating systems aren't reliable. I can't tell you how many time I've been on sites like Amazon checking out reviews and the 1 star and 2 star reviews weren't about the product at all but were instead about the reviewer not properly reading the description of the item or something equally asinine. Can you imagine what a rating system on this site would look like? I can tell you now it'd be a huge mess when you add in ego etc. Oct 13 14 09:26 am Link There is no rating system because there is no way to verify any of the information people would put in the system. A model could quote a rate higher than a photographer was willing to pay and the photographer might respond by telling everyone she was a flake. Oct 13 14 09:35 am Link Images by MR wrote: Priceless and precious words of wisdom from a tenured talent... Oct 13 14 11:08 am Link That's why I never hire a MUA when working with independent internet models. I feel the risk of the shoot falling through is just too great. If it's just me, the negative consequence of a model not showing isn't that great, but I don't want to hire a MUA or waste their day on a shoot that never happens. Oct 13 14 12:14 pm Link ... a few of us have, "NOT RECOMMENDED TO SHOOT WITH" lists. (both for Photographers and Models) The photographers and models that I know and respect, share their lists too so, 'No-Show models, and Creepy Photographers' have an increasingly difficult time working with anyone. I wish we all did that. my 2 cents Oct 13 14 01:00 pm Link Wow. First of all I can only imagine what you must have felt like trying to find a plan B and then C. I can only say for me I have been lucky. Very few times has this happened to me. Maybe because I have been doing this forever and my resume and reputation shows it. I have a group of close business friends that I can reach out to in a flash that are always willing to jump in the last second. Try building a good network in the future just in case it happens again. One thing is for sure, the people that showed for your shoot will be great allies in the future. Your ordeal and how you handled it shows your professionalism and character. I truly hope you got some great shots in the end. R- Oct 14 14 09:02 am Link Arielle Williams wrote: The site's theory is that there are 2-sides to every story. That & they're in the business of pointing people in the direction of each other, they do not believe in enforcing or making sure shoot terms are adhered to. Oct 14 14 09:13 am Link rick lesser wrote: Thanks, Rick. Me and the photographer did actually discuss making some sort of list or group somewhere of people who had good recommendations or who we'd worked with together in the past so we'd have people to reach out to in these situations. Farenell Photography wrote: That does make sense. I suppose a rating system would always be a bit skewed by people making assumptions or misunderstandings. Oct 14 14 02:41 pm Link Arielle Williams wrote: I've answered your request with a rating site...It's not been marketed yet because we still have some improvements and bugs... But rate away Oct 15 14 11:52 pm Link I have been involved in three attempts of put together shoots involving a team. They have all fallen apart because first one person would drop out and be replaced, then another person would drop out and be replaced, and on and on. Trying to get that many people together on a TF basis just doesn't seem to work. Oct 16 14 12:25 am Link Mary, thanks for creating Rate The Crew. Just signed up. But can't figure out how to add to my profile? I see a few others have a picture with a bio line. FAQ isn't up yet so can't look there. Tried to email question there the site however having trouble with my out going mail server Ugh... Anyway, thanks again for the site. R- Oct 16 14 12:57 pm Link This is why I typically only work with reputable people whenever possible. Obviously I realize that a lot of this is out of your control which is such a pain in the butt. Agency models do flake too contrary to common misconceptions. I guess the best advice I can give is to always have a backup model if you can. Oct 17 14 06:56 am Link Arielle Williams wrote: I have a suspicion such a rating system would get corrupted by a "hot or not" mentality where people would give ratings based more on looks than on professionalism. Oct 30 14 10:56 pm Link Arielle Williams wrote: an answer to this www.ratethecrew.com it just went live. The first rating site for the industry (that I know of) There will be no corruption on this site....I have an experienced crew on this Nov 02 14 10:55 pm Link Nov 02 14 11:09 pm Link rick lesser wrote: Rick, please try again...I think the bugs are out now. This site is my answer to the "no outing" rules on most sites.... I believe in "outing" as part of free speech and I think information is power.. We need to use it. We need to be protected from people that abuse us in the industry...we need to keep people honest...Period. Just like Yelp, you will need to read between the line at times but when you see the same issue with the same people over and over again you need to proceed with caution. Nov 02 14 11:19 pm Link my main focus is schools. Many schools are scamming wannabe artists and this has been a pet peeve of mine for years. I want to encourage anyone that's been mislead by makeup schools to report it. People in this industry live in fear of the "black list" and that needs to stop....transparency is what we need now as an industry. Nov 02 14 11:34 pm Link Arielle Williams wrote: rick lesser wrote: Thanks, Rick. Me and the photographer did actually discuss making some sort of list or group somewhere of people who had good recommendations or who we'd worked with together in the past so we'd have people to reach out to in these situations. Arielle, I hope you return to this thread. Forget trying to book serious TF or even paid models from this site. Take your book and go to real world modeling agencies. Ask to test with their models. You won't have to pay. You will get more models then you can handle but best is that they will usually be reliable. You may not get to work with the larger agency models but their are a lot of boutique agencies around. Check out acting schools and fashion shows. While the photographer should be providing new faces its often easier for MUA, stylists and designers to find willing good talent. Nov 02 14 11:53 pm Link Rating would not work because people can say what ever they want without proof. Also all rating systems get abused by false ratings or people just being assholes. If you have ever sold anything on Amazon or Ebay you'll know what I mean. People can lie and then the stupid site won't even remove a false statement in a review. We do not need that on here. Nov 03 14 12:25 am Link Thanks. This is way overdue. I've never figured out how the desperately helpless, see above post, rationalize that doing nothing is the best course when a real problem is identified. Will reviews be allowed only on site members, or also on non-site members? Will people who have been reviewed be notified? Thanks again !!! Nov 03 14 02:04 am Link Tony Lawrence wrote: I actually didn't know you could ask to test with their models without being booked by them. That's definitely something to look into, thanks! Nov 04 14 07:54 am Link Can happen even with agency talent too. I've had "We meet at location X" issues before where everyone involved was in some different area, even though they told me to go "Here" and they were over "There." Might be a form of MM "Friendly Fire" (i.e. Location mistakes.) at times. I've put into emails as "Go half mile further than last time out there." and they go to the same original site too and then they wonder where I am. Stuff happens on location, even with the GPS co-ordinates posted. Google Earth doesn't spot too well at times in their addresses and can miss by several blocks. The "No shows" are another matter. May as well give up on those. Just keep a "Good Ones" folder and a "Bad Ones" folder and move on. Nov 04 14 10:53 am Link Arielle Williams wrote: While its always best to be part of a team where the photographer is testing models. You should approach local agencies to see if they have talent to work with. Nov 04 14 11:26 am Link in reply to the questions about people being dishonest on Rate the Crew.... It's like yelp for the industry, we will check the validity of claims as best we can. You have to be a member to post, can't do it anonymously. I think this site may frighten some people but I personally think we need a place to warn others of bad behavior in the industry and good. That my opinion and that's why I created the site...People that agree can go there... We'll start our marketing push in January 2015...we are still working on parts of the site. People can not longer complain about the "no outing" rules other sites have, so this is an answer for those people. I've been in this business a very long time..Before the internet was available in homes... I've been on message boards since that time and I know as well as anyone does when someones not being honest and the benefit of the doubt doesn't go to the accuser. The team that will be monitoring this are industry vets who are known for their wisdom and judgment... Will there be people that abuse the system? yes, just like Yelp there will be a few that get through over time but people can read between the lines.... When you have 8 happy people and 1 unhappy, well, we all know the 1 unhappy should probably be ignored... When you have 8 unhappy and 1 happy, we all know the 1 happy person is probably a friend or family member. Comments made by anyone NOT in the industry or a client in the industry will not be able to do any commenting or rating at all. Nov 09 14 11:22 am Link Rate the Crew looks useful and I will sign up at least to check it out. The problem is more complicated than merely finding people who can fulfill commitments they make expressly with other members. There is a lot of failure by people to follow through with communication they initiate. This is true everywhere, all over the worldwide web, and not only on Model Mayhem. It's a problem when members issue casting calls but don't respond to inquiries from other members. If you can issue a call publicly for help on projects, whether paid or for trade, then you can follow up EVERY reply to your call. If you get too many replies to cope with the volume, then delete your casting call. If you find the people you need then say so, and then delete the casting call. If for whatever reason you don't want to continue communicating with particular members then don't just leave them hanging. Terminate the exchange politely. It's easy to get an impression on Model Mayhem that members are replying only to responding members they want to work with, and they are blowing off all the others without any reply. That is a serious courtesy problem. Anybody who is guilty of doing this should understand they are contributing to a general lack of professionalism and it limits opportunities for everybody. I joined Model Mayhem because I need to find people who are interested in collaborating and networking so we can better ourselves and pursue these professions we obviously enjoy. But so far it's been too much like online dating. We get replies from a fraction of the people we contact, and even then it's a guessing game whether they are really interested. Maybe it's okay for things to work like that at dating websites, but it should be much different here. Nov 09 14 02:07 pm Link Arielle Williams wrote: Hey! Don't you still owe me $50? Pay up!!! Blimey Studios wrote: Well, posting a "Not Recommended" list is not very effective, IMHO -- how do people know to look at your profile to read your list, and why should they take the word of a stranger? The part I like is the part where you say "The photographers and models that I know and respect, share their lists" -- that is effective. But just putting a public list together on a profile -- that gives people a bad impression of the profile owner & not necessarily of the people on the list. Nov 09 14 02:20 pm Link Trust me... I have figured out all this issues in advance. I have been thinking about the logistics for years and that's why it took me so long to get this done. It won't be fool proof, nothing is but it's a resource. It was just a matter of time before someone built a rating site...I figured it might as well be someone who understands the business, the good bad and the Ugly, and I do. People by the way can answer to poor reviews, just like they do on yelp...it's not one sided. If I see abuse at all the person will be gone in seconds. This really is for the commercial and fashion industry and so there should be no stories of escorts gone bad, nothing of that sort will be allowed... BECAUSE my end user are commercial and editorial clients. Period. We don't have a film commission in San Diego anymore and so I get calls all the time about whose a good photographer for this job...Good model? good stylist etc. Since our film commission closed I feel like I'm fielding a lot of the calls they should be getting. This is a resource for clients coming to shoot in my area...I just made the decision to stretch it further outside San Diego (it wasn't that much extra work) I debated on ratethecrew or checkthecrew I pondered the rating for months... I went ahead and added it to the site because right now there is nothing like it that I know of. This isn't an answer to MM issues at all... it's really a different crowd entirely but I thought I would mention it here. Nov 09 14 02:50 pm Link one more thing I should let people know... A group of people in the industry were looking for investors to build a site like this... Mine was half way done and I had been sitting on it for awhile. When I heard this other group was serious and contacting investors it lit a fire under me to finish it faster then I wanted to. It needs some fine tuning for sure but I'll work the kinks out. Nov 09 14 03:16 pm Link Avoid working with noobs. Hire professionals. Nov 09 14 03:20 pm Link Arielle Williams wrote: I have a simple explanation for the lack of a rating system: Arielle Williams wrote: If Model Mayhem were an agency, there would a high membership cancellation rate, and new memberships would take far longer to established themselves because of reluctance from established members that are avoiding the "noobs." Nov 09 14 03:24 pm Link Arielle Williams wrote: I agree with you on that. Nov 12 14 01:18 pm Link |
