Forums > Digital Art and Retouching > Dodge & Burn : Help Layers. What do you use?

Retoucher

KSuckra

Posts: 72

Memphis, Tennessee, US

I find that everyone uses different help layers when Dodging & Burning.what's yours? I think help layers are just as important and the size brush you use - The flow/opacity - and how you spend your time doing it. Here's mine.  Open to suggestions. Because I'm always willing to try new techniques.

currently I use a channel mixer (monochrome checked) adjusting along the way to see blotchy areas. If i need to have a bit more contrast, I'll add a curve and clip it to the channel.

https://33.media.tumblr.com/813b21b4baec6e944d6b082ba7b5a672/tumblr_nhvc3i7V2F1qe6dleo1_1280.png

Jan 08 15 09:21 am Link

Photographer

Peter Yip Photography

Posts: 78

London, England, United Kingdom

I normally make a black & white adjustment, then add a curve adjustment on top (no adjustment on actual curve, multiply blend mode)

if it need to be more contrast, I just duplicate the curve layer, or adjust layer opacity for less effect.

Jan 08 15 11:10 am Link

Retoucher

KSuckra

Posts: 72

Memphis, Tennessee, US

Peter Yip Photography wrote:
I normally make a black & white adjustment, then add a curve adjustment on top (no adjustment on actual curve, multiply blend mode)

if it need to be more contrast, I just duplicate the curve layer, or adjust layer opacity for less effect.

do you adjust any levels within the black and white? whenever i use a black and white adjustment, it can misdirect me a little to think that an area needs more dodge (or vice versa) than it needs

Jan 08 15 11:39 am Link

Photographer

A. I. Studios

Posts: 126

Jersey City, New Jersey, US

Lee Varis use only your method among other top of the line retouchers.They all do, some might use other variation on it, still, a BW layer on top.

The other useful helper layers I found, are (not for D&B but overall):

- Solid RED in Hue mode to find over and under saturated colors.

- Solid RED in Luminosity to find if you have the correct hue.

Jan 08 15 11:48 am Link

Retoucher

KSuckra

Posts: 72

Memphis, Tennessee, US

A. I. Studios wrote:
Lee Varis use only your method among other top of the line retouchers.They all do, some might use other variation on it, still, a BW layer on top.

The other useful helper layers I found, are (not for D&B but overall):

- Solid RED in Hue mode to find over and under saturated colors.

- Solid RED in Luminosity to find if you have the correct hue.

I just tried that with the Hue and i definitely noticed what i didn't before. That's awesome
https://38.media.tumblr.com/7df3314a3a1defff571d25a58368c41b/tumblr_nhvm7tIxNA1qe6dleo1_1280.png

Jan 08 15 12:59 pm Link

Retoucher

Cole Bettelyoun

Posts: 635

Martin, South Dakota, US

I just use two black layers, the bottom set to color mode and the top set to overlay. After i fix what i see then i switch the top layer to soft light then fix the issues, after that i just turn it off and finish the dnb. I also have two layers to see the negative to correct the lighter areas.

Here is the action if anyone wants it.

http://we.tl/rWUlSc9oPa

Jan 08 15 01:51 pm Link

Photographer

J O H N A L L A N

Posts: 12221

Los Angeles, California, US

A. I. Studios wrote:
- Solid RED in Luminosity to find if you have the correct hue.

Could you expand on this a bit please - it sounds like you're saying that this is a "help layer" for matching skin tones. If that is what you're saying - I would love to hear more, because subtle skin color matching is difficult with the eye (even with info pallet).

@OP - I use two curve layers for d&b with a b/w help layer. I have an action that quickly creates it on a new image.

Jan 08 15 03:28 pm Link

Retoucher

The Invisible Touch

Posts: 862

Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain

In my opinion the best method to use is a desaturated Hue/saturation layer and curves to adjust.. you can also turn this curve to Multiply to give you a deeper contrast.

Stay away from using channel mixer or Black and white adjustments as this changes the original luminosity/tone composition and will give you a bad result.

Jan 08 15 04:19 pm Link

Retoucher

KSuckra

Posts: 72

Memphis, Tennessee, US

Bettelyoun wrote:
I just use two black layers, the bottom set to color mode and the top set to overlay. After i fix what i see then i switch the top layer to soft light then fix the issues, after that i just turn it off and finish the dnb. I also have two layers to see the negative to correct the lighter areas.

Here is the action if anyone wants it.

http://we.tl/rWUlSc9oPa

you're always my lifesave <3

Jan 08 15 04:44 pm Link

Retoucher

KSuckra

Posts: 72

Memphis, Tennessee, US

The Invisible Touch wrote:
In my opinion the best method to use is a desaturated Hue/saturation layer and curves to adjust.. you can also turn this curve to Multiply to give you a deeper contrast.

Stay away from using channel mixer or Black and white adjustments as this changes the original luminosity/tone composition and will give you a bad result.

When using the Hue/saturation, do you lower the saturation inside the adjustment itself or another way?

Jan 08 15 04:46 pm Link

Retoucher

KSuckra

Posts: 72

Memphis, Tennessee, US

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:

Could you expand on this a bit please - it sounds like you're saying that this is a "help layer" for matching skin tones. If that is what you're saying - I would love to hear more, because subtle skin color matching is difficult with the eye (even with info pallet).

@OP - I use two curve layers for d&b with a b/w help layer. I have an action that quickly creates it on a new image.

what does your help layer contain?

Jan 08 15 04:47 pm Link

Retoucher

The Invisible Touch

Posts: 862

Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain

KSuckra wrote:
When using the Hue/saturation, do you lower the saturation inside the adjustment itself or another way?

Just lower it directly from the master.. affecting all colours to become a black and white image, without touching anything else.

Jan 08 15 04:53 pm Link

Photographer

J O H N A L L A N

Posts: 12221

Los Angeles, California, US

KSuckra wrote:

what does your help layer contain?

It contains a brightness/contrast layer with a bump in contast and a BW adjustment layer with a custom bw conversion on the various colors.

I thought you were suggesting something else, like a skin-color matching "help layer", not a b&w layer group for d&b, but something that helped the visualization process of matching skin tones in different areas.

Jan 08 15 07:10 pm Link

Retoucher

KSuckra

Posts: 72

Memphis, Tennessee, US

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:

It contains a brightness/contrast layer with a bump in contast and a BW adjustment layer with a custom bw conversion on the various colors.

I thought you were suggesting something else, like a skin-color matching "help layer", not a b&w layer group for d&b, but something that helped the visualization process of matching skin tones in different areas.

I mean everything actually. Anything that helps you notice what the naked eye wouldn't. Ive also used solar curves for chin areas. The only difficult part about that is you have to  be really careful to not mix up the hot parts of the skin with the cool as they change with the curve..if that makes sense. Thanks for the info. I want to try a lot of different ways. I feel that in order to find what really works, You have to experiments. I'm on a mission to be a better D&B artist smile

Jan 08 15 09:25 pm Link

Retoucher

Another Layer

Posts: 16

London, England, United Kingdom

This is how i do it if im in on a deadline, saves a lot of time and its non-destructive. great for working with smart objects too.

Create a new layer. Go to Edit > Fill. Select 50% grey from the drop down menu then click OK. Change the blending mode to Overlay (experiment with other blending modes like Soft Light, Hard Light, etc.). Dodge and burn on this grey layer.

smile

Jan 09 15 04:50 am Link

Photographer

Peter Yip Photography

Posts: 78

London, England, United Kingdom

KSuckra wrote:
do you adjust any levels within the black and white? whenever i use a black and white adjustment, it can misdirect me a little to think that an area needs more dodge (or vice versa) than it needs

I dont really do anything to the B&W layer, I change the opacity of the multiple curve layer instead.

Jan 09 15 08:07 am Link

Photographer

A. I. Studios

Posts: 126

Jersey City, New Jersey, US

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:

Could you expand on this a bit please - it sounds like you're saying that this is a "help layer" for matching skin tones. If that is what you're saying - I would love to hear more, because subtle skin color matching is difficult with the eye (even with info pallet).

@OP - I use two curve layers for d&b with a b/w help layer. I have an action that quickly creates it on a new image.

You got this right. it is used mainly to match color tones, be it skin or otherwise, the two main uses are to match skin tone, say, if you are removing tan lines. The other one is in composition where you are pulling various elements shot under various conditions. Commonly used for advertising, where you find a team of some game players shot under various conditions due to scheduling or availability, then it is our job to make it look as tho they all got together for the shoot. Not just for skin tone, but also for clothing and specially uniforms.

In other words, you want to have the sam color tone whenever it shows within the context.

Jan 11 15 01:22 am Link

Retoucher

D A N

Posts: 124

Jacksonville, Florida, US

The Invisible Touch wrote:
In my opinion the best method to use is a desaturated Hue/saturation layer and curves to adjust.. you can also turn this curve to Multiply to give you a deeper contrast.

Stay away from using channel mixer or Black and white adjustments as this changes the original luminosity/tone composition and will give you a bad result.

Actually that's not quite right, using a hue/saturation layer and lowering the saturation will effectively remove the luminosity. Now if you change the blend mode to color then it restores the luminosity. Another way is to use a black layer or gray layer in color mode, same thing. Either one of those will recreate the .30 .58 .12 (approximately)

The Invisible Touch wrote:
Just lower it directly from the master.. affecting all colours to become a black and white image, without touching anything else.

It actually removes the luminosity and makes the image less what the eye perceives, in terms of luminosity.  You know what, it almost doesn't matter what you use (except for b&w layer and pull the red or yellow) since the tones for skin barely will change based on luminosity.

Jan 14 15 03:37 pm Link

Retoucher

The Invisible Touch

Posts: 862

Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain

D A N wrote:

Actually that's not quite right, using a hue/saturation layer and lowering the saturation will effectively remove the luminosity. Now if you change the blend mode to color then it restores the luminosity. Another way is to use a black layer or gray layer in color mode, same thing. Either one of those will recreate the .30 .58 .12 (approximately)


It actually removes the luminosity and makes the image less what the eye perceives, in terms of luminosity.  You know what, it almost doesn't matter what you use (except for b&w layer and pull the red or yellow) since the tones for skin barely will change based on luminosity.

To both of your statements... that's just simply not true!! Hue/Saturation if you lower the saturation it only affects... saturation not luminosity my friend.. get your facts right.

Jan 15 15 02:09 am Link

Retoucher

D A N

Posts: 124

Jacksonville, Florida, US

The Invisible Touch wrote:
To both of your statements... that's just simply not true!! Hue/Saturation if you lower the saturation it only affects... saturation not luminosity my friend.. get your facts right.

I think it's the other way around Javi wink I'll show you smile

Let's take this color circle as an example.

https://s17.postimg.org/unyt895cf/Hue_Sat_Luma_Circle_24.jpg

You can save it and play along with it.

If we just lower the saturation of it we get this
https://s17.postimg.org/430vqfscv/huesatu.jpg
See? no luminosity at all. That's the same thing that Image - Adjustments - Desaturate does.

If you change the blending mode to color then the luminosity is restored and it is the exact same thing as a black, white, gray solid color layer or the custom channel mixer with the values I mentioned before.
https://s10.postimg.org/qrs9xpvl5/hue_sat_color.jpg

Since I'm already doing this here's what a regular black and white adjustment layer does.
https://s8.postimg.org/6w74sxirp/regularbw.jpg

It's a very sound advice to never use the black and white adjustment layer and move the sliders to "maximize blemishes" like you mentioned earlier. What you do with that is that you stop seeing what the image actually looks like and create more problems for yourself. Nobody should really recommend the use of that.
https://s17.postimg.org/gelekymof/custom_bw_adj.jpg

Here's a custom channel mixer monochrome with values that recreate how the human eye sees luminosity.
https://s14.postimg.org/aqsdsadkh/custom_bw.jpg

A black solid color layer set to color blending mode gives you the exact luminosity values as the custom channel mixer. I'm sure you know why by now.
https://s17.postimg.org/hoj800ggf/solidlayer.jpg

The same will happen with a white color layer or a gray color layer but I got tired of creating screen captures and you get the point and those are the facts.

Jan 15 15 10:09 am Link

Retoucher

a k mac

Posts: 476

London, England, United Kingdom

Dan - what you have demonstrated is really good. But I'm not surprised that Javi corrected your earlier statement where you say that the Saturation slider 'removes the luminosity' which it patently doesn't. I now understand that you were referring to the 'perceptual' luminosity of the hues.

Jan 15 15 10:22 am Link

Retoucher

D A N

Posts: 124

Jacksonville, Florida, US

I never heard of perceptual luminosity. Would you mind explaining that to me a bit more? I couldn't find information about it.
How I understand it is how I explained it.
https://s22.postimg.org/xdcy1154h/huesat.jpg
Where if the colors have the same L* value then they will appear the same. If you use a different method of converting then the luminosity values of the hues are taking into consideration. So the image does change when you use Hue/Saturation layer and lower the saturation slider. I don't understand how I'm wrong then.

I personally don't think it matters that much how you convert to b&w for your help layer, just as long as you don't just the red or yellow sliders. Skin tones don't change as much as other colors, like blue or green.
What matters is what you use to create contrast to help you see where the problems are that you need to fix.
Here's an example from Javi (hope you don't mind tongue I needed an image with yellow and blue)

I did the four different b&w conversions. Anybody can guess which one is which?
https://s4.postimg.org/d1yxux5wt/4fba53cfd97f9_m.jpg

Jan 15 15 11:12 am Link

Retoucher

a k mac

Posts: 476

London, England, United Kingdom

The term perceptual refers to perceived brightness. The human eye is most sensitive to Green, less to Red and least sensitive to Blue. So you can have equal numeric values for each colour but the eye perceives them to be of different brightness.
When colour is converted to Grey via a numerical calculation, equal values of red, blue and green will all appear as the same value of grey. But with the perceptual calculation, the bias of the human eye is taken into account, hence the difference in results when doing a Desaturate command compared to converting to Greyscale, or using the Color Mode.

PS I'm not using the word 'perceptual' in any technical sense (Perceptual v Relative Colorimetric etc) -but simply in its literal sense of 'as perceived' (by the eye)

Jan 15 15 12:04 pm Link

Retoucher

D A N

Posts: 124

Jacksonville, Florida, US

Got it, thank you for explaining it smile

Jan 15 15 01:09 pm Link

Retoucher

The Invisible Touch

Posts: 862

Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain

D A N wrote:
It actually removes the luminosity and makes the image less what the eye perceives, in terms of luminosity.  You know what, it almost doesn't matter what you use (except for b&w layer and pull the red or yellow) since the tones for skin barely will change based on luminosity.

DAN your example of colour wheel is really good and I can see what you mean but as you suggested above, luminosity barely will change/affect skin tones. D&B is a technique that could be used for many things but is most commonly used for skin... So I stand on what I said... Hue/Saturation in my opinion is a really good way to show the imperfections on skin much better than black and white layers, etc... at the end of the day, if you change the blending mode to colour on a hue/saturation layer it only adds a bit of contrast to bring back the luminosity which in my opinion doesn't affect the technique.

Jan 16 15 02:05 am Link