D A N I wrote:

How does that explain older photographers flaking, ignoring emails, canceling at the last second, being complete dicks for no other reason than to attempt to make theirs grow...

Age doesn't equal mature.

Dementia.

John Jebbia wrote:
Something I've done is started a weekly local models/photographers meetup social hour. it's a good way to get an idea who's serious and who's not. I'm noticing that certain local people (models and photographers) consistently RSVP and don't show up. I'm extremely unlikely to consider any of these people for any important gigs.

Yeah, even if they show up to the meetup that doesn't mean jack squat and you know it

Portico Photography wrote:
The deal is $60 for one hour of time, headshot work only. I will also give you three shots, retouched, for your port.

There are too many other photographers out there who will offer the same or better deal, with more time, more photos including full length, and more retouching, as now everyone has an excellent digital camera, and their photos will look great.   

Welcome to the Free Market.  Yes, competition in the photography world is tough.

Weldphoto wrote:
The ideas for not having a rating system here are bullshit. If Trip Advisors can post very negative and positive reviews about a major chain hotel, little B&B or mega resort then this little site surly can.

Is that a typo or a Freudian slip? 

How Trip Advisors Is Different From Model Mayhem:
...  Trip Advisors makes a profit.
...  Trip Advisors can keep lawyers on retainer.
...  Trip Advisors is prepared for occasional (frequent?) civil disputes.
...  Trip Advisors have a staff who can participate in the resolution of grievances.
...  The bad reviews on Trip Advisors are directed against businesses and not individuals.
...  When someone receives a bad review on Trip Advisors, they can't post a bad review in retaliation.

Ruben Sanchez wrote:
There are too many other photographers out there who will offer the same or better deal, with more time, more photos including full length, and more retouching, as now everyone has an excellent digital camera, and their photos will look great.   

Welcome to the Free Market.  Yes, competition in the photography world is tough.

ontherocks wrote:
i don't personally know any photographers who get paid by models. you might have more luck with actors.

for our portrait business, no-shows pretty much stopped after we started requiring a $20 upfront payment (plus MUA fee if applicable).

for headshots about the best we could do was $99 (for one retouched image). when we raised our rate beyond that we started losing deals. it's hard to compete with the mall place that does an adequate job for $75 or the newbies who might even do it for free.

Maybe I'm the one who's confused here but I read the OP to mean that he was paying the models $60 for one hour of work.

ontherocks wrote:
i don't personally know any photographers who get paid by models. you might have more luck with actors.

I get frequently hired by models to either develop their portfolios or to upgrade them for the market I am in.

I also work with some agencies who send me models for exactly that purpose, but it used to be that the agencies paid, now the model has to pay out of her own pocket, and I usually give an extra break.

... and yeah... I got hired by actors as well.

Leo Howard wrote:

Yeah, even if they show up to the meetup that doesn't mean jack squat and you know it

One can judge a person's personality when you meet them in person.

Carney Malone wrote:
I have a similar problem. I gave a model a travel advance to purchase a round-trip ticket from LA to NYC to work with me sometime in early February. Now she refuses to work with me or refund the advance.

After she purchased her tickets with the funds I sent via PayPal we had a problem settling on her hourly rate. Two days later I sent her an email agreeing to her rate. She wrote back stating that in the interim she became completely booked and did not mention returning the advance. (Unlikely for NYC since she posted a rate of $125/hr,, appeared in no major publications and had no replies to her travel notice. I know a bit about the NYC model business since most of my models come from NYC and we always discuss the modeling business. I also know several excellent traveling models who are struggling to find bookings.) I pointed this out to her that becoming completely booked in two days was impossible. I received an inadequate reply.

I am now out of the cost of a round-trip ticket from Los Angeles to NYC and will not have a shoot.

So much for one model meeting her commitments.

So much for the legend of the Vaunted "Traveling Model"

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:

So much for the legend of the Vaunted "Traveling Model"

Like Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster their legend lives on.   Carney's story isn't all that rare.   One of our members wrote about a model he flew in to his city who ditched him at the airport.   Another got some goofs cash and told him she had to give it to her mom and left.   I sent a Texas model gas money... She never drove out.   The stories are there but photographers are often too embarrassed to talk about them.   A former NY model who was always yapping about hire a pro was known to take deposits and not show.     Once a photographer she burned called her publicly here and she responded with her usual humor.   I remember a traveling art nude model told me my shoot was canceled because she hooked up a better gig.   My budget was only $50.00 per hour.   

At least she let me know well in advanced.   A Chicago model on Facebook who to be frank is pretty average was asked how she booked so much work.   She replied, I show up.   When sites like OMP and later this one started there was a belief they could challenge agencies in that companies could save money with unsigned talent.   In fact there are stunning women on this site.   Years later and the agencies are still thriving.

Keith Moody wrote:
That's why I just shoot college sports these days.  Both teams always show up.

Well put!

But what if the score in a football game is 56-0?

It seems only one team showed up.

WIP wrote:
There is a forum post where a photographer stated he'd only be shooting older models and this maybe the issue with the new influx and generation of younger models who have no self respect nor respect for anyone else.

Welcome to a new world of I can't be bothered.

+1

I can only speak for myself, but aiming at a more "mature" age group has proven to work for me.. although I do have 2-3 acquaintances in the 21-23 age group that have been pretty consistent thus far. I think it all comes down to morals, and apparently I come off as an asshole for displaying mine.. I'll just have to bare that cross.

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:

So much for the legend of the Vaunted "Traveling Model"

There are some good ones, a FEW!

Then there are the ones who want a deposit from YOU!

When they get to town it's another story, one that goes to the tune of: "who will pay the most for this time slot." That decision is made on the spur of the moment.

BTW if they stand you up, there is no return of the deposit, or refund on the cost of the plane ticket.

Also, Western Union, Paypal, and the Airlines will not return your money. No matter how Blatant the Fraud.

There is also the ones who show up, then spend all their time and attention, texting to make sure that they make their next appointment. In that case, forget your "Concept," just Hurry Up. They have to leave on TIME!

It's a case of some ruining it for the rest. I used to do it all the time, plane tickets and Paypal both. Not anymore.

The F-Stop wrote:
its a reflection of the quality that start accounts. asking for paid assignments with 4 nude selfies... seems experianced professioals are rare.

Very true! Sadly very true.

But don't forget the terrible photographers who charge models for producing rotten images.

Perhaps we need a code of ethics for the members of this site.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
A Chicago model on Facebook who to be frank is pretty average was asked how she booked so much work.   She replied, I show up..

This is the reason I try booking local models before traveling models.  If I want to shoot a certain traveling model, I wait until we shoot before paying her.  It's that simple!

The F-Stop wrote:
its a reflection of the quality that start accounts. asking for paid assignments with 4 nude selfies... seems experianced professioals are rare.

Carney Malone wrote:
But don't forget the terrible photographers who charge models for producing rotten images.

For this reason, I like that Critique thread where the OP evaluated people's ports, and evaluated the experience of the user and whether or not they should be paid for their work.

Carney Malone wrote:

Very true! Sadly very true.

But don't forget the terrible photographers who charge models for producing rotten images.

Perhaps we need a code of ethics for the members of this site.

i dont charge for my rotten images! hahahaha

yeah code of ethics... but do we want more vague rules?

id like to see a flake list or a rating system or a court to hear both sides, so those people can be brought to justice. 

want greener grass?... pull the weeds!

.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
Here are the reasons why.  (Please note there are exceptions, but depressingly very few)

I wonder whether models have their own similar lists.

exartica wrote:
1.  They often treat photographers as wallets and not artists.

All employees treat their employers like wallets and not artists.  Typically, in these "art photography" situations:
...  The concept is the photographer's,
...  The copyright belongs to the photographer,
...  Any artistic contribution made by the model will be claimed by the photographer, because
     the photographer retains the exclusive copyright,
...  Only the photographer can profit from the image,
...  The photographer, and not the model, chooses which images to edit,
...  The photographer chooses how too edit the image,
...  The photographer selects the images (if any) to be shared with the model,
...  The photographer typically limits the size & bpi of any shared image,
...  The photographer's watermark is plastered over the image,
...  There typically is nothing on the image identifying the model,
...  and so forth.

In my opinion, it is extremely arrogant to expect a model to have the same enthusiasm for the project as the photographer.

Just how should a model treat an "artist"?  So what, exactly, is in it for the models?

exartica wrote:
1b).  Then they demand usage agreements because even though you paid them.  (There have been a number of forums where traveling models have admitted to this)

What's the problem here?  A model has the absolute right to ask for whatever compensation she wants, and a photographer has the absolute right to accept, decline, or make a counter offer.  Why do photographers get offended if/when a model asks for usage rights?  If you don't want to grant such rights, just say "no".  No need to get your panties in a twist.

exartica wrote:
2.  They have a set number of poses that they use with everybody.  Works ok with new photographers building a port, but not for someone try to shoot a diferent style or creative poses they can not do, because they are locked into a genre like glamour instead of art.   ...   and "And btw 95% of my shoots are trade."

So, 95% of your shoots are trade, which implies to me that you are working with the least experienced models, the ones who cannot earn revenue with their modeling skills.  Yet, you hold these less experienced models to a skill level more appropriate for the seasoned professionals?  Doesn't seem right to me.

exartica wrote:
3.  They sometime come to the shoots over tired from too many shoots, lack energy.

Hire the models who show up rested and/or have high energy.

exartica wrote:
4.  They sometime come to the shoot not prepared, hair make up and nails

Sometimes they don't have a clear idea of what is expected of them upon arrival. 

exartica wrote:
I guess I could go on.  ...  I guess everyone has to find their way. 

I think casting calls are worthless as is reference checking and especially this  verified credit which was created for traveling models, so they can determine the guys who pay.

You are welcome (indeed, you are challenged) to do what you need to do to be successful.  You don't have to pay models if you don't want to.  But there's nothing wrong with models getting paid.  Speaking from my experience, successful models, especially the traveling kind, are skilled, beautiful, and fun and are often well worth their fees.  I figure...
...  If it's a hobby, it's like most hobbies -- they cost money.
...  If it is a business, then if you are getting paid, then why aren't your team members getting paid?
Traveling models are more dependent on their income to pay for their trip, and are possibly more likely to show up, prepared, and give better value for their fees.

exartica wrote:
But that is just me.  For all the photographers who swear by those tools .... all the best.

Ditto.


Look.  In recent weeks, other members have made statements like...
...  All it takes to be a model is good genes,
...  There is no skill in posing,
...  "95% of the MM models are virtually worthless".

I gotta believe that these not empathetic attitudes come through when communicating with models, and models being sensitive human beings might be more prone to flake on a-hole photographers.

Tony From Syracuse wrote:
I had only one no show in like 30 different models.  I pay for my shoots so I was actually surprised.

It's not the money, that's a myth.

Flakes will be flakes, no matter what.

Carney Malone wrote:

Very true! Sadly very true.

But don't forget the terrible photographers who charge models for producing rotten images.

Perhaps we need a code of ethics for the members of this site.

Very Few models will pay for images good or bad

Tony From Syracuse wrote:
that charts freakin hilarious whoever did that diod an awesome job

Courtesy Pat Yuen. He did it at least five years ago as this is obviously not a new problem on MM!  hahahhah

Faces Photography wrote:
Which brings me to my question. Why don't they have a system here whereby we can "rate" our experience (or lack thereof) with another member of the community.

I'd love a rating system implimented into MM it would certainly weed out all the unprofessional acting people in this place.

If there was a system in place then models, photographers and HMUA's would know if that person was reliable or not before working with them.

Rebel Lens Photography wrote:

I'd love a rating system implimented into MM it would certainly weed out all the unprofessional acting people in this place.

If there was a system in place then models, photographers and HMUA's would know if that person was reliable or not before working with them.

e

A rating system is a good idea but would require an immense amount of work.

What about an "Approved Models and Photographers" list to reward good behavior?

It avoids much of the nastiness which results from a "Bad Models and Photographers" list.