|
Forums >
Photography Talk >
Ego, held in check.
It's obvious to anyone who's been in this business for awhile that a certain amount of ego is a necessary attribute. Who would even try to make their way in a "creative field" if they didn't have a strong sense of self? However, after looking at yet another couple of rounds of self-aggrandizing "ain't I the shit!" threads I'm wondering about the point where unchecked ego becomes detrimental. Where is that boundary where healthy self confidence becomes narcissism? What does such pretentiousness do to ones ability to grow as a person, a craftsman, or as an artist? Not to mention how difficult it is to take such an individual seriously, despite their self-serious nature! At the other end of the spectrum, at what point is humility a virtue as opposed to being a disadvantage? Does the adage "Nice guys finish last" apply to photography? In the vein of engaging Model Mayhem deliberations of days gone by, please discuss. May 04 15 02:18 pm Link I don't know that there is any connection between 'ego' and artistic interest, or even ego and artistic accomplishment. Yes, for anyone to push their product into the spotlight takes some ego, so to be 'known' may require some pushy behavior. I've been away from any psych textbooks for awhile so I'm sure someone can correct my terminology. Most photographers need to have some 'vision' which comes from within and they need to have some confidence in their own view. Give someone a full cup of skill and talent but no ego/vision/drive, and they'll still need a 'customer' with their own vision to get any result. Most customers want a photographer with skill, talent and vision, someone who produces a certain style. Of course most photographers can produce images in several styles, but showing several styles isn't necessarily a benefit. Market forces seem to drive people into a niche. The people who get noticed and succeed have more than average ego, and that applies in any industry. I don't find that in the slightest bit surprising or unexpected. There are plenty of folks with less than average ego, but they aren't the ones who get attention most of the time. And again, there is no correlation between ego and skill. So the folks in the spotlight aren't the best, and the quiet ones in the corner aren't the worst. *** Edit The ones at the top of the pay scale aren't the best, and the ones at the bottom of the pay scale aren't the worst. *** If you want to believe in 'fairness', you will be disappointed. " I'm wondering about the point where unchecked ego becomes detrimental" The point at which is cuts into your success. If you define success by $, then more ego/ambition will boost income to the tipping point where you drive more people away. If you are selling to the masses, you need mass appeal. If you are selling to the elite, then you have to avoid mass appeal and be different/trendy/elite. As long as the market plan works,,, You have a different marketing plan. So what? " Where is that boundary where healthy self confidence becomes narcissism?" Who cares? Narcissism is a label. If you're not paying a shrink then it's irrelevant. And the behavior is a continuum, not an on/off switch. Where is the point that narcissistic behavior becomes counterproductive? Maybe 3/10 in your home life unless you have a co-dependent SO. Maybe 7/10 when selling senior picture packages, the 16 year olds will be impressed by strong self confidence. Maybe 4/10 when booking wedding shoots, the brides will want to see that you can see their vision. Maybe 8/10 if you're a pop culture figure. Bieber and Miley are pushing their careers with 9/10 narcissistic behavior. Success for them is being in the headlines every other day, not having people think they are decent human beings, or even decent performers. They are narcissistic FU$XS, at least in the media, and it's working well for them. " What does such pretentiousness do to ones ability to grow as a person, a craftsman, or as an artist? " Depends on their goals. If it's an act, and they turn it on and off as needed, it's probably an asset. If it alienates people who might offer insight it might be both an asset and a liability. If they can put up a wall to keep out 'helpful input', but still seek out what they need from others, it may be very helpful. Even if seen as an obstacle by most, it might be what they need. **Edit** How many Masters of their craft would have reached that level without a wall between them and the masses? For any artist being unapproachable is probably more of an asset than we are willing to admit. Even people who measure success by InPersonSales, they don't want to waste time with people who aren't 'their' customers. "At the other end of the spectrum, at what point is humility a virtue as opposed to being a disadvantage? Does the adage "Nice guys finish last" apply to photography? " That's easier, the point at which their lack of drive inhibits reaching their goals. But that may be a trade they are happy with. I am NOT a salesman. I'd rather be in prison in solitary confinement than make a living telling polite lies all day. "To choose is to reject" Everyone will have a different opinion of where the trade off loses value. Be happy with your choice. Don't compare it to other's choices. In the end the major goal is to be happy. Everyone has different preferences and limits. Everyone has a different balance point on Self Confidence VS Egotistical Jerk. Success is being happy, not following a script as determined by someone else. May 04 15 02:40 pm Link still-photography wrote: There's always someone better... keeps you in check. May 04 15 03:49 pm Link I think that success requires a healthy dose of delusion. Humility is a wonderful trait, but it is best worn as a mask. Be humble when you receive compliments, and courteous, but deep down believe that it is well deserved. May 04 15 03:50 pm Link But don't forget that there's a lot of evidence that those with the least ability think of themselves as having a lot of it, and the people with lots of ability are usually aware of their limitations.  May 04 15 04:08 pm Link I've learned to live with my narcissism.  May 04 15 04:34 pm Link No one can draw that line, because it is entirely personal. One person's 'aggressive asshole' is someone else's 'self-starter.' It all depends on the job and the client, not to mention the photographer's reputation. For art photography, an ego is a must-have. You need to trust in your vision enough to ignore people and keep doing what you're doing, or you'll spend all your time on revisions and never finish anything. But you do need to be open to new ideas, or best case you'll make the same photos every time. Worst case, you'll make the same shitty photos every time. For commercial photography, your ego(and all aspects of your personality) are a lot more important than your skill level. Commercial photography is about sales, and good salespeople sell because of their personality. If you're in sales, being too knowledgeable about the product can actually HURT you, as it makes it harder to relate to the customer. Take the most obvious sales example: the used car salesman. If you walk into a dealership with $10,000 and ask for a Mustang, a less knowledgeable salesperson will show you a used base model from a decade ago, tell you how awesome it is, and you'll be on your way. You might even get a convertible for that, and that'll pin your excitement meter real good - now you're psyched about your new car. On the other hand, a more knowledgeable salesperson is likely to consider the base model V6 not a real Mustang, and show you a different car. He's not necessarily being dishonest - he's thinking that you want a Mustang because it's a muscle car, and he's trying to get you as much muscle as you can get for ten grand. Maybe he shows you a Subaru Impreza, which is likely to have a better power to weight ratio for the price. Or he shows you a Miata, because it's a better balanced, better driving convertible for the price. The point is, his knowledge of the product resulted in him confusing the sale, and possibly losing it. If he knew less, he'd be more likely to have your money. This isn't that different from photography sales, and commercial work. In a large market, you need both the ego and the skill to back it up. But in a small market, your success is based on having the ego to tell customers what they want, and the personality to make them see things your way. May 04 15 04:42 pm Link I think that many self proclaimed artist have big heads. Not all mind you but many. For non art photographers a big head will never get you anywhere. Keep in mind that there is a difference between being proud of what you do and your accomplishments as appose to having a huge head. Depending on the type of work you do a bit of humility can go a long damn way. May 05 15 04:46 am Link still-photography wrote: One mistake people frequently make (and is also something that can be lost in translation easily by just reading a typed response in a forum) is that there is a HUGE difference between arrogance and confidence. Just because someone is very confident in what they do does not necessarily make them arrogant in how they do it although showing a little hubris in your work isn't always a bad thing either. May 05 15 07:22 am Link You don't need to have a crazy ego to be a great artist , I know quite a few who are very humble and very good. May 05 15 07:59 am Link 1472 wrote: Certainly not, but you do need to have a crazy ego to make a living doing it. May 05 15 11:08 am Link 1472 wrote: Good Egg Productions wrote: In that, I disagree. And that's also the gist of why I started this. May 05 15 01:38 pm Link For starters, you're the last person that is qualified to judge your own ego, just as I am the last person qualified to judge my own. After all ... very few will come out and say they're egotistical jerks. That's kind of how egomania works  But if you think about what the word means ... Freud used the Ego to refer to one's sense of conscious self - who you mean to be. As opposed to the Super Ego(unconscious self), and the Id(primal self.) Having a strong ego, in psychological terms, simply means that you have a good understanding of who you want to be. Being strong in the other aspects essentially means that you understand your own failings, and see opportunities for self-improvement. Being objectively honest about who you actually are and how others perceives you means being strong in all aspects. Egomania is when the Ego is the only strong sense of self. You get so caught up in what you THINK you're doing, that you don't see what you're ACTUALLY doing, or how people perceive your actions. It's more than that, but somebody with more than an art teacher's education in human development and psychology can explain it better than I. So from a standpoint of what these words all mean ... Yes, you need a strong ego to succeed as an artist. And contrary to what you say, you have a strong ego. After all - you said you make a good living, and implied that you're very good at what you do. Those are not sentiments that are generally shared by someone with a weak ego. You can succeed with a weak ego, but only if someone with a strong one backs you up. Arbus had a weak ego, and Szarkowski practically had to drag her kicking and screaming to MoMA. But if anyone had a strong ego, it was Szarkowski. But if you read any of his writings or interviews, you will be hard-pressed to call him egotistical. May 05 15 07:21 pm Link The boundary is when you stop getting clients or projects to shoot because of your ego! May 07 15 01:19 pm Link I think in all those "Ego" discussions..., whoever starts such a thread should begin with a definition what "Ego" means for him/her, how he/she is defining it at a baseline for the following conversation. Because, when I am reading the responses, there are huge deviations in either directions from my own understanding of the "a big ego"... For me, a "big Ego" means that the person has extreme self confidence that is borderline arrogant... and, often over inflated, completely overestimating his/her ability in the respective field of expertise. Self confidence doesn't automatically equal a big ego... and even if you have certain confidence in your work, even certainty... you might have still the occasional silent doubt, where you are questioning yourself, which you might not voice to the outside... and if you overcompensate for those insecurities, you might appear cocky to others. Anyway..., that is just from my own POW and I might have the wrong definition. Which is why I suggest an initial definition for the term "Ego". Naturally, there are many super-successful artists who have a cocky, self important and over blown ego, whose arrogance is part of their "appeal"... but... there are others who are still humble and always know that there is always someone better, more successful and more talented out there. May 07 15 01:55 pm Link Definitions are key, especially in a language like English that borrows so much from others, that even native speakers often have trouble understanding. I think we'd all agree that someone with a 'big' ego is either arrogant or nearly so, as you say. But someone with a 'strong' ego may not be the same - maybe they're stubborn (headstrong), or maybe it means that they're charismatic and very good at making people see things their way. From a psychological perspective, maybe that person has a very strong sense of identity. Someone with a 'powerful' ego is definitely charismatic. What about someone with a great ego? Grand ego? A lot of ego? Vast ego? These are all words that denote scope, but they have such different meanings, even though the extra words, by themselves, all mean basically the same thing. Sometimes I hate my language. May 07 15 03:32 pm Link First, I apologize for basically ignoring this thread. My schedule for this week was open when I wrote the original post, but that changed drastically. Udor, Zack, thanks for your input on the importance of a definition. However, I intentionally avoided doing that. I didn't want this to end up being a discussion about EGO, THE NOUN! Additionally, I didn't want my own bias against the dick who created the "ooooo, look at me - LOOK AT ME" threads to predetermine the flavor of this entire line of discussion. I see the ego / self-worth / self-esteem issue as being as variable as a question of "how much should you be able to bench press?" That all depends an a huge range of factors: inherent body type, age, gender, level of physical fitness, underlying medical conditions, etc. Shouldering a truly excessive ego can be just as damaging as trying to bench press too much weight! I believe that photographers should have a chart like THIS ONE. We should be able to look across a few rows and columns to determine just how much swagger we can safely assume without looking like complete fools! May 08 15 08:29 am Link Self confidence is important to take creative risks and venture into new areas. Once you create a photograph, I think self-criticism is invaluable. Recognize that other will/won't enjoy your work but enough patrons will keep you fed. I feel one should continuously strive to improve, so loving your own work is a hinderance. May 08 15 08:44 am Link still-photography wrote: I see... I think that you are talking about someone specific, who is a very strong self promoter and you don't like that. May 08 15 08:44 am Link I never really considered having a big ego as a means to making more money and being more successful. I was told when I was small that the world is divided into two types, the talented and the hard worker. Make sure you are in the work hard side and everything else will fall into place. By the way, many of the best photographers don't have a big ego. May 08 15 08:45 am Link It depends on whether it is a personal project or a commercial one. If it's commercial its about the client needs and ego takes a back seat. If it is a personal project, ego plays a healthy part that stops you conforming to what everyone else is doing or caring what the world thinks. May 10 15 05:36 am Link martin b wrote: After the 1985 American Music Awards ceremony, Quincy Jones used his influence to draw most of the major American recording artists of the day into a studio to record the song "We Are the World" to raise money for the victims of Ethiopia's famine. When people marveled at his ability to make the collaboration work, Jones explained that he'd taped a simple sign on the entrance: "Check Your Ego At The Door". May 10 15 10:44 am Link still-photography wrote: There are many successful artists with a very disrupted sense of self, yet while it is healthy to have.. an ever evolving thing is hard to quantify when it becomes "strong" . Of course it is relative. May 10 15 10:55 am Link |
