Patrick Walberg wrote:

Alright, Jules, if you say so ... he may not be bigoted.  However I do not like it when someone changes what I wrote with the little snide comment "corrected that for you" that I do sometimes see on the forum.  If it were done in satire, or jokingly, I would be more accepting of it ... even see it as silly & funny.  However I believe it was done in a more serious, and cynical manner.  Certainly I wont let which gender of "she or he" anyone of us chooses to use regarding Jenner bother me, and I wont change it on other people's comments.  Just don't go changing it on mine when it's clear that I disagree with some of the people posting here.

I hear what you are saying too.
State your case why she IS a she.

Shot By Adam wrote:
I'm sorry, but a soldier running into gunfire to save a fellow comrade is courageous.

You think running into gunfire is the height of courage?

Reagan didn't think so.

Shot By Adam wrote:
I'm sorry, but a soldier running into gunfire to save a fellow comrade is courageous.

I agree with you! How is having Alzheimer's "courageous?" Right?

Patrick Walberg wrote:

You are so very wrong about the part I put into bold, that I have to point out to you that Jenner did not just suddenly want to become a woman.  How nice of you to call her a "freak show" as she never felt comfortable as a "he."   When it comes to being "courageous" that label is nearly always debatable.   I tend to agree with you that the media goes over the top calling most everyone labels like "courageous" when most people labeled as courageous are humble and argue that it was nothing.  If you wish to argue about what is courageous, we cannot do that here because this is not soap box.  The FACT is that transgenders get plenty of death threats because of who they are. It's obvious that they are not widely accepted, even here on the forums.

I have photographed many transgender, gay and otherwise different people from the "norm" as the media would say.   I've posted images of transgenders in my portfolio with absolutely no one able to tell the difference.  One transgender was so feminine in person that men were all over themselves flirting with her where ever we went.  It took a short time for her to trust me, but until I was told by her, I didn't know that she was once a "he" when we first met.  Some would say she was just "a little too perfect!"

Many transgenders have been murdered including some such people in my community, so they are in danger.  As confusing as it maybe to many of us, Caitlyn Jenner just happens to be a former Olympic champion whose decathlon record still stands as Bruce Jenner!  I don't what that is like to be in a male body, but otherwise feel, and think like a female.   I will say this, every one of us has some female and male hormones.  No human is 100% male or female.  That is a biological FACT!  It's a shame society is not more accepting of transgenders.  If society was, then the media would not blow up with this "news" about Jenner.

Patrick, So well said!..................W

Yes!, it is "courageous"!  especially because a person has the courage to put themselves up to the scrutiny and ridicule of today's society, knowing that many will call them a "freak show" and worse. Its brave to live as ones true self, instead of faking it to fit in "normally" for the comfort of others, like he felt he had to do most of his life. That cover may give someone the courage to live and save lives, perhaps Vogue or W should follow suit.................W

Patrick Walberg wrote:
I called you a bigot because you "fixed" my opinion as you disagreed with my referring to Caitlyn Jenner as a "she."

And I still stand by my correction of your post. You are factually incorrect by referring to Mr. Jenner as a "she". It is irrelevant to what he wants to identify with, it is only relevant as to the sexual organs he possesses at this time. Again, if I want to be identified as a giraffe, that doesn't mean I'm now a giraffe. If I want to be identified as a Vogon, that doesn't mean I'm suddenly a Vogon. Some of us actually do believe that words mean things and using the correct vocabulary when it comes to issues like this is what helps to nullify the political correct individuals that have a desire to change the language simply to suit something in pop culture.

So again, I will clarify, as he is right now, he is a male form of a human being. I couldn't care less what he "identifies" himself as being, it really isn't relevant. His genitalia is that of a male. Should he move forward with the surgery and have his penis and testicles removed and made into a vagina, go through with the hormone therapy, and other physical conversions into adjusting the physicalities of his sexual orientation then we can revisit this conversation at that time and refer to Jenner as "she". Until that time though, what he chooses to identify with really isn't relevant to this conversation.

Jules NYC wrote:

I hear what you are saying too.
State your case why she IS a she.

Thank you.  Caitlyn Jenner has asked to be referred to as "she" and I respect that. It's that simple.

Shot By Adam wrote:
And I still stand by my correction of your post. You are factually incorrect by referring to Mr. Jenner as a "she". It is irrelevant to what he wants to identify with, it is only relevant as to the sexual organs he possesses at this time. Again, if I want to be identified as a giraffe, that doesn't mean I'm now a giraffe. If I want to be identified as a Vogon, that doesn't mean I'm suddenly a Vogon. Some of us actually do believe that words mean things and using the correct vocabulary when it comes to issues like this is what helps to nullify the political correct individuals that have a desire to change the language simply to suit something in pop culture.

So again, I will clarify, as he is right now, he is a male form of a human being. I couldn't care less what he "identifies" himself as being, it really isn't relevant. His genitalia is that of a male. Should he move forward with the surgery and have his penis and testicles removed and made into a vagina, go through with the hormone therapy, and other physical conversions into adjusting the physicalities of his sexual orientation then we can revisit this conversation at that time and refer to Jenner as "she". Until that time though, what he chooses to identify with really isn't relevant to this conversation.

I'm respectful, compassionate and understanding of all people.  I have friends who are transgender, gay, different religious beliefs, as well as different political beliefs.  I grew up in a family of wonderful teachers and learned to read in English at an adult level before I was 5 years old.  I sat around the discussion table listening to even my parents debate in a civil manner because although they were very different in beliefs, they loved each other.  My siblings and I are all very unique, successful and assertive.  We are all different.  That said ...

Alright, let's talk about the biology of sexual beings.  Biologically, when checking hormone levels no one is 100% male or female.  There are likely many hermaphrodites among us whom we may or may not be aware of.  Many more humans have variations of inner-sexual organs, and they are NOT a true hermaphrodite because they can still procreate.  It happens among nearly all species of mammals.  Now about Jenner ....

As I said before, it is far easier to be a transgender than it is to be a trans-species.   You can become female far easier than you can become a giraffe.   Humans have become quite good at organ transplants.  Male organs and female organs are not usually transplanted, but it is possible.  Does Jenner still have a penis?  I guess so, but sex is so much more than about the organs.  The largest sexual organ the human species has is our brain.  I respect that you want to refer to Jenner as a male, but likewise, Jenner wishes to be referred to as Caitlyn Jenner, a female.  I respect her, and I respect your opinion, but I will not put up with you changing my comments as such.  Fair enough?

DAVISICON wrote:
The genetic code does not always translate the same to both the brain "being" and the body "look".   Its called "born this way", its what your brain tells you,  you actually are,  not how you look......................W

Absolutely true!!!!   

  Once again, the largest sexual organ in the human body is the brain.

So as Lady Gaga might say about Jenner 'baby I was born this way!"

Shot By Adam wrote:

And I still stand by my correction of your post. You are factually incorrect by referring to Mr. Jenner as a "she". It is irrelevant to what he wants to identify with, it is only relevant as to the sexual organs he possesses at this time. Again, if I want to be identified as a giraffe, that doesn't mean I'm now a giraffe. If I want to be identified as a Vogon, that doesn't mean I'm suddenly a Vogon. Some of us actually do believe that words mean things and using the correct vocabulary when it comes to issues like this is what helps to nullify the political correct individuals that have a desire to change the language simply to suit something in pop culture.

So again, I will clarify, as he is right now, he is a male form of a human being. I couldn't care less what he "identifies" himself as being, it really isn't relevant. His genitalia is that of a male. Should he move forward with the surgery and have his penis and testicles removed and made into a vagina, go through with the hormone therapy, and other physical conversions into adjusting the physicalities of his sexual orientation then we can revisit this conversation at that time and refer to Jenner as "she". Until that time though, what he chooses to identify with really isn't relevant to this conversation.

I can't say I fault your logic there. I just wonder how those born with unformed sex organs, or men who loose their their equipment due to cancer or accident fit in there. Same question for those with XXY chromosomes

Determining sex by whether or not the subject has a penis is pretty black and white. Which would work fine, if nature didn't like to throw in all sorts of grey areas. It's much the same as saying that you are either a man or a chimp, but that there were never any creatures in between, or that predated both.

There are so many grey areas that at a certain point, you sort of have to run with it.

I personally find the only confusing thing is when people are just starting to transition, and you have to remember what to call them when. Other than that, it's pretty simple. You can remember to call James Jim, right? Or do you ask to see his birth certificate, and demand to only use that name?

Victoria Elle wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transphobia

"Transphobia (or much less commonly transprejudice) is a range of antagonistic attitudes and feelings against transsexuality and transsexual or transgender people, based on the expression of their internal gender identity (see Phobia – Terms for prejudice). Researchers describe transphobia as emotional disgust, fear, anger or discomfort felt or expressed towards people who do not conform to society's gender expectations,[1][2] and say that although it is an aspect of homophobia,[3][4] and is similar to racism and sexism, those attitudes are becoming generally unacceptable in modern society, whereas significantly more individuals still maintain transphobic views without fear of censure.[5]"

"Misgendering is a word coined by transgender American writer and biologist Julia Serano to refer to the experience of being labeled by someone as having a gender other than the one you identify with. Misgendering can be deliberate or accidental. It ordinarily takes the form of a person using pronouns (including "it") to describe someone that are not the ones that person prefers,[19][20][21][22][23] calling a person "ma'am" or "sir" in contradiction to the person's gender identity,[21][24][25] using a pre-transition name for someone instead of a post-transition one,[23][26][27][28] or insisting that a person behave consistently with their assigned rather than self-identified gender, for example by using a bathroom designated for males even though the person identifies as female. The experience of being misgendered is common for all transgender people before they transition, and for many afterwards as well.[29] Transgender people are regularly misgendered by doctors,[15] police, media and peers, experiences that they have described as mortifying,[30] hurtful, especially to transgender youth,[31] cruel,[32] and "only making our lives harder."[31] Knowingly and deliberately misgendering a transgender person is considered extremely offensive by transgender individuals.[31][32]"

Just a few links for people actually interested in why it is important to use preferred pronouns:
http://www.entirelyamelia.com/2014/01/0 … -big-deal/
http://www.tranarchism.com/2011/04/26/g … ng-is-bad/
http://www.commdiginews.com/life/pronou … ons-11985/
http://www.cbc.ca/news/trending/caitlyn … -1.3096739
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the- … i-learned/
http://genderterror.com/2014/01/30/misg … -violence/
http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/02/media/c … gendering/

Thank you Victoria! 

Monad Studios wrote:
Whatever forms of publicity-seeking the Kardashians might indulge in, I don't see any reason to doubt Caitlyn's sincerity about her long-standing desire to live and be seen as a woman.  If she wants to use her fame to promote acceptance of transgender people I don't begrudge her one bit of it.  Besides, whatever anyone might think about reality television and manufactured fame, Caitlyn is famous primarily for being a world-class athlete, an Olympic gold-medal winner.  That's not cheap fame.

How many Olympic Gold Medal winners are alive in the US right now?  How many can you name?  Olympic fame, while not "cheap fame" does have a limited amount of public interest time.  It lessens fairly quickly and the person then moves on to live their life, doing something other than being a Gold Medal winner to make a living.

Bruce Jenner chose to become a media whore along with the rest of the Kardashians.  What he is doing now is not "brave", it is merely a continuation of the same over the top sensational cheap shock entertainment that he has been doing on (un)reality TV for years.  That's why I say he is a fraud, this is nothing special, it's more of the same from him.

Any raising awareness to the difficult plight of those who suffer from gender identity issues is merely a side effect of Bruce raising awareness and popularity of himself.  He, and his handlers, are going to bank from this.  You know there is a reality show coming and this time he won't have to be overshadowed by all those Kardashians, this one will be all about Bruce...errr Caitlyn.

Jules NYC wrote:

What would make him a bigot ?

Solas wrote:
The article, to me, reads to be about the photography of the portrait in question ..
the debate in this thread went by the wayside of that when it was hijacked by a poster complaining about they feel towards the subject

So on the topic of the photography of the portrait - what is the "professional" (I say that loosely, because many of the opinions expressed are far from the standard) critique of Annie L's portrait?

contrived
adjective

1) deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously.

2) created or arranged in a way that seems artificial and unrealistic.

synonyms: forced, strained, studied, artificial, affected, put-on, phony, pretended, false, feigned, fake, manufactured, unnatural

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:

What would make him a bigot ?

Did you read the thread?

ernst tischler wrote:
contrived
adjective

1) deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously.

2) created or arranged in a way that seems artificial and unrealistic.

synonyms: forced, strained, studied, artificial, affected, put-on, phony, pretended, false, feigned, fake, manufactured, unnatural

I'm not really a fan of it either, from the style, to the clothing to the pose.. it just feels really off for Annie's prior work, there is no storytelling in it at all. And this person has a rich story.. so an opportunity lost

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
Everyone has an opinion . . . . along with certain anatomical parts . . . .  Big Deal !

Ken you got it so right, i'm in 100% agreement, plus the following:

I'm so absolutely sick and tired of people calling this "courageous". I'm sorry, but a person, a Marine trooper, a police officer or a fireman running into a life or death event to save someone is courageous. A self-absorbed freak, declaring on a "reality" t.v. show that he wants to become a woman is not.

TheNormGallerys wrote:
I'm so absolutely sick and tired of people calling this "courageous".

They have dictionaries online now.

You don't even have to open a book or know what alphabetical order is.

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
Everyone has an opinion . . . . along with certain anatomical parts . . . .  Big Deal !

TheNormGallerys wrote:
Ken you got it so right, i'm in 100% agreement, plus the following:

I'm so absolutely sick and tired of people calling this "courageous". I'm sorry, but a person, a Marine trooper, a police officer or a fireman running into a life or death event to save someone is courageous. A self-absorbed freak, declaring on a "reality" t.v. show that he wants to become a woman is not.

And I don't know what you think you are agreeing with, but from what I see, the writer of the LA Times article said the photo was flat, and Ken basically said to him, "you think the photo is flat? Big deal! Everyone has an opinion, just like everyone has an asshole."

Shot By Adam wrote:
A 65 year old self-absorbed freak show

Moral courage is doing what you think is right, even in the face of intimidation.

That means what Jenner did was in fact courageous as long as there are people in the world who would call her a "freak show."

MN Photography wrote:
I've dated two women who are psychologists who do transgender screening and therapy.  The reason that transgender screening exists is that not all people who superficially believe they were born with the wrong gender assignment really were.  It's not an easy call.  Both of these psychologists told me that men (it's usually always men) with narcissistic personally disorder will sometimes want sex reassignment as another of their perpetual attention seeking devices. 

Given Bruce Jenner's long history of attention seeking behavior, it's completely possible that "Caitlyn" is just the latest manifestation of Jenner's obvious issues with narcissistic personally disorder.

This explanation certainly fits what I see happening.

...and if this is the case, those around him should be seeing to it he gets the help he needs, instead of encouraging the behavior so they can profit from it.

Victoria Elle wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transphobia

"Transphobia (or much less commonly transprejudice) is a range of antagonistic attitudes and feelings against transsexuality and transsexual or transgender people, based on the expression of their internal gender identity (see Phobia – Terms for prejudice). Researchers describe transphobia as emotional disgust, fear, anger or discomfort felt or expressed towards people who do not conform to society's gender expectations,[1][2] and say that although it is an aspect of homophobia,[3][4] and is similar to racism and sexism, those attitudes are becoming generally unacceptable in modern society, whereas significantly more individuals still maintain transphobic views without fear of censure.[5]"

"Misgendering is a word coined by transgender American writer and biologist Julia Serano to refer to the experience of being labeled by someone as having a gender other than the one you identify with. Misgendering can be deliberate or accidental. It ordinarily takes the form of a person using pronouns (including "it") to describe someone that are not the ones that person prefers,[19][20][21][22][23] calling a person "ma'am" or "sir" in contradiction to the person's gender identity,[21][24][25] using a pre-transition name for someone instead of a post-transition one,[23][26][27][28] or insisting that a person behave consistently with their assigned rather than self-identified gender, for example by using a bathroom designated for males even though the person identifies as female. The experience of being misgendered is common for all transgender people before they transition, and for many afterwards as well.[29] Transgender people are regularly misgendered by doctors,[15] police, media and peers, experiences that they have described as mortifying,[30] hurtful, especially to transgender youth,[31] cruel,[32] and "only making our lives harder."[31] Knowingly and deliberately misgendering a transgender person is considered extremely offensive by transgender individuals.[31][32]"

Just a few links for people actually interested in why it is important to use preferred pronouns:
http://www.entirelyamelia.com/2014/01/0 … -big-deal/
http://www.tranarchism.com/2011/04/26/g … ng-is-bad/
http://www.commdiginews.com/life/pronou … ons-11985/
http://www.cbc.ca/news/trending/caitlyn … -1.3096739
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the- … i-learned/
http://genderterror.com/2014/01/30/misg … -violence/
http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/02/media/c … gendering/

Word.

ernst tischler wrote:
contrived
adjective

1) deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously.

2) created or arranged in a way that seems artificial and unrealistic.

synonyms: forced, strained, studied, artificial, affected, put-on, phony, pretended, false, feigned, fake, manufactured, unnatural

Solas wrote:
I'm not really a fan of it either, from the style, to the clothing to the pose.. it just feels really off for Annie's prior work, there is no storytelling in it at all. And this person has a rich story.. so an opportunity lost

Although the scene is totally contrived, the photographer presented an honest representation of what actually is there and that in itself tells the story.  We have a 65 year old male chronic attention seeker attempting to present himself as a 40-ish woman.  The photograph does not convey the courage of a transgender coming out and being free, but rather a has been B level celebrity who made herself up as best she could and sat for a cheap portrait.

Perhaps the photographer has shared her opinion of Bruce within her work.

ernst tischler wrote:
Perhaps the photographer has shared her opinion of Bruce within her work.

That's a perspective I hadn't considered. interesting

Jules NYC wrote:
Don't you think in the same vein, this was done with elegance instead of a cliché 'Hey I'm out like a jack in the box?'

I see a much more comfortable person in this photograph.  The hands being posed, instead of hidden, speak volumes about her confidence.  There is a huge difference in this cover and the Bruce Jenner cover.

ernst tischler wrote:
I see a much more comfortable person in this photograph.  The hands being posed, instead of hidden, speak volumes about her confidence.  There is a huge difference in this cover and the Bruce Jenner cover.

I agree the TIME photo of Ms. Cox exemplifies what you wrote yet with all due respect to all, don't you think Caitlyn's physique isn't as photographable perhaps? in that stance... *yet* without the positioning, outfit, etc.?

I'm thinking most wanted Caitlyn to be pictured like this:



It's not as if this gender transformation is this:



Gender orientation is who you 'are'.
Sexual orientation is who you want to sleep with.

Jules NYC wrote:
I agree the TIME photo of Ms. Cox exemplifies what you wrote yet with all due respect to all, don't you think Caitlyn's physique isn't as photographable perhaps? in that stance... *yet* without the positioning, outfit, etc.?

Is this not being billed as the liberating moment for Bruce Jenner?  If this is about being honest with the world about who he is, then why hide the physique, why hide the hands?  He is 65 years old, why does he make himself up to be 40-ish? 

Is this really about being who is really is?

...or is it about staying in the spotlight?

ernst tischler wrote:
Is this not being billed as the liberating moment for Bruce Jenner?  If this is about being honest with the world about who he is, then why hide the physique, why hide the hands?  He is 65 years old, why does he make himself up to be 40-ish? 

Is this really about being who is really is?

...or is it about staying in the spotlight?

I didn't have a lifetime of conflicting feelings about my gender identity.  As it has taken a lifetime for this transformation, if I were in C's shoes I would want to look as feminine as possible. I would take Annie's direction.  I'm sure there was great thought into the final product from all aspects (position, post-processing, etc.).

On that note, don't most models/photographers use Photoshop to make everyone look better? ... even 16 year olds?
Corsets
Push-up bras
High heels

Women use a variety of elements including makeup to enhance what they have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX2npGQVQsA



This reminds me a little of Cindy Crawford.

KungPaoChic wrote:
I think there are all different levels of courage. It is hard to be different.

Look at the level of intolerance in this very thread.

Coming out is a huge thing for most people.

I am not a fan in general of the reality tv subculture and a lot of it smacks of attention whoring to me but I think coming out has to be really scary.

So it isn't the same kind of courage as charging into battle but putting yourself out there publicly, knowing that society, your family and loved ones can completely tear you down -- that can't be an easy thing.

I don't understand why people get so upset about other people's sexuality or gender identification.

They are human beings like anyone else.

+1

ernst tischler wrote:
Is this not being billed as the liberating moment for Bruce Jenner?  If this is about being honest with the world about who he is, then why hide the physique, why hide the hands?  He is 65 years old, why does he make himself up to be 40-ish? 

Is this really about being who is really is?

...or is it about staying in the spotlight?

This is being billed as a liberating moment for Caitlyn Jenner.  That is what she has asked to be called; that is who she is.  Continually referring to her with male pronouns, and by her pre-transition name is an ugly, insulting, and disrespectful to her and to the entire transgender community.

Most women strive to present themselves as though they are 35.  She is no different from any other woman in this aspect.

Societally accepted feminine presentation is not natural, even for cisgender women.  It is entirely performative, and we must be taught it and rehearse to achieve it our entire lives.  Laverne Cox is more comfortable in her femininity because she has been conforming to it for years.  Some women never become comfortable with it, especially on camera, and there is nothing wrong with that.

ernst tischler wrote:
Is this not being billed as the liberating moment for Bruce Jenner?  If this is about being honest with the world about who he is, then why hide the physique, why hide the hands?  He is 65 years old, why does he make himself up to be 40-ish? 

Is this really about being who is really is?

...or is it about staying in the spotlight?

Think about the media coverage leading up to her Diane Sawyer interview.  She was clearing being harassed by paparazzi about her gender identity without yet having made any public statement about it.  She wasn't given the option to keep her decision and transition private.

The spotlight was unavoidable.  But she was able to go forward on her terms.  Frankly, in the same situation, I'd rather my story be told by Diane 20/20 and Vanity Fair than by TMZ and The National Enquirer.

Victoria Elle wrote:
This is being billed as a liberating moment for Caitlyn Jenner.  That is what she has asked to be called; that is who she is.  Continually referring to her with male pronouns, and by her pre-transition name is an ugly, insulting, and disrespectful to her and to the entire transgender community.

You can stop right there.  My use of Bruce Jenner's name is in no way insulting to anyone, not to Bruce and certainly not to the "entire transgender community."  I have not referred in any manner to anyone other than Bruce Jenner in my comments on this thread. 

I choose to call him by his name, Bruce Jenner, because as I have explained in my previous comments, I do not believe this is nothing more than his next act to continue his (in)fame and fortune.  He is a media attention whore just like the rest of the Kardashians he chose to associate himself with,

I don't buy his BS and I refuse to play into it by calling him Caitlyn or her or she.

Victoria Elle wrote:
Most women strive to present themselves as though they are 35.  She is no different from any other woman in this aspect.

Societally accepted feminine presentation is not natural, even for cisgender women.  It is entirely performative, and we must be taught it and rehearse to achieve it our entire lives.  Laverne Cox is more comfortable in her femininity because she has been conforming to it for years.  Some women never become comfortable with it, especially on camera, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I fully understand that in order to pass as a female, Bruce must wear what a woman would wear.  I have not taken issue with that.  There are many 65 year old women who do NOT try to make themselves look 35 in photographs.  They are secure in their age and present themselves accordingly.