Shot By Adam wrote:
Exactly. I was also curious if any of his gear survived and how the shoot came out? I'm sure he got some really unique shots of his model on the railroad tracks and I hope he used some caution tape during the shoot as well. Wouldn't it be cool if he got a selfie with the train that clipped him? Now THAT would at least show a little originality!

Exactly. People don't realize that these Darwin Award winners impact a lot of people who have to deal with the emotional trauma of one person's stupidity. Yes, we all make bad decisions in our lives, like whether to eat at that Thai restaurant with the C rating from the health department, but this transcends "stupid" on a whole new level and as far as I'm concerned, it's the removal of one idiot from the gene pool.

Do the semantics of this REALLY matter? And yes, some of us found that joke funny.

Oh PUH-LEEZE! Your sanctimony is just oozing out of my computer monitor. Here, I'll see your hurt little feelings and raise you one giant cliche'!

And for the record, when we shot this we agreed to do so on a very clear day, in a spot where we had at least 1 mile visibility in each direction, on a day that trains never run on this track (it was a local line that wasn't used on weekends) and yes, we had a spotter there watching, just in case.

You are a riot, dude.  You calling me sanctimonious!  Of course you found it funny.  No doubt.  I wouldn't expect anything less.

I am sure when this guy set up on the tracks, he thought he had all the safety issues covered.

Whatever, dude.

https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post … st19220384

Koryn wrote:
I think it's strange when people go on and on about how "dumb" this guy was, or whatever. In my experience, a good many photographers (and models) regularly do dangerous/illegal things in order to get the photos they want. Only, those people don't have the misfortune of dying, so everyone talks about how great their images are instead of talking shit about them posthumously.

I didn't, so it's no big deal - but I guess my point is, photographers and models do dangerous stuff A LOT, so I see a lot of irony in the whole judgement-passing that's going on here.

Take chances, yes. But take chances that might result in something worthwhile, not cliche photos of train tracks.

Koryn wrote:
I think it's strange when people go on and on about how "dumb" this guy was, or whatever.

Sorry, but when people do stupid things that affect other people, they deserved to be called out on it so as to be a warning to hopefully make the next dipshit think twice about their actions. Some people just don't learn though. So instead of coddling these people or offering public displays of "Oh, what a tragedy" or "He was risking his life for what he loved" nonsense, perhaps a bit of public shaming is in order here instead.

I've crawled through years of piled up, decomposing pigeon shit, been nude outside when it was 28 degrees, been covered in mud and animal bones. I even did pole tricks on a building support beam, four stories off the ground, above a busy intersection - because all these things have been aspects of doing my job at different times. All of them were, on some level, dangerous and I could have easily died doing at least one of them.

But that's all on YOU. I doubt when you were crawling through pigeon crap that you could have derailed an entire train or caused other people to die or deal with the horror of you dying in the process, right? So there you go. Most of us have done some risky things to get a photo but I don't ever recall risking my life or the life of a model or crew to get a shot that would involve innocent bystanders who might have to witness someone's death or even be risked dying themselves or cost a cost a company millions of dollars if my shoot went sideways.

I doubt that this fool woke up that morning and though, "Hey, let's go play on the train tracks and see which one of us can get killed today" but that's pretty much what happened due to his negligence and now other people have to pay the price for it. Go tell the train company who has to now deal with insurance issues about how great this guys' photo shoot was. Go tell the people who had to pick up his battered corpse about how wonderful the photos look. Go tell the family of that guy that "he was risking his life to get some great cliche' shots...too bad he didn't have any caution tape with him."

What if the train Conductor made the decision to lock up the brakes because some idiot was taking pictures on the track and the train derailed? How would you feel about it then? See my point? So I'm sorry, some people really do deserve some public shame for their actions and by doing so, perhaps we can make people think twice before they think that next photo shoot on the tracks is a brilliant idea.

I feel bad about the fact that the guy died, but I certainly don't feel bad about the WAY that he died. My condolences go out to his family, and yet at the same time, such condolences wouldn't have to be given if this guy had any common sense or good judgement.

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
You calling me sanctimonious!

Yep. Sure am.

I am sure when this guy set up on the tracks, he thought he had all the safety issues covered.

Therein lies the problem, he didn't have ANY safety issue covered. Zip, zero, nada.

MF productions wrote:
Isn't it illegal to stand on train tracks?

It is a crime of trespassing to be anywhere on railroad property without permission.

ernst tischler wrote:
It is a crime of trespassing to be anywhere on railroad property without permission.

You are 100% correct!  It is trespassing, and one could be written up for it.  Usually you'd get a warning and told to leave before they'd arrest you though.  It's for good reason, but some people still challenge the law.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Everyone of us has made mistakes that are of some risk.  Heck, just walking on a wet floor can be risky!  His was a fatal mistake.

I agree with you Patrick but there are many different levels of risk too. I take a risk every time I get in my car and drive across town and while it is entirely possible I may get into an accident on the road...possibly even a fatal one, the odds on that are still low by comparison to, say, juggling hand grenades, which is much riskier even if done "safely".

The problem is, this photographer entered a VERY high risk environment and yet he treated it as if it were a low risk environment, and that is why he got killed. I've worked with many animal trainers over the years who work with exotic birds, big cats, and the like. Every one of them will have a story for you about how they got bit or clawed on and the one common denominator between all of their accidents was that they got lazy and assumed a high risk environment was a low risk one.

The same thing applies to this photographer. Assuming risk is one thing, understanding and respecting that risk is something different though.

Shot By Adam wrote:
I agree with you Patrick but there are many different levels of risk too. I take a risk every time I get in my car and drive across town and while it is entirely possible I may get into an accident on the road...possibly even a fatal one, the odds on that are still low by comparison to, say, juggling hand grenades, which is much riskier even if done "safely".

The problem is, this photographer entered a VERY high risk environment and yet he treated it as if it were a low risk environment, and that is why he got killed. I've worked with many animal trainers over the years who work with exotic birds, big cats, and the like. Every one of them will have a story for you about how they got bit or clawed on and the one common denominator between all of their accidents was that they got lazy and assumed a high risk environment was a low risk one.

The same thing applies to this photographer. Assuming risk is one thing, understanding and respecting that risk is something different though.

There is one thing that we can all be sure of, and that is we shall all die someday.  Hopefully much later than sooner, right?  Sometimes we take risks with the knowledge that we could be killed.  For example those who do high risk sports like base jumping, hang gliding, motocross, motorcycle racing (2 drivers died this past weekend at the track near me.) and so on ... heck, playing professional football has great risk involved when playing at that intense level for much length of time. The point is that the person who participates in these sports has at least some knowledge of what they are doing. They are aware!

The photographer killed by the train could have done some things to protect him and the model from injury or death.  He could have gotten permission.  He could have made himself aware of the times that trains are traveling the tracks.  He could have had two spotters looking both directions.  He could have had all of those and perhaps still been killed.  He was unaware, and thus blindsided by the train and his ignorance. 

Photographers should know the risks, but sometimes it's common sense.  It's very important to gain the knowledge you need to protect yourself.  If you have to break laws to gain access, for example trespassing, then maybe you should not be doing it?  I'm sorry he died, but I see your point.

Shot By Adam wrote:
Early this morning I was doing some corporate headshots for some attendees at a seminar. While I was speaking with one of the men, I asked him what he did for a living. "I'm transitioning careers right now. I just became a flight EMT a few months ago...before I was a train engineer for about 20 years."

I SHIT YOU NOT.

So I asked him if he had heard about this case and that it was a topic I read about in a forum post in a modeling/photography website. He certainly had. I asked if I could pick his brain about the topic a little and what he said was very interesting. He told me that he really wished they would do more PSAs about not goofing around on train tracks because fatalities on them is WAY more common than people think. He then said this to me, which really put a chill down my spine...

"I estimate I've killed about six people in my career working for the railroads. One I know was a suicide but the rest I think were just people who were too stupid to know better."

Wow.

He said that people just never take into consideration that their being stupid around railroad tracks affects others in so many ways. "People don't realize that there are actually people in those trains that are forced to witness them dying because they're too stupid to realize they put themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time." I thought it was a little weird that he took ownership of these people's deaths but that's how he felt, and I felt bad for him because of it. Again, when people make decisions like this, they rarely, if ever, take into account the path of destruction they leave when their poor decisions go sideways.

OMG! no wonder he is changing his career choice.Poor guy:(   cant even to begin to imagine the nightmares he's probably experienced.

Shot By Adam wrote:
Early this morning I was doing some corporate headshots for some attendees at a seminar. While I was speaking with one of the men, I asked him what he did for a living. "I'm transitioning careers right now. I just became a flight EMT a few months ago...before I was a train engineer for about 20 years."

I SHIT YOU NOT.

So I asked him if he had heard about this case and that it was a topic I read about in a forum post in a modeling/photography website. He certainly had. I asked if I could pick his brain about the topic a little and what he said was very interesting. He told me that he really wished they would do more PSAs about not goofing around on train tracks because fatalities on them is WAY more common than people think. He then said this to me, which really put a chill down my spine...

"I estimate I've killed about six people in my career working for the railroads. One I know was a suicide but the rest I think were just people who were too stupid to know better."

Wow.

He said that people just never take into consideration that their being stupid around railroad tracks affects others in so many ways. "People don't realize that there are actually people in those trains that are forced to witness them dying because they're too stupid to realize they put themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time." I thought it was a little weird that he took ownership of these people's deaths but that's how he felt, and I felt bad for him because of it. Again, when people make decisions like this, they rarely, if ever, take into account the path of destruction they leave when their poor decisions go sideways.

Education is important, yet so many people lack common sense!   I would hope that PSA's would help prevent at least a few deaths.  Here is one for you ... 

"Drinking too much can harm your health. One in 10 deaths among working-age adults aged 20–64 years are due to excessive alcohol use.

Excessive alcohol use is a leading cause of preventable death. This dangerous behavior accounted for approximately 88,000 deaths per year from 2006–2010, and accounted for 1 in 10 deaths among working-age adults aged 20–64 years. Excessive alcohol use shortened the lives of those who died by about 30 years. These deaths were due to health effects from drinking too much over time, such as breast cancer, liver disease, and heart disease, and health effects from consuming a large amount of alcohol in a short period of time, such as violence, alcohol poisoning, and motor vehicle crashes."  -This quoted from The Center For Disease Control

Of those 88,000 deaths due to alcohol use, I found that 29,000 were directly due to overdosing on alcohol, commonly known as alcohol poisoning.  So 29,000 people overdose on alcohol on average every year!   The best statistics I could get on number of deaths from pedestrians hit by trains is on average one a day, meaning anywhere from 340 to 440 a year.  The number of pedestrians killed by cars is in the thousands, for example 2,600 in a year, but not the tens of thousands.  These numbers should give one something to thing about.  How do we protect people from themselves?   It's nearly impossible.

It's amazing to me what people do to themselves, yet I admittedly experienced alcohol poisoning myself when I was in my young and dumb years.  Anyone who has experienced a hangover has overdosed on alcohol.  I actually did go to the hospital to get a shot that sobered my up, along with an IV to hydrate me.  I probably would have survived without the hospital visit, but I was worried.  I've been a photographer back in the late 1980's and early 90's for a company that sent me to college frat and sorority parties to take pictures.  It was not a great business plan, as due to the digital  age, "party pics" are now "selfies!'   

matt-h2 wrote:
I posted on a Zivity forum suggesting that the corporate parent consider banning any sets shot on train tracks. My suggestion was made not only from a safety standpoint, but also from a liability standpoint. Since a real person at Zivity reviews each set that is published, a case could be made that allowing sets shot on tracks is tacit approval of that particular dangerous action, and that relatives of anyone injured or killed while shooting for Zivity could use that as a means to extend liability to Zivity.

Like here, that discussion rapidly devolved to other examples of possibly dangerous activities that models and photographers and others engage in. Or why tracks in situation X might not be dangerous. Somewhat like the smoking arguments we had 20 years ago.

I suppose it will all be academic until someone brings a case to court.

Hey friend, you're in the city where I did my railroad tracks shoot ... got it out of my system!   

Here is the thing, we all know that there are risks involved in most everything we do.  More people drown .. every year than get hit by a train.  "From 2005-2009, there were an average of 3,533 fatal unintentional drownings (non-boating related) annually in the United States — about ten deaths per day. An additional 347 people died each year from drowning in boating-related incidents. About one in five people who die from drowning are children 14 and younger.Oct 24, 2014" therefore are we wise to ban images of models at the beach, or near swimming pools, or bathtubs???  There goes half my portfolio!   

The other thing is the "image as proof" argument.  I used to work for photo labs near Santa Cruz and I'd see nice close ups of marijuana buds, or the plants themselves.  I'd see what looks like cocaine and drug paraphernalia ...  the police wont touch it!  An image is just that ... an "image!"  You can't positively identify that the object photographed is real.  There are Photoshop experts now who are so good with a green screen shot, that they can put a model on railroad tracks tied up with a train bearing down on her, and it's all done with Photoshop.  So who is to judge?  Website operators dealing with images shouldn't have to ban such because they might get sued. There are safe ways of doing it. 

So with an average of one person a day dying from being hit by a train vs. ten a day from drowning, where do you draw the line?  Through alcohol into any situation, and your increase the risk tenfold!  Go back and read how many people die from alcohol poisoning a year.  (on average 29,000 die a year from alcohol poisoning)  It's figuratively mind blowing ...  or literally in the case of the drunk who launched a powerful firework from his head!  Should we ban pictures of models with guns, fireworks or even big dogs because those things could kill a person?  Leave the train tracks pictures alone .. it's cliche and everyone has got to learn one way or another.  We can be liable for stupidity or lack of common sense on every little thing, now can we?

Robb Mann wrote:
This happens way too often. Train track shoots are cliche. Just say no.

http://www.slrlounge.com/another-photog … in-tracks/

The photographer was a member of our community.  rest in peace.

Well, myself as a Fresno Native, I have used the Fresno train tracks more than once, and you can find an example of this here on my MM port.  Mind you both of us are MM members and neither of us were injured in any fashion during the corse of the shoot.  And yes, there were moving trains involved, again, see port if you'd like proof.  But this article is just flat out wrong.  You can see and hear trains coming, if you pay attention to your surroundings, which you should if your working by train tracks or in a park surrounded by police officers.

Stay safe MM members!

Isaiah Brink wrote:
Well, myself as a Fresno Native, I have used the Fresno train tracks more than once, and you can find an example of this here on my MM port.  Mind you both of us are MM members and neither of us were injured in any fashion during the corse of the shoot.  And yes, there were moving trains involved, again, see port if you'd like proof.  But this article is just flat out wrong.  You can see and hear trains coming, if you pay attention to your surroundings, which you should if your working by train tracks or in a park surrounded by police officers.

Stay safe MM members!

Perhaps the most accurate statement would be: "Often you can hear or see trains coming."  Or, "Sometimes you can see or hear trains coming."  To say that you can always hear and see trains coming is in conflict with the evidence that results in the deaths of hundreds of people in non-suicide, non-crossing related tragedies each year.  You only need to loose yourself in your work for a few moments to not hear or see the train.  But it is your life.  Gamble as you please with yours.  But, as was pointed out early in this thread- your death on the tracks will have lasting consequences for other people.  Providing others with the confidence to ignore the warnings of the railroad professionals and the law, is irresponsible.  The lack of empathy is offensive, as are the Darwin comments, but maybe there is validity to the Darwin comments when people refuse to heed appropriate warnings.

Jenna Bugg wrote:
yikes.... i'm in Fresno.   

definitely NOT shooting on any tracks.  no no no.

I admit that I'm guilty of shooting around railroad tracks some years ago.  Images like that are now a cliche and so unnecessary.  Something like pedestrians getting hit & killed by trains is not all that common an occurrence, however  you are smart not do it.  I do feel badly for the family of the photographer who died.

Hunter  GWPB wrote:

Perhaps the most accurate statement would be: "Often you can hear or see trains coming."  Or, "Sometimes you can see or hear trains coming."  To say that you can always hear and see trains coming is in conflict with the evidence that results in the deaths of hundreds of people in non-suicide, non-crossing related tragedies each year.  You only need to loose yourself in your work for a few moments to not hear or see the train.  But it is your life.  Gamble as you please with yours.  But, as was pointed out early in this thread- your death on the tracks will have lasting consequences for other people.  Providing others with the confidence to ignore the warnings of the railroad professionals and the law, is irresponsible.  The lack of empathy is offensive, as are the Darwin comments, but maybe there is validity to the Darwin comments when people refuse to heed appropriate warnings.

Why do you think you need to school everyone on safety and right and wrong and act like Mr. knowledge, We all understand it was sad.  The lack of empathy by some people is not offensive to me it's just people with their own way of feeling about people they don't know. Chill dude.

D a v i d s o n wrote:
Why do you think you need to school everyone on safety and right and wrong and act like Mr. knowledge, We all understand it was sad.  The lack of empathy by some people is not offensive to me it's just people with their own way of feeling about people they don't know. Chill dude.

Why do you think you need to tell me to modify my behavior?  If something is not offensive to you, fine.  Why should I conform to your definition of what is offensive?  People share their knowledge of many subjects on this site.  Some people have benefited from what I have shared.  Some don't care.  It isn't your decision to make what I share.  I act like Mr. Knowledge?  F**k you.

edit
Operation Lifesaver, inc. asked me to participate in an upcoming PSA this fall, which is to be directed at photographers.

Hunter  GWPB wrote:

Why do you think you need to tell me to modify my behavior?  If something is not offensive to you, fine.  Why should I conform to your definition of what is offensive?  People share their knowledge of many subjects on this site.  Some people have benefited from what I have shared.  Some don't care.  It isn't your decision to make what I share.  I act like Mr. Knowledge?  F**k you.

edit
Operation Lifesaver, inc. asked me to participate in an upcoming PSA this fall, which is to be directed at photographers.

Wow chill out

D a v i d s o n wrote:

Wow chill out

Add something of value to the discussion.