A-M-P wrote:
So I had made an announcement saying I was bartering photography services. So someone contacted me and said they were interested I told them  that I will barter equal amount  of photographic services in exchange of the value of their goods.  So all sounded good I told them this Photographic package is valued at the same amount as your goods. She was on board until I told her I needed her to sign a barter agreement stating that she was allowed to sell me the goods and in the event that one of the parties doesn't fulfill their promise the other party should be compensated in full for the value of the service or goods.

I woudn't sign contract as vaguely worded as that either.

A-M-P wrote:
in the event that one of the parties doesn't fulfill their promise the other party should be compensated in full for the value of the service or goods.

This is what killed the agreement I'm betting. Bartering client has no money to pay in full, so barter client thinks "if she backs out, I owe the full amount, or if I back out, I owe the full $$$" (or have to give free stuff?) It's hard to trust something like that because there are no definitions and it's poorly written in general.

essentially what I'm thinking is you tried to do a cancellation fee type thing.. but I agree with shei, this could be interpreted many different ways. I don't blame her for walking away.

You should have a legal buddy review this stuff for your state, that line on it's own will cause you a list of headaches. Not only that just turn people off because nobody understands the language.

A-M-P wrote:
The client messages me afterwards saying she thought bartering was more informal and that she wouldn't have to sign a contract.

I can see her point.

A-M-P wrote:
Whats your take on barters are you informal or do you have everything written down? Are you more laid back etc am I being to demanding. I write everything down even for testing so there are no misunderstandings.

When I've done barter, I often hold back in delivering the pictures until the other party holds up their end of the bargain. Its the only real leverage I feel I have. & even then, I really don't take on those kinds of assignments unless I fully expect it to go sour.

Shot By Adam wrote:
The other possibility is that once you brought up the issue of taxes, she probably thought that since you were reporting it she would have to as well, and didn't want to do that.

I remember once I was looking to hire an assistant for a large, multi-day shoot and when they realized that I was going to have to issue them a 1099, they backed out because they didn't want it reported.

That certainly could be the main reason. Just as a reminder, if the value of the barter or payment is less than $600 (in the year) then no 1099 is required. The OP has not been  back to the thread, but we do not know if what was stated was the actual wording of the contract or a paraphrase for purposes of posting here.

Eye of the World wrote:
That certainly could be the main reason. Just as a reminder, if the value of the barter or payment is less than $600 (in the year) then no 1099 is required. The OP has not been  back to the thread, but we do not know if what was stated was the actual wording of the contract or a paraphrase for purposes of posting here.

It was a paraphrase, The other person never even saw the contract because when I mention I would email a contract for bartering services she said I thought this was more informal.


The contract is written by a lawyer and is not the exact wordings I wrote here because honestly the contract is much longer for me to copy paste here.

Anyhow it was not a cancellation type thing. I am providing services to her in august because she cannot wait until september for the shoot she needs the photos right away but she will not be delivering the items she is bartering to me until september because she won't have them until then. So it is more of a if I provide my services,deliver images in august  that they cannot run away and not deliver the items they promise to deliver to me in septemeber type of thing. If something happens that she fails to deliver the items she promised then I need to be paid in some form for the services I provided to her.

Solas wrote:

It's paraphrase she never saw the contract because she backed out as soon as I mentioned  I would email a bartering contract.

MDWM wrote:
How bad do you want what they are offering and who gets their end of the barter first?

If it happens simultaneously or you pocket the goods first, I wouldn't worry about the agreement. However, you should have something in writing that is very specific to what is being bartered so there are no misunderstandings. Also, each party needs to sign off that the barter is complete.

If you have to execute your end of the barter first, some sort of a written agreement is advised. If they're reluctant, then you're probably dodging a bullet.  Move on but then again, it goes back to how bad do you want this. I certainly wouldn't deliver the complete job without getting something in return.

I was doing the services first. Shooting in August and she would be delivering me some items in september.

I felt having a contract would avoid me doing the job, delivering images and she  then running away with never delivering what was promised.

Vector One Photography wrote:
You don't have to do a written contract if you do the exchange at the same time or do it in escrow.  I think the line that may have bothered her ( and would bother me) is that if you fail to do your half you have to pay cash for the services rendered by the other party. Would have changed it to the other person having to return and never use whatever you gave them and if they don't return it then they have to pay. 

Locks only keep the honest people honest and contracts are only needed if you get cheated.

If I do a photo session, retouch photos and deliver them and then they don't deliver what they promised they cannot return my time how would that work.

Shei  P wrote:
I woudn't sign contract as vaguely worded as that either.

Ummm my contract doesn't say exactly that is a paraphrase for my post and anyhow she never even read the contract.  also what is vague  that if one of the parties fulfills their part and the other one doesn't then the one who did fulfill their part needs to be fairly compensated how is that vague I think that is fair if I give you something and you take it and then don't give me what you were supposed to then it should be expected that you will be held accountable for some sort of payment. You cannot just choose not to provide what you promised after you  received what you wanted. The exact wording is above written by a lawyer I don't think is vague.

Shot By Adam wrote:
The other possibility is that once you brought up the issue of taxes, she probably thought that since you were reporting it she would have to as well, and didn't want to do that.

This.

A-M-P wrote:
Anyhow she got back to me and told me to go ahead and send the contract after she read it she only asked me to revise the name of the items she was providing and she agreed to sign it. So it was not the wording of the contract that made her scared since she never even read it at the time. I guess a lot of people are just used to verbal agreements nowadays and they might be a little scared when someone mentions a contract.

I just like for no misunderstandings to be raised later on saying well I thought this or that having something clear cut and saying exactly what each party will be providing avoids confusion in the future since everyone knows exactly what to expect.

I even make contracts for Testing /TFP now saying exactly what I will be providing . That way people cannot message me later saying well I assumed I was getting this or that etc that way they know exactly what to expect without any surprises. Maybe I'm too formal but I feel more safe this way and I understand if people would choose not to work with me because of it but I think I am willing to make the sacrifice of maybe losing a couple of clients but atleast I get to keep peace of mind.

Thanks everyone

So your post was nothing but a rant. Since you two couldnt come to terms.

And...what are you going to do when a model breaches your TFP contract....small claims court?

I dont know any model that has signed a verbose contract for a TFP, and I know lots of models and I mean a lot

https://instagram.com/shei_p/

Shei  P wrote:
So your post was nothing but a rant. Since you two couldnt come to terms.

And...what are you going to do when a model breaches your TFP contract....small claims court?

I dont know any model that has signed a verbose contract for a TFP, and I know lots of models and I mean a lot

https://instagram.com/shei_p/

How will a model breach a TFP contract the contract is just there so they know what they are going to get like example You will receive x amount of images in exchange of you modeling for x amount of time. It is there so there  are no misunderstandings and they cannot come back saying oh I want all the raw files or some other demand.  Yeah you can know a lot of models I don't know  why you have to throw that condescending comment my way. I also know a lot of models I have been a photographer for 8 years and both my kids are professional models working in national campaigns I work in the industry and with plenty of agencies and the agents have me sign a contract for testing stating how many images they will get in return etc and the terms of the testing session this is signed by the agent and me . Please keep your arrogance to yourself.


Oh and I don't know what the instagram link is for. Just because you were in a reality TV show don't mean jack to me and I don't know if you are posting the link here to somehow back up your credibility. By the way I have worked with plenty of girls from ANTM and major agencies. So I'm not a newbie to the industry.


My post was not a rant. I asked others how they personally handle bartering and gave an example situation on that I myself like to have it in writing.

A-M-P wrote:

How will a model breach a TFP contract the contract is just there so they know what they are going to get like example You will receive x amount of images in exchange of you modeling for x amount of time. It is there so there  are no misunderstandings and they cannot come back saying oh I want all the raw files or some other demand.  Yeah you can know a lot of models I don't know  why you have to throw that condescending comment my way. I also know a lot of models I have been a photographer for 8 years and both my kids are professional models working in national campaigns I work in the industry and with plenty of agencies and the agents have me sign a contract for testing stating how many images they will get in return etc and the terms of the testing session etc . Please keep your arrogance to yourself.


Oh and I don't know what the instagram link is for. Just because you were in a reality TV show don't mean jack to me and I don't know if you are posting the link here to somehow back up your credibility. By the way I worked with plenty of girls from ANTM and major agencies. So I'm not a newbie to the industry.


My post was not a rant. I asked others how they personally handle bartering and gave an example situation on that I myself like to have it in writing.

Yeah all your posts are usually rants, this is nothing new.

Shei  P wrote:
Yeah all your posts are usually rants, this is nothing new.

You don't even know me I haven't even been active on MM for quite some while. My profile was inactive here for almost 2 years so I don't know what you are sipping on.

You have been a member in MM since 2011/ I have been a member here since 2007 and my profile was inactive since 2012 until early this year of 2015 that I decided to reactivated. So yeah I don't know who you are confusing me with because I have never even seen you in the forums.

Shei  P wrote:

So your post was nothing but a rant. Since you two couldnt come to terms.

And...what are you going to do when a model breaches your TFP contract....small claims court?

I dont know any model that has signed a verbose contract for a TFP, and I know lots of models and I mean a lot

https://instagram.com/shei_p/

If anything a basic TF contract would protect the model more than the photographer. Sounds like more of a verbal agreement so everyone is on the same page.

I sometimes have to sign a contract for editorials with agencies ( which is TF tearsheets) and they are fairly verbose -- and originate from the agency end.

Some people like to make shit out of nothing.

Chicchowmein wrote:
If anything a basic TF contract would protect the model more than the photographer. Sounds like more of a verbal agreement so everyone is on the same page.

I sometimes have to sign a contract for editorials with agencies ( which is TF tearsheets) and they are fairly verbose -- and originate from the agency end.

Some people like to make shit out of nothing.

I don't know how  a relationship between model/photographer and agent/photographer is any different other than the agent is acting on behalf of the model.

The agreement It is definetely there to protect the model stating exactly what they are getting that way there is no confusions plus if I don't deliver photos etc as agreed  they have it in writing what I was supposed to give them.

This is a working relationship to me not hey come over lets hang out and take some pictures for me I treated just like any other client who would be hiring me and paying me with money.

Anyhow I don't even do TFP anymore but it was an example of what I used to do.

Shei  P wrote:
^^ Yeah, well and agency/photographer relationship is much different than a model/photographer relationship. Written contracts between a model/photographer for TFP...yeah whose world are you living in.

And where is all your work with major agencies since you claim so much experience ? links please or it never happened

Wow.

What is your deal?

I personally have seen her work on the agency boards in Florida.

Chicchowmein wrote:
Some people like to make shit out of nothing.

Thats my point exactly, she does it all the time.

A-M-P wrote:

I don't know how  a relationship between model/photographer and agent/photographer is any different other than the agent is acting on behalf of the model.

The agency just wants to make sure that no one is getting commercial usage and that photographers don't charge the girls for tearsheets, sometimes they specify no nudity or implied if the girl is a minor. Also talks about length of time for delivery of images. Though I have worked with the same agency before and never signed anything -- I don't know if it is because I was working with a different booker or whether they had an issue or whether it is because we have had previous issues with designers picking up images from my website or blog and using them commercially ( which I immediately informed the agency about).

Chicchowmein wrote:

Wow.

What is your deal?

I personally have seen her work on the agency boards in Florida.

I have pics i have shot that have been seen on agency boards in Florida, its no big deal

Shei  P wrote:

Thats my point exactly, she does it all the time.

It wasn't directed at her.