Bourbon Street wrote:
One boy friend told them they should be a model and then the new boyfriend got jealous and told them not. It can happen in the blink of an eye.

CamelliaFlower wrote:
I don't know if I'd call that so much a "catfish" (which would imply that the person being advertised is not the reality, i.e. a dude pretending to be a girl online) so much ask just some rando thought it would be a fun way to get attention to make a modeling profile and see who bites.

I worked with a photographer who told me he used to get this all the time and it really frustrated him, but then he spoke to another 'tog who said some people just make the modeling profile just to see if someone would be *interested* in taking photos of them--it's a form of validation for them if someone contacts them to shoot, and in contacting them you've already given him/her what they wanted so they don't bother to follow up with an actual session.

In any case I'm an advocate of exchanging contact information for a form of communication besides Model Mayhem, like a phone number or at the very least an email, if you plan on seriously discussing a shoot.

neoracer wrote:
Yea I think that might be true in some cases, in others its supposedly (in 1 case) someone who worked for 'Playboy' (one of the sites prob) and was all excited to shoot and never opened the replys for weeks and then did read them, and still never replied so Im like..wtf..if you dont wanna shoot just say so?! Most of the time I get no responses at all out of this site, in 6 months I've gotten 1 good person to work with, but shes often busy so I cant shoot with her all the time but..1 in 6 months is pretty pathetic for a modelling site.
Good advice about the contact info thanks!

Well, this is a big one, but how are you contacting models?

Are you clear and concise? Are you super casual and vague--"Hey wanna shoot together?"--or do you open communication by explaining what you're looking to do, why you think they'd be suitable for the project, shoot location, look, etc.? How much information do you give?

And how much does your offer suit what the model says in her profile she's interested in doing? Are you offering paid work or TFP? If you're having that hard a time booking models (and you're right, 1 model in 6 months is abysmal), then I think it's more likely that something about your approach isn't working, whether if it's just that you aren't approaching models the right way to elicit interest, or if you're contacting the wrong models for what you want to do.

If all you ever do is message newbies who haven't done a single job with other MM members before, that's the problem--the chances are higher that they're just an attention-seeker without any real intention of doing work. Find a model in your area that has a few credits with other photographers.

As to the matter of getting no reply, It's generally frowned upon to give absolutely zero response, but as a matter of fact there is a topic in the Model Colloquy *right now* from a model who's decided to simply stop responded to offers she was not interested in because she got a hostile reply when she turned down an offer politely.

In fact I myself have gotten pretty hostile responses, once even without a message from me at all (I intended to reply later in the day but he messaged me back all pissed off before I had a chance).

So while the general idea of "Just say not interested if you aren't" is sound, it's sometimes easier said than done if a model has had negative experiences in the past of turning down an offer and receiving a nasty message back.

And frankly it goes both ways--I've contacted dozens of photographers who state they're looking to shoot TFP who read my message and never reply.

Bottom line, don't take it personally.

CamelliaFlower wrote:
Well, this is a big one, but how are you contacting models?

Are you clear and concise? Are you super casual and vague--"Hey wanna shoot together?"--or do you open communication by explaining what you're looking to do, why you think they'd be suitable for the project, shoot location, look, etc.? How much information do you give?

And how much does your offer suit what the model says in her profile she's interested in doing? Are you offering paid work or TFP? If you're having that hard a time booking models (and you're right, 1 model in 6 months is abysmal), then I think it's more likely that something about your approach isn't working, whether if it's just that you aren't approaching models the right way to elicit interest, or if you're contacting the wrong models for what you want to do.

If all you ever do is message newbies who haven't done a single job with other MM members before, that's the problem--the chances are higher that they're just an attention-seeker without any real intention of doing work. Find a model in your area that has a few credits with other photographers.

As to the matter of getting no reply, It's generally frowned upon to give absolutely zero response, but as a matter of fact there is a topic in the Model Colloquy *right now* from a model who's decided to simply stop responded to offers she was not interested in because she got a hostile reply when she turned down an offer politely.

In fact I myself have gotten pretty hostile responses, once even without a message from me at all (I intended to reply later in the day but he messaged me back all pissed off before I had a chance).

So while the general idea of "Just say not interested if you aren't" is sound, it's sometimes easier said than done if a model has had negative experiences in the past of turning down an offer and receiving a nasty message back.

And frankly it goes both ways--I've contacted dozens of photographers who state they're looking to shoot TFP who read my message and never reply.

Bottom line, don't take it personally.

neoracer wrote:
Yea I mean I've been on and off this site since 2006 and more lately my network has been on Facebook, but since Im in a completely new area for half a year I turned to MM to try and work with new people. I've done over 130 shoots so Im usually pretty good about talking to models, Im easy going and flexible and to be honest I never even get that far with people here any more! lol Im pretty detailed about what I wanna shoot ( I have a pinterest shoot ideas album) and usually pre-scout the location and send pictures from that if its unusual. No problem with escorts or anything bring the whole damn family to the shoot if you want!
But its like, I got favorable responses and then they just completely stopped communicating. Who does that? Which makes me think like someone said, they just wanna get the influx of replys for shoots or just catfishing and get off on all the guys here clamoring over themselves to get shoots set up!

And yea I dont take it personally, its just frustrating to feel things are going well then BAM! Nothing..makes it very hard to make plans around the weather and in my life too. Wasting time waiting on someone who might reply when I could be pursuing other opportunities..

Well if it isn't as you claim the "how" of how you contact models...it's probably the "who". As in, you're reaching out to a demographic of model-wannabes who aren't serious about booking work. The recession hasn't affected the available pool of pretty girls, and lots of pretty girls like attention, but not all of them are willing to do the legwork involved to be a model.

I'm not familiar with your area but it's also possible that you've just moved to a city with fewer serious models and more local girls wanting a quick ego boost, in which case it may be necessary to expand the circumference of your search and consider offering to pay for a model's travel fees if they will come to you, or travel to them. Try looking in nearby metropolitan cities, or creating a model casting notice. A casting notice isn't a surefire way to weed out people playing around, but at least the models who apply are motivated enough to be actively seeking out work.

As far as ceasing communication, how far into the convo do they stop replying? Is there a pattern, does the discussion of payment ever come up? Is it during the discussion of the shoot concept? Also there *is* such thing as giving too much information (although you'd have to really overdo it to be "too much") which could be overwhelming and cause interest to wane because it makes you seem like a high-maintenance person to work with who has too high of expectations.

CamelliaFlower wrote:

neoracer wrote:
As far as ceasing communication, how far into the convo do they stop replying? Is there a pattern, does the discussion of payment ever come up? Is it during the discussion of the shoot concept? Also there *is* such thing as giving too much information (although you'd have to really overdo it to be "too much") which could be overwhelming and cause interest to wane because it makes you seem like a high-maintenance person to work with who has too high of expectations.

neoracer wrote:
Yep after they say they love my work ( so have seen it and know what to expect from me) then when I go to actually make plans to *do* something..they never even read the following messages. So just initial contact, acceptance of some kind they would like to work then...nothing! lol That is the pattern lately. And I mean..messages unread..for days and in some cases over a week and a half..lol how...how...can people work this way?! Maybe someone comes a long and offers big $$$$ well..I cant do that, Im shooting as a hobby not for paid projects.

I can guarantee that almost all the people you contact aren't making all or even a significant portion of their income through modeling. For most of them this is probably more of a hobby on the backburner or a pipe dream than a "job".

So to answer your question "how can people work this way?" They aren't. It isn't work to them, they're playing around. They probably have a real job that pays their bills that takes precedence over arranging a photoshoot for fun.

As to the point in the conversation where they stop responding after their first reply but read your response: so you've said you are very forthcoming about ideas and often go scout locations and send photos. Are any of these ideas coming from the model? Or are all the ideas you present your own? Could be that the model you've contacted is just not interested in your ideas, or you overwhelmed them like I mentioned. Saying they like your port is not the same as confirming you will definitely be working together. And frankly it's not that bad if they back out immediately, better that then you have a concept location and date all set and THEN they cancel. If that's the case I don't even consider that *that* big of a loss because I didn't really spend much time on it outside of an introduction and a few cursory ideas.

CamelliaFlower wrote:

neoracer wrote:
As to the point in the conversation where they stop responding after their first reply but read your response: so you've said you are very forthcoming about ideas and often go scout locations and send photos. Are any of these ideas coming from the model? Or are all the ideas you present your own? Could be that the model you've contacted is just not interested in your ideas, or you overwhelmed them like I mentioned. Saying they like your port is not the same as confirming you will definitely be working together. And frankly it's not that bad if they back out immediately, better that then you have a concept location and date all set and THEN they cancel. If that's the case I don't even consider that *that* big of a loss because I didn't really spend much time on it outside of an introduction and a few cursory ideas.

neoracer wrote:
No its not like I said I wanna shoot porn, its just the kinda stuff you see in my port and in my experience if a model doesn't like my idea she'll usually come forth with some of her own, and Im cool with that too! They usually just dont stop talking to me because they didn't like my initial shoot idea I've never had that happen outside of this place.  But just to illustrate my point, when someone says 'lets shoot' should I not take that as a confirmation we're gonna work together? If not then..I dont understand basic language lol>>>





Both cases they never even read my reply/shoot suggestions or times of shoot directly after these messages so..

An idea doesn't have to be pornographic for someone to be uninterested in it. I said uninterested, not offended.

And "let's shoot" is like the model/photographer version of the type of vague noncommital opening message that gets spammed on dating sites like "hey you seem cool". No you shouldn't take it as confirmation of anything because it isn't a commitment and says zero about your work. They probably sent that message to dozens of photographers in your area.

In these cases they didn't bother to read your reply because they weren't interested enough in actually working with you to see what you had to say. Maybe a better offer came up or they just lost interest.

Since you're posting screenshots anyway it might be helpful to post the replies you responded with that got ignored.

neoracer wrote:
No, 'Lets shoot' means..Lets shoot. Whats the point of language if you dont mean what you say? And they were interested enough (or fakers doing their thing) to say 'Lets shoot' or they woulda not even bothered to answer me in the first place.

The rest of the messages are irrelevant because they never read them so..eh..

People don't mean what they say all the time. People say things carelessly when they don't mean it and don't have any intention of following through with what they say. Welcome to reality. If you're in denial about that and think every "model" who sends you a short, careless, impersonal message is JUST DYING to shoot with you and that their cut-and-paste email is a commitment to working together...I got a nice park in Manhattan I'd like to sell you. It's right in the center of the island.

Personally as a model if I were genuinely interested in a project I would never respond with such a vague and frankly meaningless message.

The messages from you that they DID read are relevant. Are these messages replies to a message you sent, or did they open contact with you? And if the former, were you as vague on what you were looking to shoot as these replies?

CamelliaFlower wrote:

People don't mean what they say all the time. People say things carelessly when they don't mean it and don't have any intention of following through with what they say. Welcome to reality. If you're in denial about that and think every "model" who sends you a short, careless, impersonal message is JUST DYING to shoot with you and that their cut-and-paste email is a commitment to working together...I got a nice park in Manhattan I'd like to sell you. It's right in the center of the island.

Personally as a model if I were genuinely interested in a project I would never respond with such a vague and frankly meaningless message.

The messages from you that they DID read are relevant. Are these messages replies to a message you sent, or did they open contact with you? And if the former, were you as vague on what you were looking to shoot as these replies?

neoracer wrote:
The messages from you that they DID read are relevant. Are these messages replies to a message you sent, or did they open contact with you? And if the former, were you as vague on what you were looking to shoot as these replies?

neoracer wrote:
How do YOU reply then when someone asks you to shoot?

I specifically put in my profile "if interested please message me with your concept, proposed location, and the conditions of the shoot"...essential info.

I did this because it was a massive turn-off to me to be messaged with something like "Hey! Let's shoot!". It tells me you probably put no thought into this. Maybe that's wrong, maybe you're REALLY passionate about photography and decided you LOVE my look so much you have to shoot me or you'll die, but you wouldn't know it from that boring-ass message.

I don't need to be wooed and if you're not sure about the details yet fine, but some basic information would be nice, otherwise how am I supposed to decide if I want to shoot with you?

Now, if someone messages me with "Hey! Let's shoot!" I'll know they couldn't be assed to even take the 2 minutes to read my profile.

If they give some indication that they've at least looked through my profile and portfolio, I take a look at their portfolio--does their style and genre of work interest me? Do I like their work on a personal aesthetic level? Would doing a shoot with them be a positive addition to my portfolio?

Sometimes I need to sit on the initial message for a day or two before I respond if I'm not 100% sold, but once we start actually exchanging messages I'm generally pretty prompt about replying.

So for a first-reply to an offer I decided I'm interested in pursuing, I might say something like:

"Hello Neoracer!

Thank you for expressing your interest in working together. I've taken a look at your port and I especially love the shot of the girl in the pale pink tank top--I like how it has such a soft colour palette in contrast with the dynamic post and lighting. I'd be happy to discuss arranging a shoot together. Do you have any concepts or themes you're interested in shooting or a location in mind?"

Note that none of this is an actual commitment TO shooting together. In fact until we settle on a date, location, time, and mutual compensation, as far as I am concerned neither of us have committed to anything.

Another example, this one is an actual response I just sent off to a message I received today:

Hey V---!

I'd love to talk about setting up a potential shoot! I prefer shooting in outdoor locations as well--New York has so many great views to offer.

I like your idea of a beach shoot, although given the travel time and my usual schedule it may take some careful planning.

For your description of "dark and muted tones with moods and emotion", do you have any example images you could show me to get a better idea of what you're looking for?

Camellia


Essentially, to me the key is to *express interest*. Especially if the shoot is trade, and I want to do it, I will involve myself in conceptualizing the shoot, and actually contribute some meaningful ideas to the discussion.

Not just "yeah haha I'll shoot some pretty pictures with you but you'll have to do all the thinking and I'll just show up (or not) and stand in front of your camera".

I wouldn't claim my reaction is necessarily a typical one. I have an art background and a strong creative drive, so whatever I dedicate myself to actually working on I'm very invested in the outcome. Also in terms of conduct, I have a lot of "rules" I set for myself, such as "thou shalt not use chatspeak when talking shop (or ever, actually) and thou shalt type in full sentences and use punctuation". And until I get to know a photographer more through talking about the shoot, I'm generally pretty professional and formal in my responses--you're not chitchatting, you're arranging a business meeting.

A lot of models on MM are young and ultracasual and don't know how to "act professional", which is why you get a lot of Unread messages, cancellations, and flakes. Still though, sometimes youthful nature works for them. I've been kind of serious my whole life and that translates to extreme difficulty emoting in front of the camera. When I try to smile it looks like I'm having a stroke.

CamelliaFlower wrote:
I specifically put in my profile "if interested please message me with your concept, proposed location, and the conditions of the shoot"...essential info.

I did this because it was a massive turn-off to me to be messaged with something like "Hey! Let's shoot!". It tells me you probably put no thought into this. Maybe that's wrong, maybe you're REALLY passionate about photography and decided you LOVE my look so much you have to shoot me or you'll die, but you wouldn't know it from that boring-ass message.

I don't need to be wooed and if you're not sure about the details yet fine, but some basic information would be nice, otherwise how am I supposed to decide if I want to shoot with you?

Now, if someone messages me with "Hey! Let's shoot!" I'll know they couldn't be assed to even take the 2 minutes to read my profile.

If they give some indication that they've at least looked through my profile and portfolio, I take a look at their portfolio--does their style and genre of work interest me? Do I like their work on a personal aesthetic level? Would doing a shoot with them be a positive addition to my portfolio?

Sometimes I need to sit on the initial message for a day or two before I respond if I'm not 100% sold, but once we start actually exchanging messages I'm generally pretty prompt about replying.

So for a first-reply to an offer I decided I'm interested in pursuing, I might say something like:

"Hello Neoracer!

Thank you for expressing your interest in working together. I've taken a look at your port and I especially love the shot of the girl in the pale pink tank top--I like how it has such a soft colour palette in contrast with the dynamic post and lighting. I'd be happy to discuss arranging a shoot together. Do you have any concepts or themes you're interested in shooting or a location in mind?"

Note that none of this is an actual commitment TO shooting together. In fact until we settle on a date, location, time, and mutual compensation, as far as I am concerned neither of us have committed to anything.

Another example, this one is an actual response I just sent off to a message I received today:

Hey V---!

I'd love to talk about setting up a potential shoot! I prefer shooting in outdoor locations as well--New York has so many great views to offer.

I like your idea of a beach shoot, although given the travel time and my usual schedule it may take some careful planning.

For your description of "dark and muted tones with moods and emotion", do you have any example images you could show me to get a better idea of what you're looking for?

Camellia


Essentially, to me the key is to *express interest*. Especially if the shoot is trade, and I want to do it, I will involve myself in conceptualizing the shoot, and actually contribute some meaningful ideas to the discussion.

Not just "yeah haha I'll shoot some pretty pictures with you but you'll have to do all the thinking and I'll just show up (or not) and stand in front of your camera".

I wouldn't claim my reaction is necessarily a typical one. I have an art background and a strong creative drive, so whatever I dedicate myself to actually working on I'm very invested in the outcome. Also in terms of conduct, I have a lot of "rules" I set for myself, such as "thou shalt not use chatspeak when talking shop (or ever, actually) and thou shalt type in full sentences and use punctuation". And until I get to know a photographer more through talking about the shoot, I'm generally pretty professional and formal in my responses--you're not chitchatting, you're arranging a business meeting.

A lot of models on MM are young and ultracasual and don't know how to "act professional", which is why you get a lot of Unread messages, cancellations, and flakes. Still though, sometimes youthful nature works for them. I've been kind of serious my whole life and that translates to extreme difficulty emoting in front of the camera. When I try to smile it looks like I'm having a stroke.

Grayscale Photo wrote:
My understanding is new female model profiles are usually inundated with variations of impersonal "Let's shoot" messages. I'm sure the first two or three are flattering.  After the 20th or 40th, the new model comes to realize there are a large number of photographers constantly trolling the "New to MM" listings.  Flattery turns into reality and some wish they hadn't expressed interest so quickly in open-ended commitments.

I had good experiences by pitching an actual idea for a shoot with some indication of why I thought the model was a good fit for the idea based on their profile and existing work.

Exactly.

Impersonal messages get old and boring, and boring is death to creative achievement, which is why I always advocate for including at least some information about WHY you're interested in shooting with a person if you want to come off as genuine.

neoracer wrote:
Well thats a great answer and I wish everyone was as thoughtful and professional as you. 99% of people I deal with are not like that and we 'usually' get on just fine, outside of this website I should say. Its a whole weird thing here I guess..I dont get it. I'll stick to facebook from now on and when I move out of this area. Too bad really I hate wasting my time doing 'nothing'. I'd much rather be out shooting and thats all I wanted :

I think a part of it is that ModelMayhem is very detached and insular compared to other social platforms used to solicit modeling work, like Instagram or Facebook. It's a much smaller community because *most* people aren't signed up to it so it's not as much a part of our regular lives as social media.

Maybe try Instagram, I heard it's really easy to connect with models on there.

CamelliaFlower wrote:
I don't know if I'd call that so much a "catfish" (which would imply that the person being advertised is not the reality, i.e. a dude pretending to be a girl online) so much ask just some rando thought it would be a fun way to get attention to make a modeling profile and see who bites.

I worked with a photographer who told me he used to get this all the time and it really frustrated him, but then he spoke to another 'tog who said some people just make the modeling profile just to see if someone would be *interested* in taking photos of them--it's a form of validation for them if someone contacts them to shoot, and in contacting them you've already given him/her what they wanted so they don't bother to follow up with an actual session.

In any case I'm an advocate of exchanging contact information for a form of communication besides Model Mayhem, like a phone number or at the very least an email, if you plan on seriously discussing a shoot.

And then using that form of communication! I find that I learn a lot more with a telephone call (or better yet an in-person pre-shoot meeting whenever practical--I like the Barnes & Noble coffee shops for this.  If I'm stood up I can at least browse the magazines--much better than wasting half a day getting ready for a shoot that never happens.)  And I find that the model that is willing to invest a little bit of time and self with an in-person contact is much less likely to flake when it comes to a shoot.  And it's a whole lot easier to resolve any questions about goals, concepts, makeup, wardrobe, boundaries, etc. when talking to a real live person than when trying to type a message on a cell phone while trying to get to the next shoot (or class) when you're already five minutes late!

All IMHO as always, of course.

neoracer wrote:
This has happened to me twice in the past 4 weeks..I find a brand new model who has joined here, I message them about wanting to shoot..they reply 'YES!' Love your work!" "Lets shoot!" so then I proceed to make arrangements then..they never read the reply messages again if not for week(s) and nothing..also they never update their ports beyond what they originally joined with and Im assuming they were inundated with lots of other offers so..smells fishy to me. It shouldn't be THIS hard to find talent to work with geezuz..another wasted weekend...

I feel your frustration!
I started working with a new model who was referred to me by one of my favorite models (who no longer models, but we are meeting this Saturday for coffee and to just catch up). She modeled 4 times and each time was great!! She even emailed me and said she loved modeling and couldn't wait for our next session. Well, next session came and she was a no show! I emailed her her a few times over the last month and every email went unanswered. So, I suspect IT IS THE NEW BOYFRIEND MONSTER AGAIN! I've lost TOO many models that way. Nothing you can do but move on!