Laura UnBound wrote:
I don't know who you're talking about tony, but they certainly don't fit in line with what I or the several dozen freelance models and hundreds and hundreds of photographers we know have experienced in the last decade.

If being pretty is all it takes there wouldn't be scores of pretty newbies confused why they can't get paid work, or ANY work for that matter. Not so much since the forums went to shit, but a few years ago there would be at least one thread a week from a girl who just signed up a week ago not understanding why it was so hard to find someone to work with her. She wasn't ugly. She wasn't even rude half the time. She was just inexperienced and people don't jump up and down for a chance to work with a person who has no idea what they're doing and can't prove that they're going to be a worthwhile endeavour, much less pay them for it.

If experience and know-how meant nothing there wouldn't be dozens of veteran freelance models who actually gave a damn about whether or not they're any good at what they do, and care about their reputations. Hell, photographers love to rant that a pretty face is a dime a dozen so there's no need to pay a model when they can just get a different one for free, but if that were actually the case there would be no industry in freelance modelling. I and every other professional freelancer would consistently be passed over for equally or more pretty girls who have not a clue what they're doing. The reality is that a deer in headlights is actually very disappointing to a great many people.

The freelance industry is not the fashion industry, in this industry experience, and a portfolio proving that experience, matter quite a bit. Yes, there are the rare birds with extraordinary looks who get to fast-track their way to the top, but for the vast majority of us its hard slow-going work and we pay our dues.

Models are paid based on their look.   In some cases working with members of a site like this and building a good reputation for showing up and being professional helps as does networking.   However the key is how a model looks.   Here is proof of my point.   https://www.metart.com/ is a very popular site and the over whelming majority of models featured were shot and shown their first time.   If those models were on MM, photographers would climb over themselves to pay them.   Experience means little.   In fact I would say having a really polished and slick book can work against models because many of those who pay have concerns they can't match the work shown.

I constantly see posts from several experienced models who complain they can't get work.   The key to success as a model isn't some great book which is subjective.   Its being seen as attractive*.   Having a good figure and networking.   On a site where what's seen as good is some girl with her legs askew I often wonder if we know what's good.   Having a great book matters for industry models because that book is being shown to art directors and clients who are paying lots of $$$.   On sites like this all the average model needs to be offered paid work is be attractive and naked.   I know a freelance model on Facebook who was flown to NY and paid based on SELFIES.   Photographers can have dues to pay.
Many jobs do require experience and sometimes you have to be an apprentice to get that experience.   Models are paid based on their overall look.   This includes freelance.   What some people mistake for experience is the talent of those that shoot them.  Phillipe or TH Taylor or Richard Talent.... can make new models look great.   

Edit:   Magazines like Playboy don't tend to want or use experienced models and would often hold castings at colleges.
          They would accept candids to consider new models.   Same for Penthouse and Hustler.   
         

*Beauty is also subjective.

Vintagevista wrote:
I doubt that my experience is the norm - but, everyone that I ever shot with, (that was in Playboy or Penthouse as a model in any capacity), paid their fucking dues - be it lots of working the trenches at shootouts and dealing with barely above GWC's - or working the system of international editions, special editions and cyber to make it to the main magazine.

People fail to understand that even just becoming a nude arts or erotic/adult model is HARD work to get off the ground. You don't just throw up a booty glam photo or two, then suddenly be all over the world, making tons of money and have people swarming you for work. And even then, only a small fraction of models will find a way to make it a sustainable living wage.

You can still spend years shooting trade, paying for port updates and hustling your ass off to even get up to being a consistently working nude model.

EVERY model who's ever been able to actually live modestly on his/her income (agency or not) had to bust their asses to get there. Regardless of content, regardless of anything else. I've said it before and I'll say it again - working as a model can't be something you do for the money only (despite what so many on MM believe). The money is feast or famine, comes and goes in waves and it requires an absolute love for and devotion to what you do. Ask any successful agency fashion model. Ask any successful freelance glamour girl. It's truly a labor of love.

People think lesser of freelancers in non-mainstream genres, or they think it's "lowering yourself." That's bullshit; it's hard to carve out a life as a model, regardless of what you shoot. Everyone pays their dues.

Laura UnBound wrote:
If being pretty is all it takes there wouldn't be scores of pretty newbies confused why they can't get paid work, or ANY work for that matter.

"pretty" is totally inaccurate. the term is "marketable" we are talking two (or more) different types of "models". we are also talking about different markets or clients with various pay ranges.

1. hobbyist photographers
2. eye candy market
3. art market
4. promotional market
5. commercial market

most models are not aware nor could differentiate between them. the earnings in one market goes from zero to 10-20k per year. the earnings in another go from zero - 300k per year with very few in the 1M+. yes, most might have a go at the hobbyist/art/eye candy market, most of which, is less clothes and most don't care too much about dress size and looks. in commercial catalog work, sample size is everything.

as long as people do not confuse the different markets, their requirements and the pay - it's all fine. some models will be able to work in all, but that's not a simple thing. experience does help, but in most cases, it's not necessary. prime example is the eye candy market. specifically playboy with a good team and plenty of pros who know how to work with inexperienced, even frightened newbies. the art market is where experience is a major advantage - but always, with a good photographer, it's less so. it's an advantage, not a necessity.

95% or more of wannabes will not make it nor get paid anything. it's a nice dream. most of what we hear of "can't get paid" are from them. that's the reality. members here can try to make them feel better. they may even get a few hundred dollars eventually, but getting steady work and making a living...

SCOTT LAPORTE wrote:
Hire a photographer to help show your look and style

Someone here got it right!

Tiph wrote:
How do you get modeling experience when you need modeling experience to get work? I'm assuming that the main reason I don't hear back when I respond to castings is because my portfolio is lacking, but even for TF jobs decent photographers (not GWC) don't respond.

How do you break that cycle?

I recommend two things

1. Re write you bio. It suggests you here for an argument not a collaberation. Much of it can be left to the negotiation phase. And much can be written to say the same thing but read better. For example, instead if hard limits etc etc, say "Ill pose nude if its tasteful and useful for the story we're telling." (tasteful is the only word that really matters).

2 don't belabour the paid situation. If its depends, then its depends. Leave it at that.

And I said 2 points but here is a bonus, message 12 senior models in your area, offer to buy them a coffees and muffin if they'll meet and mentor you for 30 minutes. I'd be surprised if 4-5 didn't say yes. Suck their brains dry, and consider what's worked for them.

Good luck.

Natural Means wrote:

I recommend two things

1. Re write you bio. It suggests you here for an argument not a collaberation. Much of it can be left to the negotiation phase. And much can be written to say the same thing but read better. For example, instead if hard limits etc etc, say "Ill pose nude if its tasteful and useful for the story we're telling." (tasteful is the only word that really matters).

2 don't belabour the paid situation. If its depends, then its depends. Leave it at that.

And I said 2 points but here is a bonus, message 12 senior models in your area, offer to buy them a coffees and muffin if they'll meet and mentor you for 30 minutes. I'd be surprised if 4-5 didn't say yes. Suck their brains dry, and consider what's worked for them.

Good luck.

The word "tasteful" doesn't mean anything. Just like "classy". They're garbage words that leave things up for misunderstanding. I shoot bondage, I think my bondage nudes are plenty tasteful, but the OP clearly doesn't as she lists it as something she won't do. It's far better to just come out with what you are and aren't willing to shoot so the guy wanting to shoot bondage will not bother to contact you and waste both of your time. If being blunt and honest sounds argumentative and combative then you probably weren't going to work well together anyway.

Laura UnBound wrote:

The word "tasteful" doesn't mean anything. Just like "classy". They're garbage words that leave things up for misunderstanding. I shoot bondage, I think my bondage nudes are plenty tasteful, but the OP clearly doesn't as she lists it as something she won't do. It's far better to just come out with what you are and aren't willing to shoot so the guy wanting to shoot bondage will not bother to contact you and waste both of your time. If being blunt and honest sounds argumentative and combative then you probably weren't going to work well together anyway.

My point exactly, we would never collaberate with what I see in that bio. I wouldnt shoot op for trade or being paid. I gather that's a problem for OP which is why asking for ideas. My ideas are as valid as yours. Direct your suggestions to OP, not at people offering ideas.

Natural Means wrote:

My point exactly, we would never collaberate with what I see in that bio. I wouldnt shoot op for trade or being paid. I gather that's a problem for OP which is why asking for ideas. My ideas are as valid as yours. Direct your suggestions to OP, not at people offering ideas.

Yeah that's not how the forums work.

I don't see anything wrong with the tone of her bio. I prefer people who are up front and to the point so I don't waste time. Your idea is that she be super vague about her interests and limits and possibly wind up on set with someone whom she has major expectations and personality clashes with? Cuz that's what being vague gets you. If you don't like her personality in her profile how are you going to like it when she's actually on set with you?

Laura UnBound wrote:

Yeah that's not how the forums work.

I don't see anything wrong with the tone of her bio. I prefer people who are up front and to the point so I don't waste time. Your idea is that she be super vague about her interests and limits and possibly wind up on set with someone whom she has major expectations and personality clashes with? Cuz that's what being vague gets you. If you don't like her personality in her profile how are you going to like it when she's actually on set with you?

Reread my original. I didn't say use garbage words that are super vague. I said use positive words.

And negotiate. another way of say come to understanding and agreement on what we're going to achieve.

And geography aside I wouldn't be on the same set as op. I only do this with happy people. Lifes to short to do this with cranky types.

Have great day.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
As usual those who respond to these kinds of threads are more serious then the OP.  She's been here since 2007 yet has 4 photos.   Four photos!   There is absolutely no reason for ANY model to not have a good to great book in a few weeks or months.   Photographers are hungry to shoot.  The OP has a nice figure and face and she is in the fashion capital of the US.   I remember a Black female MM member was offered a trip to Paris to shoot nudes.   She took advantage of that offer and she had selfies and only one pro level session.   


Craigslist and Facebook are FULL of serious offers from people to shoot.   Heck, I see offers that include makeovers and clothing.   Odds are great with a little work she could find nude art shoots that would pay.   Perhaps not the vaunted $100.00 per hour but $25.00 to $40.00 per hour and this with talented people not looking for explicit or pornographic nudes.
The OP doesn't need experience.   She needs desire and bus fare.

I have come across a ton of photographers who say they want to shoot but are NOT serious. They want to talk about it but never do it. They want to date you. They want porn. It's a fantasy for some photographers just like it is for some models.What someone says they want in public can be very far from the truth. I am referring to MM and CL both. Now, I do agree that in NYC the OP should be able to find some work. I really think she needs to ask her question in Critique because I do not agree with some of what you say but can't say specifics or I would be critiquing her.

Laura UnBound wrote:
It could be that you want 150/hour for nudes when actually experienced professionally nude models don't even bill that much. It could be that despite your interesting look, you're short for clothed work so your bread and butter is going to be nudes, but you have no experience in nudes and you don't want to trade for them, and nobody is going to shell out 150 bucks on a newbie.

+1

I have shot some of the more popular/accomplished freelance nude models and have never approached rates of $150 an hour.

Isis22 wrote:

I have come across a ton of photographers who say they want to shoot but are NOT serious. They want to talk about it but never do it. They want to date you. They want porn. It's a fantasy for some photographers just like it is for some models.What someone says they want in public can be very far from the truth. I am referring to MM and CL both. Now, I do agree that in NYC the OP should be able to find some work. I really think she needs to ask her question in Critique because I do not agree with some of what you say but can't say specifics or I would be critiquing her.

I have no idea how many a ton of photographer might be but I do know photographers who have paid for model cruises, workshops, groupshoots, classes, cameras, computers and software.   This stuff isn't cheap and they have no desire to try and date the models they shoot.   I've been at workshops and group shoots where paid models simply didn't show.  I assure you the VAST majority of photographers here and from Facebook and CL want to shoot and are serious.   Do some want porn, perhaps but even some of the porn guys travel to eastern Europe to find models.   

Photographers want to shoot.   ANY attractive model and even most who aren't who does nudes especially TF will have a inbox filled with serious offers within days of joining MM.   I'm not talking about crappy photographers either but talented people.   Models who don't have up to date, good work are FOS.   So let me repeat this.   The OP is in NY.   NY has more photographers then any American city.  She is an attractive woman willing to do nudes.   She has been here since 2007 yet has a total of four photos.   My best bet is its not because she wasn't offered work.

Isis22 wrote:

I have come across a ton of photographers who say they want to shoot but are NOT serious. ...What someone says they want in public can be very far from the truth. I am referring to MM and CL both. Now, I do agree that in NYC the OP should be able to find some work. I really think she needs to ask her question in Critique because I do not agree with some of what you say but can't say specifics or I would be critiquing her.

I agree with you very much about what folks say in public versus what they are really after. Anything I was going to offer was critique so I stopped.
Jen

Tiph wrote:
How do you get modeling experience when you need modeling experience to get work? I'm assuming that the main reason I don't hear back when I respond to castings is because my portfolio is lacking, but even for TF jobs decent photographers (not GWC) don't respond.

How do you break that cycle?

There are actually some awesome groups on Facebook that have talented and experienced photographers who are established and just looking to do some fun new shoots for TFP. I get quite a few fun concepts done through there and have been published with one photographer from a group.

Search for groups that start with photographers or models or your location ( i.e. New York Photographers and Models Group) and go from there.


GOOD LUCK!

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
To the OP if she is still reading responses. So I hope to go to New York in the fall.  I am a well established art nude photographer.

If you are serious about getting images to improve your portfolio I can help you.  If you PM me I will set aside time to work with you and shoot you for at least tasteful nudes you can use in your portfolio.

I will do this as a trade shoot only, because your port is not reflective of a model who shoots artistic nudes.

So if you have an interest I can help.


Risen Phoenix

OP,

This offer is generous by Risen Phoenix. I know him personally and also know that he has made great work from models who are new to nudes also. I shot with him when I was very rusty, and rarely shooting and he made something each shoot. I look forward to shooting with him again.

Jen
p.s. and my statement about people who say they are here looking to shoot and having more in mind was not necessarily that they had anything bad in mind, but, like anyone, they may have dual reasons for anything they do, (work, job, hobbies.) It also was not exclusive of photographers, I meant models too, like yourself, you may have an ulterior reason for being on this site that you aren't even aware of.