Forums > Model Colloquy > question for traveling models who message photogs

Model

Jen B E

Posts: 213

Hesperia, California, US

crx studios wrote:

+10

OP was just curious why traveling nude models were marketing themselves to a photographer who doesn’t shoot nudes.

He wasn’t attacking nudes, he wasn’t attacking models, he wasn't angry, he wasn’t bragging, he wasn't using the term GWC outside it’s common usage (nor was he attacking them), he wasn’t ranting, and he certainly wasn’t criticizing Helmut Newton, Stieglitz, etc.

This is why most people don’t participate in these forums. No one in their right mind wants to subject themselves to this gauntlet of nonsense.

Exactly,

There was no attack in the op's post.

Jen

May 10 16 10:14 am Link

Model

Jen B E

Posts: 213

Hesperia, California, US

Laura UnBound wrote:
quoting Koryn

This is the exception, not the rule.

In my experience (and I worked as a traveling model, and at other times in mainstream "normal jobs") accepting a normal job means accepting that you will stay in one place, at home. That you will not travel, or go anywhere. You go to your job every day, punch a clock and have to look at the same view, out the same windows, at least five days per week - day after day and year after year.

For me, it has meant needing to stay put for a year at a time - at least. The mainstream job I had before the one I am currently working, it was hell to get a day off. I wanted to go see my parents, because I hadn't seen them in over a year, and my boss gave me grief for it for weeks. I get paid vacation where I'm at now, but I have to put in a year of not calling out (except for sick leave with doctor's note), and an excellent end of the year review, before I'll have access to my vacation pay.

You can either travel, or you can stay put. It's EXTREMELY rare for "average" people to have jobs that allow both end quote Koryn
^^ full stop.

Very true,

I work long hours at my job and my modeling has come from only vacation hours which required travel to get to places where photographers were. However, when I was in Alaska I was very eager to travel away from the 6 months of cold and dark.

Now that my travel job has taken me to Southern California, I am only a few hours drive from photographers and it is an easy drive! However, it is still all on time on my rare days off. I am so grateful for it though.

But, it is not unknown that I am not yet a paid model seeking paid work. With full respect to those who are, I understand there is a market in MM for them to make their living. Great.

Although since my experience here has been purely for creative outlet I think I will keep it that way, even when I am no longer under work contract avoiding salary from other entities. I hope to get paid modeling work but, don't think it will be from here because I'm here for the fun of it.

Jen

May 10 16 10:27 am Link

Photographer

christopher harvey

Posts: 44

New York, New York, US

Just click delete or better yet reply "no thank you". It's not rocket surgery.  I like getting e-mail from traveling models because most of the time I don't browse outside of NYC.  Because of my schedule, I usually only shoot with 1/20 of them, but I welcome anyone trying to do good work.

May 10 16 10:30 am Link

Model

Jen B E

Posts: 213

Hesperia, California, US

Abbitt Photography wrote:

I'm amazed there are as many models who do it as there are.  It seems like a very challenging business model and difficult lifestyle to me.  Compared to local talent, traveling models have high over head and minimal hands on earning hours.

I think the point behind the OP's post is that just because traveling models have higher expenses they need to cover, doesn't mean he has any reason to pay them more than he can get local talent for.  It must be hard to overcome this as a traveling model and my congrats to those who are able to make it work.

I think it stems more from just income, it is an artistic creative drive in there. Definitely has to be a factor, loving what you do will make you do more of it.

Jen

May 10 16 10:31 am Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 26342

Portland, Oregon, US

crx studios wrote:
+10

OP was just curious why traveling nude models were marketing themselves to a photographer who doesn’t shoot nudes.

He wasn’t attacking nudes, he wasn’t attacking models, he wasn't angry, he wasn’t bragging, he wasn't using the term GWC outside it’s common usage (nor was he attacking them), he wasn’t ranting, and he certainly wasn’t criticizing Helmut Newton, Stieglitz, etc.

This is why most people don’t participate in these forums. No one in their right mind wants to subject themselves to this gauntlet of nonsense.

Jen B E wrote:
Exactly,

There was no attack in the op's post.

Jen

Except that he made an issue about a model asking to get paid.

Except that he characterized traveling models as people who typically ask for an inappropriately absurd rate ("eleventy billion dollars").

Heck, the very question suggest that he feels that it is inappropriate for traveling models to seek paying jobs.

Does he really need to know "why me?"  He could do nothing (not respond).  He could tell the model "no, thank you".  No, he made a forum issue out of it.

May 10 16 12:54 pm Link

Photographer

Mikey McMichaels

Posts: 3356

New York, New York, US

Paolo Diavolo wrote:
Why me?
Every so often I get a spam message from a traveling model that goes something like:

[i]
Theres plenty of Photographers in this market and I cant imagine that the Model spammed all of us, even if she had unlimited messages.
So my question is why would a traveling nude model bother with sending me a message?

I don't have any nude images in my portfolio, or any lingerie images typical of the kind of content most traveling Models shoot, so why would they think I'd start shooting that content with them and pay them for it?

Hopefully my work shows that I am experienced, and my profile should convey that I've had plenty of experience and no shortage of collaborations with other members.

If I was a traveling nude model, I'd probably market myself to harmless GWCs.

That's a good idea, and so is expanding your market.

May 10 16 12:57 pm Link

Model

Jen B E

Posts: 213

Hesperia, California, US

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Except that he made an issue about a model asking to get paid.

Except that he characterized traveling models as people who typically ask for an inappropriately absurd rate ("eleventy billion dollars").

Heck, the very question suggest that he feels that it is inappropriate for traveling models to seek paying jobs.

Does he really need to know "why me?"  He could do nothing (not respond).  He could tell the model "no, thank you".  No, he made a forum issue out of it.

A zinger about the getting paid part could just be one personal sidebar in his own post, not to smear the entire context of his post.

You've quoted his payment comment several times in this thread and it is obviously a sticking point for you, likely more for you than his snarky sidebar comment. You are really holding onto it in spite of his repeated calm replies that outshine it.

Maybe you have something bigger going on in your need to defend model who charge, (who do not need defending btw, they are in their own right.) Perhaps you are defending photographers who pay, again, they are in their own right and can do whatever they choose without requiring righteous indignation from anyone about it.

Right?
Jen
p.s. lets face it, he continued to dialogue with the model and has moved beyond his payment snark.

May 10 16 01:49 pm Link

Photographer

DespayreFX

Posts: 1481

Delta, British Columbia, Canada

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Except that he made an issue about a model asking to get paid.

He asked a question, he didn't make an issue out of it.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Except that he characterized traveling models as people who typically ask for an inappropriately absurd rate ("eleventy billion dollars").

Or he's referring specifically to that segment that does seem to quote absurdly high rates, which is a reasonable thing to do.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Heck, the very question suggest that he feels that it is inappropriate for traveling models to seek paying jobs.

No it doesn't, no he isn't, and he's even stated in this thread that this isn't the case, no matter how much you wanna repeat the suggestion.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Does he really need to know "why me?"  He could do nothing (not respond).  *snip*...

You too.  smile

May 10 16 01:55 pm Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 26342

Portland, Oregon, US

Jen B E wrote:
A zinger about the getting paid part could just be one personal sidebar in his own post, not to smear the entire context of his post.

You've quoted his payment comment several times in this thread and it is obviously a sticking point for you, likely more for you than his snarky sidebar comment. You are really holding onto it in spite of his repeated calm replies that outshine it.

Maybe you have something bigger going on in your need to defend model who charge, (who do not need defending btw, they are in their own right.)

Upon reflection, you raise some good points (in a direct & non-threatening way -- thank you for that).  Indeed, you are probably partially right.

But I don't feel like I'm trying to defend models -- I feel that I'm trying to help the MM community, especially the photographers.  Let me explain:

There are a great many passive-aggressive comments and threads that target models.  Regardless of the stated objectives, these comments & threads have disturbing things in common:
...  They are just bad business -- they attempt to influence agreements for which the poster has no
     involvement.  They try to discourage or inhibit people from negotiating for what they want.  See
     for example, the "Inexperienced models wanting to be paid-new trend?" thread on another forum.  The
     implication is that inexperienced models have no right to ask to be paid, and that's just not true.
...  These discussions often include subtle and not so subtle digs at models (e.g. "eleventy billion
     dollars"), making MM to be a less friendly place for models than it used to be.  People have already
     observed that alternatives to MM are a better source for finding models.
...  Instead of working to improve each other's skills, we tend to blame our woes on other people,
     especially on models.  That is a very sad loss of opportunity.

So, in general, these passive-aggressive slams against models diminish all of us.  It drives good people away and reduces the opportunities for the folks who remain.

These issues are so easy to address, if only one tries to include oneself in the solution.

May 12 16 08:02 pm Link

Photographer

Tony Lawrence

Posts: 21526

Chicago, Illinois, US

Looknsee Photography you and others miss the point of the forums.   These are places for members to express their opinions.   None of us gets to decide what's worthy of conversation.   Frankly its rude to do so.   Nor are we models parents.   These are adults.   They don't need White Knights.   Sometimes when photographers post they are angry over a flake or other problem.   Most understand we as a community don't have their answers.   MM is like the neighborhood barkeep.   What you see as a rant may not be.   What you see as passive aggressive may not be.   Photographers want to work with models.   Sometimes things don't work out.   When they post it doesn't mean you need to race to tell them the error of their ways and protect lady fair.

Photographers want to work with models.   Sometimes things don't work out and they start a thread to bitc* about it.   That doesn't mean they hate models or feel they aren't worth paying nor does anyone have to rescue them.

May 12 16 10:28 pm Link

Photographer

crx studios

Posts: 469

Los Angeles, California, US

Looknsee Photography wrote:
These issues are so easy to address, if only one tries to include oneself in the solution.

Sorry but you still don’t get it. You are not part of the solution. You didn’t add to the discussion at all. You simply made it about the OP’s motivation because you were convinced you saw into his character.

As I said in an earlier post, there are 2 ways to take in information. Try to understand what someone is saying in the best possible light, or try to understand what someone is saying in the worst possible light. View anything anyone says, no matter who they are, in the worst possible light - and you will ALWAYS find something to criticize.

May 13 16 12:19 am Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 26342

Portland, Oregon, US

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Looknsee Photography you miss the point of the forums.   These are places for members to express their opinions.

I understand it exceedingly well.

Here I am bitching about a pervasive, passive-aggressive, photographer-centric attitude towards models, which often includes bad business advice to fellow photographers & derogatory statements (in this case, "eleventy billion dollars") towards models.  It is my thesis that such conversations harm us all, by perpetuating bad business habits and by making MM a less friendly place to find work.

You might disagree with me, but I don't think I miss the point of these forums.  Just because you disagree with me, that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

May 13 16 06:36 am Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 26342

Portland, Oregon, US

crx studios wrote:
Sorry but you still don’t get it. You are not part of the solution. You didn’t add to the discussion at all. You simply made it about the OP’s motivation because you were convinced you saw into his character.

You don't get it.  It's not about this particular thread nor is it about this particular OP -- there is a pervasive attitude that perpetuate bad business habits and that makes MM a less friendly place for all of us (especially for models).  If we want to be a community, we need to find ways to support each other, and the constant bitching & ranting about how horrible & greedy models can be isn't helping anyone.

crx studios wrote:
As I said in an earlier post, there are 2 ways to take in information. Try to understand what someone is saying in the best possible light, or try to understand what someone is saying in the worst possible light. View anything anyone says, no matter who they are, in the worst possible light - and you will ALWAYS find something to criticize.

Those aren't the only two options,  In this case, I believe I've identified a trend and have taken the opportunity to share that with the community.  Your "two options" position is like say that you have two options:  you can agree with me or you can be wrong.

May 13 16 06:41 am Link

Photographer

crx studios

Posts: 469

Los Angeles, California, US

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Your "two options" position is like say that you have two options:  you can agree with me or you can be wrong.

Uhhh . . . that would be a no. My point is not like saying "you can agree with me or you can be wrong".

My point is about a mindset that one has towards everything in life. We all deal with it dozens of times a day. Someone tells us something and we have to decide “What did they really mean? Was that an insult? Did they just say that they know better than I do?”

And what I’m saying is that if you assume the best, those questions usually (although not always) disappear and we can simply accept their comment at face value, the way it was intended to be taken.

On the other hand, if we assume the worst about someone’s intentions, suddenly their comment takes on all kinds of sinister undertones. Then we attack because we're convinced that we were attacked first. And then the negativity becomes the reality.

And I’m telling you, in most situations, in these forums as well as in life, the negativity didn’t originate from the first person. The negativity was introduced by the second person when they incorrectly assumed that first person was up to no good.

I can’t explain it any clearer that that.

May 13 16 09:15 am Link

Photographer

James S

Posts: 1103

Spokane Valley, Washington, US

Some of my best photo shoots have come from traveling models messaging me for a photo shoot. They can message me as much as they want, I'll be happy to work with them if I can.

May 13 16 09:32 am Link

Model

Jen B E

Posts: 213

Hesperia, California, US

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Upon reflection, you raise some good points (in a direct & non-threatening way -- thank you for that).  Indeed, you are probably partially right.

But I don't feel like I'm trying to defend models -- I feel that I'm trying to help the MM community, especially the photographers.  Let me explain:

...So, in general, these passive-aggressive slams against models diminish all of us.  It drives good people away and reduces the opportunities for the folks who remain.

These issues are so easy to address, if only one tries to include oneself in the solution.

I agree, and believe there was a period of time in my four years here where I projected towards a couple of paid only MM models. I no longer feel that way but, do not see any of that particular group in the forums anymore.

It stems likely from this unique divide we have here from people here for creative fun shooting and people earning a living. I think we can coexist here in MM but, this issue may always brush hairs the wrong way, (a creative being asked to pay when they/I/we are here for trade.) Lines blur even more though because even the pay only have the prerogative to shoot for tf too.

Thank you back.

Jen
edit to add:

Looknsee Photography wrote:
...

Here I am bitching about a pervasive, passive-aggressive, photographer-centric attitude towards models, ....

I first saw the model-centric attitude towards photographers more than the reverse, which is why I at first reacted towards defensive models. I felt like in their statements of pay worthiness they were against those of us, (me,) who were here for furn. Then again, we all see through our own filters, right?

May 13 16 09:39 am Link

Photographer

Tony Lawrence

Posts: 21526

Chicago, Illinois, US

Looknsee Photography wrote:

I understand it exceedingly well.

Here I am bitching about a pervasive, passive-aggressive, photographer-centric attitude towards models, which often includes bad business advice to fellow photographers & derogatory statements (in this case, "eleventy billion dollars") towards models.  It is my thesis that such conversations harm us all, by perpetuating bad business habits and by making MM a less friendly place to find work.

You might disagree with me, but I don't think I miss the point of these forums.  Just because you disagree with me, that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I don't think I said you were wrong.    You continue to mention eleventy billion dollars as proof of something when the member who said it shoots a lot of MM models.   They like him and he likes them.  I have no idea what bad business practices you're speaking of on a site where models who claim to be in business feel its fine to ignore serious offers and sometimes don't show for paid shoots.   MM is as Tyler meant it to be all those years past.   A place to bullshi* and network.   Some of us want it to be different.   It has a low barrier of entry and its free.  Most of the work offered as far as I can tell is low level crappy paid nudes often masquerading as fine art.


The models on MM are fully capable of defending themselves and those who no longer post have usually moved on.   Some post on Facebook.   In general MM is more model friendly then years past.   However when men whine about flakes or how much models charge or inexperienced models charging or other assorted issues.   They aren't saying all MM models are that way.   No need to ride in on a steed to save lady fair.   No need to tell them their post shouldn't exist.
No reason to see what they say as wrong or right.

May 13 16 10:05 am Link

Photographer

Paolo D Photography

Posts: 11502

San Francisco, California, US

crx, you're so wise.

crx studios wrote:
On the other hand, if we assume the worst about someone’s intentions, suddenly their comment takes on all kinds of sinister undertones....

you mean like for example; when a photographer posts his favorite made up number from a SNL skit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdSLSoqd1X4
...and somehow that pretend number is interpreted as a social commentary on the expected compensation of traveling models?

Seriously (and i know some of you won't believe me but) its just a funny number i use.
There was no ill intent behind it.
Others have used it many times on MM forums too.

I've got better things to do than look for all the times "Eleventy billion" has been posted on MM but heres a few from me:

I posted a picture in a thread and claimed my ISO was set at "eleventy billion":
https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post … st12986711

Heres a rant about people using multiple names in their profile, i used "eleventy billion" to describe the amount of names:
https://forum.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/490427

i also suck at math and offered "eleventy ga-jillion" as part of some sort of math thingy people were doing:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post … st11365909

last week i implied my car insurance was a "bajillion dollars":
https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/958356

This thread is beyond done, but I thought I would comment on that one thing since everyone is being silly about it.

I guess if anyone can learn something from this thread; its that Paolo Diavolo likes to post pretend numbers, and you shouldn't look too deeply into it.

Theres other petty things you could be wasting your energy on.

May 13 16 04:42 pm Link

Photographer

Risen Phoenix Photo

Posts: 3779

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

Paolo Diavolo wrote:

you mean like for example; when a photographer posts his favorite made up number from a SNL skit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdSLSoqd1X4
...and somehow that pretend number is interpreted as a social commentary on the expected compensation of traveling models?

Seriously (and i know some of you won't believe me but) its just a funny number i use.
There was no ill intent behind it.
Others have used it many times on MM forums too.

I've got better things to do than look for all the times "Eleventy billion" has been posted on MM but heres a few from me:

I posted a picture in a thread and claimed my ISO was set at "eleventy billion":
https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post … st12986711




Heres a rant about people using multiple names in their profile, i used "eleventy billion" to describe the amount of names:
https://forum.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/490427

i also suck at math and offered "eleventy ga-jillion" as part of some sort of math thingy people were doing:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post … st11365909

last week i implied my car insurance was a "bajillion dollars":
https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/958356

This thread is beyond done, but I thought I would comment on that one thing.

I guess if any one can learn anything from this thread; its that Paolo Diavolo likes to post pretend numbers, and you shouldn't look too deeply into it.

Theres other petty things you could be wasting your energy on.

+1.  There have been a few white knights, they are the same folks with the same point all the time. Like only their opinion counts.  It doesn't. Though I support their right to say what ever they want, I don't think they have a right to denigrate others whose valid opinions are not their own.

This site is diminished when people get into these forums and insult others, have an over inflated sense of their abilities, and value, and look down their nose at others.

May 13 16 05:05 pm Link

Photographer

crx studios

Posts: 469

Los Angeles, California, US

Paolo Diavolo wrote:
you mean like for example; when a photographer posts his favorite made up number from a SNL skit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdSLSoqd1X4
...and somehow that pretend number is interpreted as a social commentary on the expected compensation of traveling models?

Oh - I’m onto you Paolo Diavolo. You posted those comments knowing full well that 7 years later you would use them as a cover for your unconscionable attempt to manipulate models into working for you for free.

And to think, you almost got away with it. Gives me chills just thinking about it.

May 13 16 06:08 pm Link

Photographer

Paolo D Photography

Posts: 11502

San Francisco, California, US

crx studios wrote:
Oh - I’m onto you Paolo Diavolo. You posted those comments knowing full well that 7 years later you would use them as a cover for your unconscionable attempt to manipulate models into working for you for free.

And to think, you almost got away with it. Gives me chills just thinking about it.

Well, despite me going to great length to try and cover my contempt for people who want to earn an honest living;
I might as well spill all the beans now, since you caught me.
Perhaps you may take mercy on me and see that although my intentions were malicious, my dedication to the craft is charming. I'll win you over yet. wink

What actually happened is I was so ashamed in May of 2016 after my hidden agenda was discovered here I attempted to mask it by traveling back in time to the year 2000, where I actually wrote the SNL skit  from which "eleventy billion" was created.
I planned to return to 2016 after the episode aired in April 2000, and use the SNL skit as a cover for my post here.

However, some complications arose when I met my younger self in 2000 and accidentally stopped myself from buying a pet goldfish 16 years ago. Thought nothing of it at the time.
I didnt realize until I returned back to 2016 and found out because I hadn't bought that goldfish 16 years ago youtube was never invented! Without youtube I couldnt link to the obscure SNL video in 2016. I traveled again back to the year 2000 and had to stop myself from stopping myself from interfering with the purchase of the Goldfish so that youtube would exist!.
It got complicated, and there was a really freaky 3-way, but eventually things worked out.

Once I had restored the course of the time line, I prepared the time machine to return me to to 2016.
First, in an attempt to cover my ass I made a few stops in 2009 and 2010 to make some posts using the phrase "eleventy billion" and to shoot a couple times with one of the nude traveling models who replied here in this thread. I paid her in 2016 money, she never noticed the year on the bills.

After having done so much time traveling, and because of miscalculation I only had enough time machine fuel to get to Dec 2012. Where I made this post hinting that time travel was indeed possible:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post … st17851691

Stranded in 2012 wasn't so bad for a few months, I kept a low profile until time travel was invented in early 2013.
Then I was able to skip the next 3 years and return to the present time line here in 2016.
Unfortunately, I had failed to cement "eleventy billion" into popular culture as being nothing more than a joke to disregard. Therefore I was unable to use it as a cover for my cruel ways and to hide my true intent.

That takes us to now, the present and I am busted big time.
I'm sorry, but can't you see I have moved time and space to try and be loved here on the forums.
Perhaps you can open your heart and find a way to accept this time traveling simpleton who's every forum post has a hidden meaning and agenda.

I promise no more games!
I'll even destroy that infernal time machine.
Traveling through time has become much too painful.

May 13 16 07:18 pm Link

Photographer

DespayreFX

Posts: 1481

Delta, British Columbia, Canada

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
+1.  There have been a few white knights, they are the same folks with the same point all the time. Like only their opinion counts.  It doesn't. Though I support their right to say what ever they want, I don't think they have a right to denigrate others whose valid opinions are not their own.

This site is diminished when people get into these forums and insult others, have an over inflated sense of their abilities, and value, and look down their nose at others.

+2.

PS. I will be endeavouring to use the phrase "eleventy billion" at least once in every thread I engage in from now on. Just cuz. smile

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to put the phone down, I'm driving in my pumpkin. smile

May 13 16 07:24 pm Link

Photographer

Dream Star Photography

Posts: 4

New Orleans, Louisiana, US

It's a beautiful, creative and personal experience to photograph a nude model. It's not for everyone, but then, what is?

If it's not for you, then live and let live in peace.

Jun 01 16 10:38 pm Link

Photographer

C.C. Holdings

Posts: 914

Los Angeles, California, US

Paolo Diavolo wrote:
Resulting in a lack of available trade work, so they usually pay models.

or because some photographers value their time and the model's time

Jun 02 16 01:06 am Link

Photographer

HOt Photography LA

Posts: 52

Los Angeles, California, US

Jun 11 16 10:26 pm Link

Photographer

HOt Photography LA

Posts: 52

Los Angeles, California, US

Since this the opening line of your MM bio, "Hello! I do this for fun now, because it fills my need to create," you seem to be nothing more than a GWC at this stage of the game.
GWC's are always a starting point for hobbyists as they often evolve into pro shooters. People like you give photographers a bad name. Stop being a snob.

Jun 11 16 10:27 pm Link

Photographer

Mary Durante Youtt

Posts: 520

Barnegat, New Jersey, US

Why Me?    A model is a salesperson (unless signed with an agency), the product they are selling is themselves.  Blasting emails are "cold calls".  If you don't make them, how will anyone know you are traveling to their area.   
You can either respond with a polite no thanks, a sure thing, or NOT respond at all. (I prefer to respond but that's just me).

Why make a bigger deal out of it than necessary?

Jun 12 16 04:05 am Link

Photographer

StayFocused

Posts: 49

Phoenix, Arizona, US

Looknsee Photography wrote:

crx studios wrote:
+10

OP was just curious why traveling nude models were marketing themselves to a photographer who doesn’t shoot nudes.

He wasn’t attacking nudes, he wasn’t attacking models, he wasn't angry, he wasn’t bragging, he wasn't using the term GWC outside it’s common usage (nor was he attacking them), he wasn’t ranting, and he certainly wasn’t criticizing Helmut Newton, Stieglitz, etc.

This is why most people don’t participate in these forums. No one in their right mind wants to subject themselves to this gauntlet of nonsense.

Except that he made an issue about a model asking to get paid.

Except that he characterized traveling models as people who typically ask for an inappropriately absurd rate ("eleventy billion dollars").

Heck, the very question suggest that he feels that it is inappropriate for traveling models to seek paying jobs.

Does he really need to know "why me?"  He could do nothing (not respond).  He could tell the model "no, thank you".  No, he made a forum issue out of it.

Jun 12 16 08:30 am Link

Photographer

StayFocused

Posts: 49

Phoenix, Arizona, US

StayFocused wrote:

Jun 12 16 08:31 am Link