.                            "Summer Help, and some are not.".

Zack Zoll wrote:
Assuming everything is 100% legal, an internship has a lot more requirements than a real job. In nys, an intern is supposed to be a 'bonus' employee. They're supposed to be assisting, and not replacing an employee. You don't get paid, because legally someone else is supposed to be doing most of the important work.

You've asked a lot of similar questions lately, and it's not my place to speculate why. But I will say it's a good thing you don't use your real name here, because potential employers might not like what they see.

Next time you have a similar question, you might want to research how the industry works before you assume something is wrong or unfair.

Even I don't get payment, they expect too much things from interns. I learned that internship is about learning from my school. Also, the link show that internship is similar to training which would be given in an educational environment. How am I suppose to do that I don't even learn and know? Potential employers? Like it or not, many students who seek internship might have similar thoughts that I have. That's why I feel unfairness toward internship with no payment.

Mortonovich wrote:
I still intern when I can in order to learn.

My personal story from a photo assistant standpoint but the lesson is the same- a while back I fanagled my way into a three day intern position with a photographer. Took three days off of work, drove to L.A., paid for my hotel and food out of my pocket, worked my motherfucking ass off for 12 hours each day. Was it worth it? Hell fucking yeah. Because it was an "A" list photographer (Mark Seliger) and we shot three stories for Italian Vogue and a campaign for BEBE. I learned SO MUCH in those three days. I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

This to me seems that only sane answer. If the value of what the intern learns is higher than what he contributes, he shouldn't expect cash as well. Of course, often this is not a case and interns are used as free labour. But a rule that interns should always be paid would just destroy a lot of the better opportunities for internship. If you get an opportunity to learn more in a few days than a term of college, for free, then holding out for money as well would seem counterproductive.

Zack Zoll wrote:
You've asked a lot of similar questions lately, and it's not my place to speculate why. But I will say it's a good thing you don't use your real name here, because potential employers might not like what they see.

His profile links to his website with what seems to be his name and full contact details...

Solas wrote:
I am not a fan of the unpaid internship model for creatives. Legal or not, I believe it to be highly unethical.

People say it is the way things are done in the industry. They say that about every industry. There are regulations, laws, depending on the country and area. For example, in ontario they are generally illegal (side for ones that fall under the exceptions listed about the Employment Standards Act http://www.cfib-fcei.ca/english/article … s-act.html )

Ethics and laws are not the only reason why internships are unpaid. There is also the demand issue.

If a prestigious employer went to NYU and ICP looking for interns, they would find no shortage of talented, hard-working people willing to work for free. Why would they willingly pay someone when somebody just as good will do it for free?

If every talented employee demanded pay, internships would stop being free tomorrow - no laws would be necessary.

It's no different than complaining about GWCs cutting into your wedding business - aside from the fact that in this case, the people willing to work for free are just as good as the people that want pay.

Are you better than all the NYU, ICP, etc. students that will work for free? Can you show that to an employer?

If not, that's why you're not getting paid.

Face it mate - creatives are a dime a dozen. Some of us might be really good, but almost none of us are special.

GianCarlo Images wrote:
Interning is not about making money, it's about getting real world work experience in a particular field. Your school has established relationships with many businesses willing to take on some interns and help further their education by providing on the job training. You may not be getting paid but they are not charging to teach you.

Sometimes places may offer a small stipend but that is not usually the case. You're in an Art/Photography school so when you take a break from crying the blues ask some culinary students how their internships are. Working with food chefs will have you working hard labor doing the dirty work at crazy hours of the night and mornings, and all for no pay. Life is rough in the big city and most all of us pay their dues.

But look at the positive side. Take advantage of the learning potential here, pay attention and work hard. The impressions you make on others can crush you or help send you to great places.

My niece worked hard in a city hospital as a speech pathologist for her internship with no pay. She is very bright and worked hard while she was there. Just after graduation she took on a pretty good job in her field. After about a year the hospital she had interned at called her because someone was retiring and they wanted her to work there. She took the hospital job because it paid much more money, had much bigger benefit and a retirement package. But wait, the first job asked if she could do some part time work, after work, a few days a week. She said OK. Her little part time after work job was paying her 30k a year. It's been six years and she's still going strong at both jobs.

Stop whining, roll up your sleeves and get to work. There's a long way to go still.

That's what I thought but it wasn't. I did not learn anything from my first internship at all. Several photographers that I met also have same mind not to teach but treat like a slave. I don't expect too much but they expect too much from students for internship. At least, they must teach several things first before they work. I'm not just whining but also complaining about their attitude and manner toward interns.

skim165 wrote:
That's what I thought but it wasn't. I did not learn anything from my first internship at all. Several photographers that I met also have same mind not to teach but treat like a slave. I don't expect too much but they expect too much from students for internship. At least, they must teach several things first before they work. I'm not just whining but also complaining about their attitude and manner toward interns.

OK, but it is not just photographers, it is the way of every seasoned professional in any field or vocation that will run you crazy and tried. They are not in school they are in the real working world and are just not in the business of being gentle, kind, and patient like your school teachers.

These people who you feel may be mean and treat you like slaves may not be as mean as you think. You see many would never agree to taking on interns in the first place because they simply can't be bothered with them. Taking an intern means having to put up with the inexperienced.

You may be a bright and brilliant student but you are green, and that means slow and errors (normal) which will try their patience.

You may find yourself getting coffee and donuts for them at times but even that is part of the process. You may think you have not learned anything but you probably did. Try this, everyday when you leave school or the internship job ask yourself this question; did I learn anything today? What was it? Chances are you did but you just did not realize it. It may not seem so, or be so obvious but chances are you did.

In school you may have a project due date but you probably have ample time to do it. In the real world that time is a lot less. It's not a hobby, it's time equals money. Things have to get done right in the shortest amount of time. Mistakes equal lost time and lost time is not recoverable. It's about learning what to do, doing things right, fast, and without error. This takes time to learn and it takes ten years of experience in ANY field to become a true professional at something. It's just the way it is.

thiswayup wrote:

This to me seems that only sane answer. If the value of what the intern learns is higher than what he contributes, he shouldn't expect cash as well. Of course, often this is not a case and interns are used as free labour. But a rule that interns should always be paid would just destroy a lot of the better opportunities for internship. If you get an opportunity to learn more in a few days than a term of college, for free, then holding out for money as well would seem counterproductive.

Exactly, and there's a range/transition too.

Look at the time periods before the internship and after.

Before, as a student, you're not only not getting paid, you're actually paying out of pocket. Then once you have a job, you're getting paid while you learn, even if it's only a new employee orientation. We document years of experience which is a way of quantifying  additional learning.

It makes sense that there would be a transitional stage where you're not so unknowledgeable that you should have to pay out of pocket, but still not knowledgable and experienced enough to be worth paying.

The reality is, interns are expensive. They require supervision and they can do a lot of damage.

I have a friend who, 15 years ago, was paying some of his employees $400/week. What he found is that they were consistently making mistakes that cost him another $400, so he decided there was no way around the $800/week and hired someone who wouldn't take less, but wouldn't make the mistakes. Plus, there was the cost in his time to redo the jobs they'd screwed up.


Sometimes a job has a particular value, but when someone isn't experienced enough to generate the value and causes losses, that ends up being a net zero situation.


Every intern I've had required so much work that they were not worth the effort. When I accept one, it's a form of giving back. I don't get anything out of it except whatever personal satisfaction there may be, and there's a huge risk.


I know someone else who requires a three year commitment from his "assistants".

I think what he ends up doing is having them intern for a year and then work for two. Instead of having them work for free for the first year, and pay for the second, he pays them for two years of work, but spreads it over three years of time.

That's probably a better solution for most people, but it's not realistic at most big companies.

skim165 wrote:
That's what I thought but it wasn't. I did not learn anything from my first internship at all. Several photographers that I met also have same mind not to teach but treat like a slave. I don't expect too much but they expect too much from students for internship. At least, they must teach several things first before they work. I'm not just whining but also complaining about their attitude and manner toward interns.

They are not there to teach you...you are there to learn.  If you are observant and have a good attitude you will learn lots.  Learning is not always about "being taught".  Take some responsibility for your learning and make the most of the opportunity you have to learn.

As others have said, the folks you're interning with are running a business.  They are not in the business of educating you.  If you can learn while you help that's good for them and for you.  Whether or not you learn enough to make the opportunity worthwhile is almost certainly up to YOU not them.  Remember that there is much more to learn about working as a photographer than "photography".

Mortonovich wrote:
I still intern when I can in order to learn.

My personal story from a photo assistant standpoint but the lesson is the same- a while back I fanagled my way into a three day intern position with a photographer. Took three days off of work, drove to L.A., paid for my hotel and food out of my pocket, worked my motherfucking ass off for 12 hours each day. Was it worth it? Hell fucking yeah. Because it was an "A" list photographer (Mark Seliger) and we shot three stories for Italian Vogue and a campaign for BEBE. I learned SO MUCH in those three days. I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

Think of it like music- if you are a guitar player, what would you do to be able to sit in and jam with your favorite artist? Of course that's at one end of the scale and Joe Beginner is at the other. The spots in between are variable and more than likely get muddled up when strict rules of gas money come into play.

I would pay airfare to LA, pay my way and work a week for free...  Some will see the benefit of this, some will not.

ontherocks wrote:
i thought unpaid internships were now illegal? basically slave labor? but maybe it depends on where you are or maybe they aren't enforcing that.

seems like there are lots of industries where you have to pay your dues for free and basically get abused in order to have a chance of making it? hopefully when you make it life is good so the sacrifice will have seemed worthwhile.

but at some level unpaid internships seem like shooting photos for exposure or the possibility of future work. none of that pays your current bills. and you may or may not reach the promised land.

It varies state to state, but the general rule is that if an intern is regularly asked to do something an employee would do - by themselves, not assisting or supervised - then they are acting as an employee, and must be paid.

Which means that if you have a 'legal' intern, you shouldn't be saving much money, if any. In theory your costs are the same, but you have much lower efficiency when the intern starts, and end with much higher efficiency at the end of the term.

ontherocks wrote:
i thought unpaid internships were now illegal? basically slave labor? but maybe it depends on where you are or maybe they aren't enforcing that.

seems like there are lots of industries where you have to pay your dues for free and basically get abused in order to have a chance of making it? hopefully when you make it life is good so the sacrifice will have seemed worthwhile.

but at some level unpaid internships seem like shooting photos for exposure or the possibility of future work. none of that pays your current bills. and you may or may not reach the promised land.

This comes from the viewpoint of internships being work as opposed to education.  I tend to think of them as "free" education rather than unpaid work.

Mortonovich wrote:
I still intern when I can in order to learn.

My personal story from a photo assistant standpoint but the lesson is the same- a while back I fanagled my way into a three day intern position with a photographer. Took three days off of work, drove to L.A., paid for my hotel and food out of my pocket, worked my motherfucking ass off for 12 hours each day. Was it worth it? Hell fucking yeah. Because it was an "A" list photographer (Mark Seliger) and we shot three stories for Italian Vogue and a campaign for BEBE. I learned SO MUCH in those three days. I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

Think of it like music- if you are a guitar player, what would you do to be able to sit in and jam with your favorite artist? Of course that's at one end of the scale and Joe Beginner is at the other. The spots in between are variable and more than likely get muddled up when strict rules of gas money come into play.

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
I would pay airfare to LA, pay my way and work a week for free...  Some will see the benefit of this, some will not.

And the difference could well be a sense of entitlement, these days - a situation that managers increasingly have to deal with.

ontherocks wrote:
i thought unpaid internships were now illegal? basically slave labor?

This isn't language I'd use. Slaves were not if asked they wanted to work for free for a few weeks in return for the chance at gaining some useful skills. A lot of people would - understandably and correctly - find this phrasing offensive, so I'd avoid it.

It also misses the other main point about internships, which is that in return for your work you're getting something you normally have to pay cash for - education.

Managing Light wrote:
And the difference could well be a sense of entitlement, these days - a situation that managers increasingly have to deal with.

And it could be that managers are abusing the system too. In fact, it is probably both.

skim165 wrote:
Any thoughts about internship with no payment? I thought they should give at least minimum wages for interns but in here, NYC, they don't even pay minimum wages. My first internship did not give any money at all. But why? How come? I really believe that interns deserve to have at minimum wages. But still, nobody never explained about this.
Any reasons or thoughts?

From the official source, here's explanation and info regarding the rules in NY state, for paid/unpaid internships:

http://www.labor.ny.gov/formsdocs/facts … s/p725.pdf

skim165 wrote:
Any thoughts about internship with no payment? I thought they should give at least minimum wages for interns but in here, NYC, they don't even pay minimum wages. My first internship did not give any money at all. But why? How come? I really believe that interns deserve to have at minimum wages. But still, nobody never explained about this.

Any reasons or thoughts?

Because they are cheap!  I think it is against the law not to pay (even for intern) if they are not non profit organization/business.  But if they are non profit organization, then I have no idea.

Few years back the doctor could take intern during the summer without paying.  The intern could get some training, etc.  However, that got stopped and now doctors aren't allowed to have intern unless the intern get paid.  In some way, that does makes sense to me.   A lot of companies not paying intern because they promise the intern that they might get hire by them or it is good for their career when they graduate etc.  A lot of companies were making empty promises.