Photographer
Antonio Barros
Posts: 423
Paris, Île-de-France, France
I'm in this business for 11 or 12 years and I can count in my fingers how many models hired ($$$) me to photograph them.
For the past 4 years I wasn't hired by one single model.
Is there something wrong with my portfolio, my website or my instagram?
Photographer
GoneAway
Posts: 561
Tombouctou, Tombouctou, Mali
Just a guess but I'd say, based on a quick glance at your port, that agency standard models would get tears of a similar nature from work for which they've been commissioned and paid or from testing via their agency. Internet models tend to be paid for glamour or art and your work doesn't seem to fall into either of those categories to me. Having said that, unless you were producing something unique and consistent, I doubt any photographer would be paid very often by internet models (is France any different to the UK??). I get 3 possibly 4 paid shoots a year but they tend to come from models (or actresses) I already have an established relationship with.
I'd say your best opportunity for paid work would be from agencies seeking to test new(ish) models - do you get anything from the agency you refer to in your profile notes??
Photographer
Antonio Barros
Posts: 423
Paris, Île-de-France, France
M A R K wrote:
Just a guess but I'd say, based on a quick glance at your port, that agency standard models would get tears of a similar nature from work for which they've been commissioned and paid or from testing via their agency. Internet models tend to be paid for glamour or art and your work doesn't seem to fall into either of those categories to me. Having said that, unless you were producing something unique and consistent, I doubt any photographer would be paid very often by internet models (is France any different to the UK??). I get 3 possibly 4 paid shoots a year but they tend to come from models (or actresses) I already have an established relationship with.
I'd say your best opportunity for paid work would be from agencies seeking to test new(ish) models - do you get anything from the agency you refer to in your profile notes?? I work with some agencies in Paris. But agencies here don't pay for tests of new faces.
Photographer
Paul Tirado Photography
Posts: 4363
New York, New York, US
To your credit, the photographs you display on here seem to be high level editorial quality. One assumes they were created with the coordination of any number of creatives from hair and makeup to wardrobe stylists and possible location coordinators and more. Understand that if you are looking for magazine work that this works for you and if you are looking to get paid by models that this can work against you.
For the most part the models who are looking to pay are looking for the types of shots that agencies often use in promotion of their models. Simple, clean studio portrait and beauty and maybe some simple location type shots. It is not that a model wouldn't want to have high end editorial type shots like that but I would say they would look at those shots and make a snap cost / benefit judgement. That is to say it would be better to get shots that be of more benefit to a upcoming model than to get the other type of shots which probably might be more expensive with more people involved.
Photographer
g2-new photographics
Posts: 2048
Boston, Massachusetts, US
A reality on MM is that most good-to-excellent models get enough - often paid - offers from good-to-excellent photographers that they'd rarely need to pay a photographer unless they specifically wanted portfolio images from someone specific, e.g., a Ken Marcus. Even then they might be able to negotiate a TFS (Time For Something) photosession. I get inquiries from time to time from models who'd like to work with me, but they never offer to pay! (We do often, though, work something out Usually me paying.) 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 12221
Los Angeles, California, US
Paul makes some good points.
I'd add that looking over your images, I see a lot of looking away / detached expressions on the models (which is great), but agencies tend to want images for promotional use for their new faces that showcase the girl (and personality even) rather than a more editorial detached style. Ie. more "fashion portrait".
Photographer
TMA Photo and Training
Posts: 1009
Lancaster, Pennsylvania, US
You have great choices of models and good locations and poses. You have good visual craftsmanship in your photography and your images have a nice editorial and quality look to them.
Good looking models Dont need to pay to have their pictures taken... they have higher end photographers or photographers with project budgets looking to work with them.
The models here on MM are oftentimes just starting out and so dont have budgets or money to spend paying to have their images taken...there are enough Guys With a Camera on here to take their images for free.
If you did good actor headshots... people would understand to pay you for that.
Photographer
DOUGLASFOTOS
Posts: 10604
Los Angeles, California, US
J O H N A L L A N wrote:
Paul makes some good points.
I'd add that looking over your images, I see a lot of looking away / detached expressions on the models (which is great), but agencies tend to want images for promotional use for their new faces that showcase the girl (and personality even) rather than a more editorial detached style. Ie. more "fashion portrait". This and...
They all look alike.
Photographer
Don Garrett
Posts: 4984
Escondido, California, US
I think the real reason is that this is NOT a site where photographers make money. I don't believe it has anything to do with the quality of your images, I haven't looked at them yet. Photographers who are looking to make money are wasting their time here.
-Don
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
OP, your work is great but in general models don't pay to shoot. The idea is to find clients. Your editorial work is what gets you hopefully in the door. Designers, catalog, stock, fashion shows should be what you look to for paid work. At some point the agency you work with should be getting you paid tests with new faces. Established models tend not to have to pay. I'm also not a believer in talent paying talent. Models are talent. Paid tests for models is not what fashion shooters should want to do very long. Join this: http://www.ppa.com/about/content.cfm?ItemNumber=6246 Approach advertising agencies in France. My guess is you're being paid already. Just don't look for models to pay especially from sites like this.
Photographer
Antonio Barros
Posts: 423
Paris, Île-de-France, France
I'm not looking specifically for models from MM.
I used to work as a booker in a model agency before becoming a photographer and we used to send in average 2 girls per week to one photographer. We paid well for this work.
This photographer had a good amount of work per week just photographing tests for agencies and random wannabee models.
When I started I imagined I could do this as a side job when I wouldn't be doing assignment jobs for magazines or other commercial jobs. But this never happened.
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 12221
Los Angeles, California, US
Antonio Barros wrote:
I'm not looking specifically for models from MM.
I used to work as a booker in a model agency before becoming a photographer and we used to send in average 2 girls per week to one photographer. We paid well for this work.
This photographer had a good amount of work per week just photographing tests for agencies and random wannabee models.
When I started I imagined I could do this as a side job when I wouldn't be doing assignment jobs for magazines or other commercial jobs. But this never happened. How long ago was this? I remember also when a photographer could even make a modest living off of model tests - but that was the era of film and while digital technology got established. The landscape has changed with the suffocating proliferation of photographers who are "competent enough".
Photographer
Antonio Barros
Posts: 423
Paris, Île-de-France, France
J O H N A L L A N wrote:
How long ago was this? I remember also when a photographer could even make a modest living off of model tests - but that was the era of film and while digital technology got established. The landscape has changed with the suffocating proliferation of photographers who are "competent enough". It's about 15 years ago... I think I just know why now.
Photographer
TerrysPhotocountry
Posts: 4649
Rochester, New York, US
Offer the models that you have worked with in the past a nice discount on there next photo session for the referrals that book with you.
Photographer
Nico Simon Princely
Posts: 1972
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Getting attractive women who are constantly given everything thing in life and have people lined up to shoot them for free or money is not easy to do. On top of that if they are haring they want something different. You port on here is very standard work quality but noting that jumps out at you.
I do get hired but it's also based on other factors, like my reliability, ethics, style, publishing connections. Getting Published in Playboy got me hired more and still it not easy.
I just had a model waste my time for 3 days going back and forth from hiring me then at the end started talking about TF. I blocked her.
Photographer
LA StarShooter
Posts: 2730
Los Angeles, California, US
You've accomplished a lot. From shooting for Look and InStyle magazine to shooting polaroids of celebrities, to also capturing the famous and the beautiful on runways around the world, you're a standout talent. I looked at your website. It's really just marketing in your case. You have the credentials, the connections, you just have to weave it together. Good luck.
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18465
Orlando, Florida, US
It's simple most models are cheap and have a sense of entitlement that they believe they shouldn't pay for anything.
Photographer
Brooklyn Bridge Images
Posts: 13200
Brooklyn, New York, US
A-M-P wrote:
It's simple most models are cheap and have a sense of entitlement that they believe they shouldn't pay for anything. Just a note b4 the lynch mob appears
This comment was posted by a female photographer and former model(I believe)
Photographer
Antonio Barros
Posts: 423
Paris, Île-de-France, France
Nico Simon Princely wrote:
You port on here is very standard work quality but noting that jumps out at you.
I do get hired but it's also based on other factors, like my reliability, ethics, style, publishing connections. Getting Published in Playboy got me hired more and still it not easy.
I just had a model waste my time for 3 days going back and forth from hiring me then at the end started talking about TF. I blocked her. Nico, Thanks for your message but I expected something a little more constructive.
Looks like you never worked for a fashion magazine and you never worked with celebrities or real fashion models. Magazines give me mood boards and I have to follow the instructions on there. I might suggest some changes but it's the editors opinion and the sponsors opinion that counts the most. When you submit pictures to Playboy there is no worries if the 20k dress is looking like the designer wants it to be, there is no stress with the manager of the model who doesn't want her to show too much cleavage... I'm not always able to show my creative side.
Im a regular contributor at Vogue, and this opened many doors but sometimes I still wish I could do more and feel insecure about my work.
If you tell me my work is boring... please tell me why and what I should do to improve!
Photographer
thiswayup
Posts: 1136
Runcorn, England, United Kingdom
Maybe there is nothing wrong at all with your images but you're not marketing yourself in the right way. or your prices are wrong?
..But, even though you're in the top 1% by MM standards, that probably only puts you about par with the people who shoot trade for agencies in my nearest big city, Manchester. The competition in Paris mus be much fiercer again.
As for making your images better, you're at that tricky stage where you've acquired extreme competency but haven't found a way of giving your images the "handwriting" that a only very few photographers acquire - the Newtons and Unwerths.
Photographer
Light and Lens Studio
Posts: 3450
Sisters, Oregon, US
J O H N A L L A N wrote:
Paul makes some good points.
I'd add that looking over your images, I see a lot of looking away / detached expressions on the models (which is great), but agencies tend to want images for promotional use for their new faces that showcase the girl (and personality even) rather than a more editorial detached style. Ie. more "fashion portrait". DOUGLASFOTOS wrote:
This and...
They all look alike. These, and.....
With one exception, they are all framed widely, making the subject "tiny" and the photos all look very much alike. Almost microscopic in the Thumbnails. Then, there are some images where you tried to get "two for one" by posting two images as one. This makes some otherwise good images, not showcase themselves well because they are too small to get anybody's attention. Try some tightly cropped headshots and tighter crops on your fashion shots..
When I see so many wide shots in a port, the first impression is that it looks like a bunch of snapshots taken with a point and shoot. Your work is way beyond that, but you need to do a better job of showcasing it.
Just my 2¢ worth
Photographer
Paul Tirado Photography
Posts: 4363
New York, New York, US
J O H N A L L A N wrote:
How long ago was this? I remember also when a photographer could even make a modest living off of model tests - but that was the era of film and while digital technology got established. The landscape has changed with the suffocating proliferation of photographers who are "competent enough". Yeah so true. Not that I am nostalgic about the past it as I enjoy the cost savings of digital and find learning the ability to learn new techniques and styles online to be very cool, but the number of photographers who are "competent enough" to take a decent model test shot is exponentially higher now.
I cannot speak for any area other than NYC but having worked in and around agencies here, many agencies here have a long growing list of photographers who are willing to shoot trade for model work who can shoot a decent test shot. They also have an understanding that should they use and like any number of photographers on this list that some of these photographers may eventually state "Hey I want to get paid." to which the agency may consider paying them (not often) or just say "Cool, we will let you know if have any paid work" and then just find another name on the list (far more often).
Photographer
Antonio Barros
Posts: 423
Paris, Île-de-France, France
I just uploaded some more pictures to the MM portfolio.
Something a little more model agency focused.
Retoucher
ST Retouch
Posts: 393
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Antonio Barros wrote:
Nico, Thanks for your message but I expected something a little more constructive.
Looks like you never worked for a fashion magazine and you never worked with celebrities or real fashion models. Magazines give me mood boards and I have to follow the instructions on there. I might suggest some changes but it's the editors opinion and the sponsors opinion that counts the most. When you submit pictures to Playboy there is no worries if the 20k dress is looking like the designer wants it to be, there is no stress with the manager of the model who doesn't want her to show too much cleavage... I'm not always able to show my creative side.
Im a regular contributor at Vogue, and this opened many doors but sometimes I still wish I could do more and feel insecure about my work.
If you tell me my work is boring... please tell me why and what I should do to improve! You have right with explanation about shooting for magazine editorials, very often it is impossible to show creativity because you work under strictly rules of editors or similar.
I agree with you.
But I have another question Antonio for you because I see you are based in Paris and your work is very good and professional.
Is your main question in this thread why models not hire you or you generally speak that is problem to find work in Paris.
Paris is probably beside New York main city for photography , Paris is full of fashion brands, designers, online shops, small family fashion companies.
Do you speak that actually it is a huge problem to find serious commercial jobs in Paris and France or you speak only about shooting with models.
Thank you,
Best
Photographer
Antonio Barros
Posts: 423
Paris, Île-de-France, France
ST Retouch wrote:
You have right with explanation about shooting for magazine editorials, very often it is impossible to show creativity because you work under strictly rules of editors or similar.
I agree with you.
But I have another question Antonio for you because I see you are based in Paris and your work is very good and professional.
Is your main question in this thread why models not hire you or you generally speak that is problem to find work in Paris.
Paris is probably beside New York main city for photography , Paris is full of fashion brands, designers, online shops, small family fashion companies.
Do you speak that actually it is a huge problem to find serious commercial jobs in Paris and France or you speak only about shooting with models.
Thank you,
Best I'm talking about models. There is work in Paris... I think less than NY and London but there is still something.
Retoucher
ST Retouch
Posts: 393
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Antonio Barros wrote:
I'm talking about models. There is work in Paris... I think less than NY and London but there is still something. Now I understand better discussion in this thread.
But what's the point of shooting model's portfolio or doing test for agencies?
First of all models ( individuals ) don't have budget for serious photo production.
Who's gonna pay average daily rate of one serious fashion/commercial photographer with at least Euro/Dollar 2500-5000++ per day?
Second, test for agencies , how much is it?
There are thousands and thousands of photographers waiting on some test for agencies with free of charge or in the best case to shoot for Euro/Dollar 100-200 .
Which is the benefit of testing for agencies ?
Why someone who lives in New York, Paris , London, LA or any main cities with strong commercial market is waiting to shoot model's portfolio instead of looking to offer services to professional clients , companies,brands,designers, online shops etc, etc, etc?
Photographer
Antonio Barros
Posts: 423
Paris, Île-de-France, France
ST Retouch wrote:
Now I understand better discussion in this thread.
But what's the point of shooting model's portfolio or doing test for agencies?
First of all models ( individuals ) don't have budget for serious photo production.
Who's gonna pay average daily rate of one serious fashion/commercial photographer with at least Euro/Dollar 2500-5000++ per day?
Second, test for agencies , how much is it?
There are thousands and thousands of photographers waiting on some test for agencies with free of charge or in the best case to shoot for Euro/Dollar 100-200 .
Which is the benefit of testing for agencies ?
Why someone who lives in New York, Paris , London, LA or any main cities with strong commercial market is waiting to shoot model's portfolio instead of looking to offer services to professional clients , companies,brands,designers, online shops etc, etc, etc? There aren't big jobs knocking on my door every single day. I have plenty of free days every month where I could schedule some simple model tests. And of course, for a model test there is no reason to charge 2500-5000. First because I don't need a full day to photograph a test. (2, 3 hours max)
Second, you can't charge for a test the same you charge for a commercial job.
|
