NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:
No one has ever flaked on me. Okay, there was that one time but I don't count it because she was from Craigslist and we did eventually shoot.

BUT.

I've started to notice (because I'm slow on the uptake) that there is this other thing that happens quite a lot: the slow motion conversation, in which I'm trying to plan something complex and their end of the conversation always comes with a 3 day lag. There's also the 'soft flake,' which is a flake in the planning stage so you don't notice it as a flake.

I think what happens is they start to realize, "holy shit. There's PLANNING involved? Screw that." But whenever I try to just shoot more casually they're like, "No, I want to be like this other elaborate thing in your port!"

That is all.

Dude . . . wtf . . . you've been here 11 years and you are just now noticing this? This is like a HALLMARK of MM "models".

Mortonovich wrote:

Dude . . . wtf . . . you've been here 11 years and you are just now noticing this? This is like a HALLMARK of MM "models".

I'm slow on the uptake.

DespayreFX wrote:
Yes, that "3 days to get back to you" thing, seems like a red flag to me, this generation has no problem with instant digital media, and you can even set your MM mail to forward to whatever email you read every day, so really, there's no excuse for this, other than to indicate they aren't nearly as interested in a project as you are.

I just let them fade away after the 2nd or 3rd delay like that when asking simple shoot-related questions. I don't have time for that game.

+1

For most people today their phone has become a permanent part of their arm and it's always with them and it's always on.  If you send someone a message you can be pretty certain they saw the message within minutes after you sent it.  If they don't respond for days they probably have no real interest and it's better to move on than to pursue the matter.  In my experience, models that don't communicate well seldom follow through with a shoot.

Shot By Adam wrote:
If the shoot has more moving parts than just showing up and shooting, I require at a MINIMUM a phone conversation, not endless back-and-forth emails. If the other parties don't want to speak on the phone, we don't shoot. Some shoots require meetings.

Case in point, in 90 minutes I'm meeting with a model about a TFP shoot we want to do. It's going to require an exotic location, makeup artists, props, special wardrobe, etc. I suggested to the model that she and I should meet at Starbucks to brainstorm the shoot and she told me how much she appreciated that because most photographers just do the endless email thing with her and she feels that all her shoots are rushed and never thought-out. So we are meeting to discuss the shoot and then will meet again with all the other parties as well so we're all on the same page. I love collaborating with people like this...they get it, and as a result, we get excellent results.

OK, this couldn't be more perfect if I tried. Immediately after writing this post, I sent the model a txt message to confirm our meeting. I then went to go pull up her MM page because she had her website URL in her profile and I wanted to bookmark the link prior to the meeting. As I clicked on the link, I see she pulled her MM page. Then I get a txt message response that reads:

"I'm sorry, I've had a personal emergency come home suddenly and won't be modeling any more"

Oh, you just gotta love it.

Shot By Adam wrote:

Shot By Adam wrote:
"I'm sorry, I've had a personal emergency come home suddenly and won't be modeling any more"

Oh, you just gotta love it.

Yea, I had one of those recently I had booked a drawing model for a photo shoot. A week before, I get "I have to help my single mother to move". Like you can't schedule that for some time OTHER than the 2 hours we were supposed to shoot? It wasn't, like, last day of the month and mom was being evicted by sheriffs (presumably).

Shot By Adam wrote:
OK, this couldn't be more perfect if I tried. Immediately after writing this post, I sent the model a txt message to confirm our meeting. I then went to go pull up her MM page because she had her website URL in her profile and I wanted to bookmark the link prior to the meeting. As I clicked on the link, I see she pulled her MM page. Then I get a txt message response that reads:

"I'm sorry, I've had a personal emergency come home suddenly and won't be modeling any more"

Oh, you just gotta love it.

And I was just about to ask for her name. I could use a few such models.

I recently had a model contact me wanting to shoot. A couple messages back and forth and I propose meeting at Starbucks one day "next week." Pick a day. Sounds good, she responds, I just need to check my work schedule. This on a Saturday. The following Thursday, I finally speak up and say "weeks over with now." Say what, she says?

I pointed out she'd vanished on me for 5 days. She has yet to read that message. I don't think we'll likely be shooting, do you?

Just a Hobby wrote:
Yea, I had one of those recently I had booked a drawing model for a photo shoot. A week before, I get "I have to help my single mother to move". Like you can't schedule that for some time OTHER than the 2 hours we were supposed to shoot? It wasn't, like, last day of the month and mom was being evicted by sheriffs (presumably).

It all comes down to what's more valuable in your circumstance though. So the model booked a shoot with you but also was asked by her mother to help her move. So let's assume you're paying this model...say, $200. OK, so the model weighs it out...

"$200 for a photo shoot vs helping Mom move. Hmmm.....well, I don't really need the 200 bucks so much for a photo shoot and Mom really said she needed to move on this day, so I'll do the move." In this case, Mom had more value to her.

Now, imagine the same model had a full time job and Mom asked her to help her move on a day she worked...

"Mom asked me to help her move but I have to work and don't have any time off...if I do the move, I'll get fired, so let's work with Mom to reschedule her move or find someone who can help her."  In this case, the job won as it has more value.

Shot By Adam wrote:
It all comes down to what's more valuable in your circumstance though. So the model booked a shoot with you but also was asked by her mother to help her move. So let's assume you're paying this model...say, $200. OK, so the model weighs it out...

"$200 for a photo shoot vs helping Mom move. Hmmm.....well, I don't really need the 200 bucks so much for a photo shoot and Mom really said she needed to move on this day, so I'll do the move." In this case, Mom had more value to her.

Now, imagine the same model had a full time job and Mom asked her to help her move on a day she worked...

"Mom asked me to help her move but I have to work and don't have any time off...if I do the move, I'll get fired, so let's work with Mom to reschedule her move or find someone who can help her."  In this case, the job won as it has more value.

You nailed it.  100% correct.  It really isn't rocket science although too many photographers seem to think dealing with flakes has to be a reality for them.  You hit the dynamics straight on the head... if you're not paying enough to outweigh whatever else is on a model's mind, then your the amount you're paying doesn't amount to squat as far as the model is concerned.

Try this:

Pay $1,500 cash, after only working the model for 1/2 hour.   Tell her that you'd like to set up a shoot for next week, for the same amount of work, for the same amount of her time.  So you pay her $1,500 the next shoot as well.  Now at this point you've established yourself as a cash cow and your number of flakes will drop to z-e-r-o unless you're courting the *largely* irresponsible, under educated, stripper types. Yes, I said it.   You'd have to be a fool to pay that much today, but you get my point.  You have to have something worth showing up for.

Nothing against strippers, but if you're looking for the epitome of responsible people, strippers aren't where you look, which brings me to my point,  Most photographers who deal with flakes are courting the wrong models to begin with.  You field models that are educated, responsible, and have a pattern of showing responsibility.   Face it, a model with an extensive loan history and a near perfect credit score is less likely to flake than Suzy Q., who can't even keep her cell phone turned on without *ever* having it turned off due to non payment of the cell bill and a credit score that's lower than her IQ...

As a photographer you have to be able to know at least something about basic demography and what types of people generally keep your life problem free.  It's common freaking sense.  Banks do it.  Insurance companies do it.  The Federal Government / military does it.  You have to *discriminate* based on responsible traits and things that show a positive pattern.
A model with a J.D. isn't likely to flake compared to a model who's been working for the last 3.5 years on an A.A. degree in "communications"...    get real people.

Money and education talks.

... but of course for those of you who like to be all inclusive, and deal with flakes while beating your heads against the wall... rock on! 

Over about 18 years of dealing with amateur models, to include the many I meet on the street... not one flake.  nada. nil. zero. zilch. zip. nothing.   Why?  I almost exclusively deal with people who speak a certain way, have a certain level of education, college kids in their senior year or more in highly viable majors of study (engineering vs. elementary education for example), and my favorite, soccer moms, teachers, and business owners, etc... who to their credit seem to always have a way of calling if they're going to be late and never have lame excuses.

For everyone else, you have to pay-to-play, and if you're not responsible enough to do that, then I assume I was dealing with a prospective flake.  I often require $25 (payable in cash at end of shoot) to book TF work.  Amazingly the smart girls don't balk.    It's just too easy people.

Shot By Adam wrote:
OK, this couldn't be more perfect if I tried. Immediately after writing this post, I sent the model a txt message to confirm our meeting. I then went to go pull up her MM page because she had her website URL in her profile and I wanted to bookmark the link prior to the meeting. As I clicked on the link, I see she pulled her MM page. Then I get a txt message response that reads:

"I'm sorry, I've had a personal emergency come home suddenly and won't be modeling any more"

Oh, you just gotta love it.

I am curious, was this a model who shoots nudes or implied? I wonder if what she really meant to write was: "I'm sorry, I've had a parent/boy friend come home suddenly and won't be modeling any more"

Teila K Day Photography wrote:
You nailed it.  100% correct.  It really isn't rocket science although too many photographers seem to think dealing with flakes has to be a reality for them.  You hit the dynamics straight on the head... if you're not paying enough to outweigh whatever else is on a model's mind, then your the amount you're paying doesn't amount to squat as far as the model is concerned.

Try this:

Pay $1,500 cash, after only working the model for 1/2 hour.   Tell her that you'd like to set up a shoot for next week, for the same amount of work, for the same amount of her time.  So you pay her $1,500 the next shoot as well.  Now at this point you've established yourself as a cash cow and your number of flakes will drop to z-e-r-o unless you're courting the *largely* irresponsible, under educated, stripper types. Yes, I said it.   You'd have to be a fool to pay that much today, but you get my point.  You have to have something worth showing up for.

Nothing against strippers, but if you're looking for the epitome of responsible people, strippers aren't where you look, which brings me to my point,  Most photographers who deal with flakes are courting the wrong models to begin with.  You field models that are educated, responsible, and have a pattern of showing responsibility.   Face it, a model with an extensive loan history and a near perfect credit score is less likely to flake than Suzy Q., who can't even keep her cell phone turned on without *ever* having it turned off due to non payment of the cell bill and a credit score that's lower than her IQ...

As a photographer you have to be able to know at least something about basic demography and what types of people generally keep your life problem free.  It's common freaking sense.  Banks do it.  Insurance companies do it.  The Federal Government / military does it.  You have to *discriminate* based on responsible traits and things that show a positive pattern.
A model with a J.D. isn't likely to flake compared to a model who's been working for the last 3.5 years on an A.A. degree in "communications"...    get real people.

Money and education talks.

... but of course for those of you who like to be all inclusive, and deal with flakes while beating your heads against the wall... rock on! 

Over about 18 years of dealing with amateur models, to include the many I meet on the street... not one flake.  nada. nil. zero. zilch. zip. nothing.   Why?  I almost exclusively deal with people who speak a certain way, have a certain level of education, college kids in their senior year or more in highly viable majors of study (engineering vs. elementary education for example), and my favorite, soccer moms, teachers, and business owners, etc... who to their credit seem to always have a way of calling if they're going to be late and never have lame excuses.

For everyone else, you have to pay-to-play, and if you're not responsible enough to do that, then I assume I was dealing with a prospective flake.  I often require $25 (payable in cash at end of shoot) to book TF work.  Amazingly the smart girls don't balk.    It's just too easy people.

I am puzzled that the models contacting me requesting a shoot have not provided me with their loan history and credit report.

Should I ask for it right away?

In my area women who have attained a J.D. are disinterested in getting amateur topless shots of themselves, and don't put up a profile on a free, public glamour modeling site.

NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:
No one has ever flaked on me. Okay, there was that one time but I don't count it because she was from Craigslist and we did eventually shoot.

When a photographer claims they've never had a flake, it's usually because their definition of a flake is stricter.

Teila K Day Photography wrote:

You nailed it.  100% correct.  It really isn't rocket science although too many photographers seem to think dealing with flakes has to be a reality for them.  You hit the dynamics straight on the head... if you're not paying enough to outweigh whatever else is on a model's mind, then your the amount you're paying doesn't amount to squat as far as the model is concerned.

Try this:

Pay $1,500 cash, after only working the model for 1/2 hour.   Tell her that you'd like to set up a shoot for next week, for the same amount of work, for the same amount of her time.  So you pay her $1,500 the next shoot as well.  Now at this point you've established yourself as a cash cow and your number of flakes will drop to z-e-r-o unless you're courting the *largely* irresponsible, under educated, stripper types. Yes, I said it.   You'd have to be a fool to pay that much today, but you get my point.  You have to have something worth showing up for.

Nothing against strippers, but if you're looking for the epitome of responsible people, strippers aren't where you look, which brings me to my point,  Most photographers who deal with flakes are courting the wrong models to begin with.  You field models that are educated, responsible, and have a pattern of showing responsibility.   Face it, a model with an extensive loan history and a near perfect credit score is less likely to flake than Suzy Q., who can't even keep her cell phone turned on without *ever* having it turned off due to non payment of the cell bill and a credit score that's lower than her IQ...

As a photographer you have to be able to know at least something about basic demography and what types of people generally keep your life problem free.  It's common freaking sense.  Banks do it.  Insurance companies do it.  The Federal Government / military does it.  You have to *discriminate* based on responsible traits and things that show a positive pattern.
A model with a J.D. isn't likely to flake compared to a model who's been working for the last 3.5 years on an A.A. degree in "communications"...    get real people.

Money and education talks.

... but of course for those of you who like to be all inclusive, and deal with flakes while beating your heads against the wall... rock on! 

Over about 18 years of dealing with amateur models, to include the many I meet on the street... not one flake.  nada. nil. zero. zilch. zip. nothing.   Why?  I almost exclusively deal with people who speak a certain way, have a certain level of education, college kids in their senior year or more in highly viable majors of study (engineering vs. elementary education for example), and my favorite, soccer moms, teachers, and business owners, etc... who to their credit seem to always have a way of calling if they're going to be late and never have lame excuses.

For everyone else, you have to pay-to-play, and if you're not responsible enough to do that, then I assume I was dealing with a prospective flake.  I often require $25 (payable in cash at end of shoot) to book TF work.  Amazingly the smart girls don't balk.    It's just too easy people.

I know full time models with agencies who don't have a JD.   I can't imagine a model providing her credit history for any kind of shoot and   I know PLENTY of professional photographers who have had models flake and these were agency girls.   Just ask some of the folks who worked with the late Gia.   Most fashion models are under 25 and lack a degree.   Photographers on sites like these are focused on young women who they want to do nudes, glamour or fashion like work.   Most aren't paying and in some cases models flake.    How would anyone know someones educational level in a brief meeting on a street or via a PM on this site.

How would anyone know about a models loan history or even care.   Excuse me but before we shoot I need to know your FICO score.   That is ridiculous.   So let me repeat this.   Well known shooters have had flakes.   One reason agencies send new talent to test is to get feed back.   Models who arrive late or don't show or are a problem are reported to their agency.   They simply can't afford to lose a client over a silly or irresponsible model.

Rp-photo wrote:

When a photographer claims they've never had a flake, it's usually because their definition of a flake is stricter.

I'm calling a "flake" a no-show, where I'm standing at the designated place and time with a camera in hand and the model never shows. That happened to me once, and even then we ended up shooting another time.

What I'm calling a "soft flake" is I'm starting to notice the degree to which some people indicate strong interest initially and then fade away.

Fotopia wrote:
I am puzzled that the models contacting me requesting a shoot have not provided me with their loan history and credit report.

Should I ask for it right away?

In my area women who have attained a J.D. are disinterested in getting amateur topless shots of themselves, and don't put up a profile on a free, public glamour modeling site.

Sounds like *you* actually would be "puzzled" and have to ask in order to figure it out, but a lot of us can deduce a lot about a person by where they attend school, whether or not they've been paying monthly $625 HOA dues for the last two years, mixed with what they wear, how they speak, their experiences, etc...   We know of course that nothing is written in stone, but for many of us, a creating a pretty accurate mental profile of prospective models/clients isn't rocket science.

I'm just going to go out on a limb and guess that you p-r-o-b-a-b-l-y don't live in an area(s) more exclusive than I, and in the California Bay Area, Indianapolis, Vermont, and practically anywhere where the median education is grad school or higher and the median area income well over $80k per annum... you'll almost always find unconventional photography whether the nudity is placed on MM or otherwise... Irrespective of what happens in your particular locale.

Further (of course), *most* women who are on MM, aren't interested in getting topless shots of themselves.

Your local credit bureau might publish weekly/monthly booklets on who's bought what, when, and for how much, permits pulled, loans applied for, etc..  There are countless tools to help you get an accurate profile on who you're dealing with in business or your art.  If you're honestly "puzzled" and think that you would have to have a  model provide you with anything in order for you to have a clue in regard to who you're working with, tells me a lot. 

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I know full time models with agencies who don't have a JD.   I can't imagine a model providing her credit history for any kind of shoot and   I know PLENTY of professional photographers who have had models flake and these were agency girls.   Just ask some of the folks who worked with the late Gia.   Most fashion models are under 25 and lack a degree.   Photographers on sites like these are focused on young women who they want to do nudes, glamour or fashion like work.   Most aren't paying and in some cases models flake.    How would anyone know someones educational level in a brief meeting on a street or via a PM on this site.

How would anyone know about a models loan history or even care.   Excuse me but before we shoot I need to know your FICO score.   That is ridiculous.   So let me repeat this.   Well known shooters have had flakes.   One reason agencies send new talent to test is to get feed back.   Models who arrive late or don't show or are a problem are reported to their agency.   They simply can't afford to lose a client over a silly or irresponsible model.

:: blink ::   blink  ::  Ok, it's clear that at least some of you are in the stone age as far as business is concerned.  (sigh)  Did you really mention Gia as if agencies didn't know she was a coked-out-flake?  If you know you can make a lot of money off a flake then you're a fool not to shoot him/her, which was Gia's case. She was just a piece of meat.  She died a mess, and agencies were onto the next big thing.

(sigh)

1.  "Most fashion models are under 25 and lack a degree".  Irrelevant since most photographers on MM aren't shooting "fashion models".   The education of "most fashion models" also has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on where you pull *your* models from.   Stay on point.

2.  "How would anyone know about a models loan history or even care".   You know what they say "if you have to ask..."
Do you really think you need to pull a FICO score to get a clue?  Do you really have trouble detecting those around you that have bad credit?  It goes without saying that we're not talking about absolutes, but gee whiz, if you have trouble making an accurate assessment of a person most of the time, then I say you need to focus on the business of photography more than pressing the shutter.  I mean you have a *lot* to learn about social science by the questions you're asking even if they're rhetorical.    It's about making an overall assessment.  Great credit shows up, is on time, and is more reasonable over a myriad of situations when compared to those with poor credit.  Great credit is usually (not always) more responsible than poor credit.  There's a reason some businesses require patrons to use a (non debit) credit card, etc...  (shakes head)

3.   "How would anyone know someones educational level in a brief meeting on a street or via a PM on this site"?  Well, gee, let's see... if you ask 10 different lab assistants to model for you, and the university requirement for those assistants is that they hold a graduate degree and 18 credit hours or more in x,y,z... then it's a safe bet that they have a "degree".
If you get a model on this site via PM, and they've paid you before you shoot (to be refunded later) then what's it to you if they have a degree or even show up as long as you've covered your behind and won't be stuck with paying the hair/makeup person?  We're talking basic business 101 stuff here people.  You don't assess your prospective models?  ... even a used car salesman gets an idea of whether or not they're wasting their time showing you that used Ferrari 458 after asking a few basic questions...

4.  Stop talking about "agency models", as they are hardly relevant on this site, and or to most professional and or amateur photographers on the planet.  Same goes for people who go on about "art directors", when most photographers will never have to deal with one.

5. "Models who arrive late or don't show or are a problem are reported to their agency.  They simply can't afford to lose a client over a silly or irresponsible model."

Oh no! ... as if that hurts, since most of the agency girls are making peanuts anyway.  That's like saying a client is going to drop an agency because a super duper famous singer/model, etc., showed up to a concert, photoshoot, two hours late.  You're living in la la land.  Here's what happens in the real world... as long as singer/model/athelete can rake in the dough, clients will overwhelmingly deal with it.  But when their monetary outlay and time starts becoming worth more than what they can monetize, then, and only at that point will they be inclined to quit working with the model/agency.
Money (like beauty and education) trumps most everything else.

Fotopia wrote:

I am puzzled that the models contacting me requesting a shoot have not provided me with their loan history and credit report.

Should I ask for it right away?

In my area women who have attained a J.D. are disinterested in getting amateur topless shots of themselves, and don't put up a profile on a free, public glamour modeling site.

And yet I have shot at least 2 TF nude shoots with 28 to 32 year old female lawyers .

Teila K Day Photography wrote:

:: blink ::   blink  ::  Ok, it's clear that at least some of you are in the stone age as far as business is concerned.  (sigh)  Did you really mention Gia as if agencies didn't know she was a coked-out-flake?  If you know you can make a lot of money off a flake then you're a fool not to shoot him/her, which was Gia's case. She was just a piece of meat.  She died a mess, and agencies were onto the next big thing.

(sigh)

1.  "Most fashion models are under 25 and lack a degree".  Irrelevant since most photographers on MM aren't shooting "fashion models".   The education of "most fashion models" also has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on where you pull *your* models from.   Stay on point.

2.  "How would anyone know about a models loan history or even care".   You know what they say "if you have to ask..."
Do you really think you need to pull a FICO score to get a clue?  Do you really have trouble detecting those around you that have bad credit?  It goes without saying that we're not talking about absolutes, but gee whiz, if you have trouble making an accurate assessment of a person most of the time, then I say you need to focus on the business of photography more than pressing the shutter.  I mean you have a *lot* to learn about social science by the questions you're asking even if they're rhetorical.    It's about making an overall assessment.  Great credit shows up, is on time, and is more reasonable over a myriad of situations when compared to those with poor credit.  Great credit is usually (not always) more responsible than poor credit.  There's a reason some businesses require patrons to use a (non debit) credit card, etc...  (shakes head)

3.   "How would anyone know someones educational level in a brief meeting on a street or via a PM on this site"?  Well, gee, let's see... if you ask 10 different lab assistants to model for you, and the university requirement for those assistants is that they hold a graduate degree and 18 credit hours or more in x,y,z... then it's a safe bet that they have a "degree".
If you get a model on this site via PM, and they've paid you before you shoot (to be refunded later) then what's it to you if they have a degree or even show up as long as you've covered your behind and won't be stuck with paying the hair/makeup person?  We're talking basic business 101 stuff here people.  You don't assess your prospective models?  ... even a used car salesman gets an idea of whether or not they're wasting their time showing you that used Ferrari 458 after asking a few basic questions...

4.  Stop talking about "agency models", as they are hardly relevant on this site, and or to most professional and or amateur photographers on the planet.  Same goes for people who go on about "art directors", when most photographers will never have to deal with one.

5. "Models who arrive late or don't show or are a problem are reported to their agency.  They simply can't afford to lose a client over a silly or irresponsible model."

Oh no! ... as if that hurts, since most of the agency girls are making peanuts anyway.  That's like saying a client is going to drop an agency because a super duper famous singer/model, etc., showed up to a concert, photoshoot, two hours late.  You're living in la la land.  Here's what happens in the real world... as long as singer/model/athelete can rake in the dough, clients will overwhelmingly deal with it.  But when their monetary outlay and time starts becoming worth more than what they can monetize, then, and only at that point will they be inclined to quit working with the model/agency.
Money (like beauty and education) trumps most everything else.

And don't forget that Marilyn Monroe chronically kept her fellow actors on set because she was significantly late or just decided not to show up. She was taking all kinds of pill to pick her up and to calm her down .  Marilyn was the prototype for today's flake.

Teila K Day Photography wrote:

:: blink ::   blink  ::  Ok, it's clear that at least some of you are in the stone age as far as business is concerned.  (sigh)  Did you really mention Gia as if agencies didn't know she was a coked-out-flake?  If you know you can make a lot of money off a flake then you're a fool not to shoot him/her, which was Gia's case. She was just a piece of meat.  She died a mess, and agencies were onto the next big thing.

(sigh)

1.  "Most fashion models are under 25 and lack a degree".  Irrelevant since most photographers on MM aren't shooting "fashion models".   The education of "most fashion models" also has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on where you pull *your* models from.   Stay on point.

2.  "How would anyone know about a models loan history or even care".   You know what they say "if you have to ask..."
Do you really think you need to pull a FICO score to get a clue?  Do you really have trouble detecting those around you that have bad credit?  It goes without saying that we're not talking about absolutes, but gee whiz, if you have trouble making an accurate assessment of a person most of the time, then I say you need to focus on the business of photography more than pressing the shutter.  I mean you have a *lot* to learn about social science by the questions you're asking even if they're rhetorical.    It's about making an overall assessment.  Great credit shows up, is on time, and is more reasonable over a myriad of situations when compared to those with poor credit.  Great credit is usually (not always) more responsible than poor credit.  There's a reason some businesses require patrons to use a (non debit) credit card, etc...  (shakes head)

3.   "How would anyone know someones educational level in a brief meeting on a street or via a PM on this site"?  Well, gee, let's see... if you ask 10 different lab assistants to model for you, and the university requirement for those assistants is that they hold a graduate degree and 18 credit hours or more in x,y,z... then it's a safe bet that they have a "degree".
If you get a model on this site via PM, and they've paid you before you shoot (to be refunded later) then what's it to you if they have a degree or even show up as long as you've covered your behind and won't be stuck with paying the hair/makeup person?  We're talking basic business 101 stuff here people.  You don't assess your prospective models?  ... even a used car salesman gets an idea of whether or not they're wasting their time showing you that used Ferrari 458 after asking a few basic questions...

4.  Stop talking about "agency models", as they are hardly relevant on this site, and or to most professional and or amateur photographers on the planet.  Same goes for people who go on about "art directors", when most photographers will never have to deal with one.

5. "Models who arrive late or don't show or are a problem are reported to their agency.  They simply can't afford to lose a client over a silly or irresponsible model."

Oh no! ... as if that hurts, since most of the agency girls are making peanuts anyway.  That's like saying a client is going to drop an agency because a super duper famous singer/model, etc., showed up to a concert, photoshoot, two hours late.  You're living in la la land.  Here's what happens in the real world... as long as singer/model/athelete can rake in the dough, clients will overwhelmingly deal with it.  But when their monetary outlay and time starts becoming worth more than what they can monetize, then, and only at that point will they be inclined to quit working with the model/agency.
Money (like beauty and education) trumps most everything else.

Do you really believe this stuff?   Really?   I could care less about some models credit score,  WTF does that have to do with how she looks or if she'll show up.   Just when I think I've heard it all.   Now vetting models comes with their loan history.   I mentioned agency models to only make the point that even they flake.   Most agency models aren't making peanuts.   Not in Chicago or NY.   Maybe in Indiana they do.   Models aren't handing over deposits either.   What do lab assistants or grad students have to do with the conversation?   Most of the models photographers on MM are young with limited money and no degree.   Many have poor credit or no credit.   Many haven't modeled much.   

What does any of that matter?   I am focused on only one thing.   How they look in front of my lens.   I'm not into trying to analyze  my models beyond their ability to look good.   Hey, Teila one of my models featured on my profile is rich.   She is worth several million dollars.   Can you tell?   I'm guessing she has A plus credit.   I know she has a gold AMEX.   I didn't know when she asked to shoot with me.   Gotta work on my good credit or bad credit history skills because that's the most thing when shooting models.   Not how they look.

Teila K Day Photography wrote:

You nailed it.  100% correct.  It really isn't rocket science although too many photographers seem to think dealing with flakes has to be a reality for them.  You hit the dynamics straight on the head... if you're not paying enough to outweigh whatever else is on a model's mind, then your the amount you're paying doesn't amount to squat as far as the model is concerned.

Try this:

Pay $1,500 cash, after only working the model for 1/2 hour.   Tell her that you'd like to set up a shoot for next week, for the same amount of work, for the same amount of her time.  So you pay her $1,500 the next shoot as well.  Now at this point you've established yourself as a cash cow and your number of flakes will drop to z-e-r-o unless you're courting the *largely* irresponsible, under educated, stripper types. Yes, I said it.   You'd have to be a fool to pay that much today, but you get my point.  You have to have something worth showing up for.

Nothing against strippers, but if you're looking for the epitome of responsible people, strippers aren't where you look, which brings me to my point,  Most photographers who deal with flakes are courting the wrong models to begin with.  You field models that are educated, responsible, and have a pattern of showing responsibility.   Face it, a model with an extensive loan history and a near perfect credit score is less likely to flake than Suzy Q., who can't even keep her cell phone turned on without *ever* having it turned off due to non payment of the cell bill and a credit score that's lower than her IQ...

As a photographer you have to be able to know at least something about basic demography and what types of people generally keep your life problem free.  It's common freaking sense.  Banks do it.  Insurance companies do it.  The Federal Government / military does it.  You have to *discriminate* based on responsible traits and things that show a positive pattern.
A model with a J.D. isn't likely to flake compared to a model who's been working for the last 3.5 years on an A.A. degree in "communications"...    get real people.

Money and education talks.

I think you raise some good points

Money ,

and Qualtiy of a PHotographers Work

Both Talk

Garry k wrote:
I have done over 200 creative shoots and probably have had about a 5 per cent flake rate ( actual shoots booked and the model has not shown up )

But lots of preliminary conversations that meander along for some time ( generally due to the model not responding to whatever i have written ) . Usually these conversations peter out but occassionally they result in a shoot

I am a patient man and have waited up to 7 years to shoot a model that has caught my eye ( like this one who I first met when she was about 17 ) I met her in the real world , she achieved some fame and I would run into her occassionally here and there

https://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pic/37729561  plus 18 for implied

Sometimes it becomes almost a game

I recall conversing with a Seattle Model ( who frequents my city ) for over a year ... a year of promises to shoot with me and even one last minute "cancellation " when she was in town ...Finally I'd had enough of her antics - so i told her I would be posting all of our conversation on FB for the awareness of other photographers in my city ...After that - Miss Model could not get her fast enough to shoot with me .. She drove up immediatly and gave me progress reports every hour as to where she was .Brought some expensive Bling with her ( including a reportedly $10 K Chanel Purse - and even posed topelss for me ..All for free )

Patience has its rewards ( sometimes )

Did she have good credit?   That's important.   Jokes aside.   You are in a unique position.   You shoot models at fashion shows and have built up a good reputation, further you display lots of world class faces and worked with a young Coco.   Lets be candid many us don't have these advantages.   I don't for sure nor do I get all that bent out of shape over flakes soft or not.   I fully understand that sometimes folks change their minds.   I also don't do a million texts, calls or emails.   Personally I wouldn't have threatened to post a conversation on FB but you didn't.   I get that my photos aren't going to always be something  models will break their necks to do.   They want to be paid.

So when some break off conversations I move on.   Several years ago a MM would go back and forth with me finally coming through.   She confessed after we talked about why she had no showed.   She told me she didn't have a stable place to stay and didn't want to leave her things with the folks she roomed with.  This was confirmed by her two big as# bags and a laptop, etc.   People have lives and things happen.   Learn to not take things personally (general and not meant for you.)   I have no desire to vet potential models either or ask them for deposits.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Did she have good credit?   That's important.   Jokes aside.   You are in a unique position.   You shoot models at fashion shows and have built up a good reputation, further you display lots of world class faces and worked with a young Coco.   Lets be candid many us don't have these advantages.   I don't for sure nor do I get all that bent out of shape over flakes soft or not.   I fully understand that sometimes folks change their minds.   I also don't do a million texts, calls or emails.   Personally I wouldn't have threatened to post a conversation on FB but you didn't.   I get that my photos aren't going to always be something  models will break their necks to do.   They want to be paid.

So when some break off conversations I move on.   Several years ago a MM would go back and forth with me finally coming through.   She confessed after we talked about why she had no showed.   She told me she didn't have a stable place to stay and didn't want to leave her things with the folks she roomed with.  This was confirmed by her two big as# bags and a laptop, etc.   People have lives and things happen.   Learn to not take things personally (general and not meant for you.)   I have no desire to vet potential models either or ask them for deposits.

Thanks Tony - I have shared the secrets of my success with You  personally - and I can really see no reason why you could not replicate what i have done

I am presently shooting a ton of models - but i am not making a ton of money doing so ( good thing i have income from other sources )

Nothing is perfect- but I am enjoying myself

Teila K Day Photography wrote:
Try this:

Pay $1,500 cash, after only working the model for 1/2 hour.   Tell her that you'd like to set up a shoot for next week, for the same amount of work, for the same amount of her time.  So you pay her $1,500 the next shoot as well.  Now at this point you've established yourself as a cash cow and your number of flakes will drop to z-e-r-o unless you're courting the *largely* irresponsible, under educated, stripper types. Yes, I said it.   You'd have to be a fool to pay that much today, but you get my point.  You have to have something worth showing up for.

Sadly, I wish this were true but it's not. With some models, flaking is in their DNA. Looking back over the last 10 years, I'd say that the majority of models who have flaked on me were being paid...some being paid really well.

Two years ago I was booked by a client to take photos in their booth and do on-site printing as a lead-gen and to get people in their booth at a large motorcycle bikefest. They put a motorcycle in their booth and they wanted a model to sit on the bike and take photos with people. They were being paid $75/hour to literally do nothing but sit on a bike and smile 20-30 times an hour. The event was four days long...half day on day 1, full days on day 2 and 3, and a half day on day 4. They wanted to have two different models...one working on day 1 and 2, the other on 3 and 4. The models would be working a total of 10 hours each. So basically, they sit on their ass, do nothing, and make $750 "working" for 2 days.

I suggested to the client a list of models I've worked with in the past and they balked at them all. They wanted models a bit more "strippery" looking. So I ran some casting calls and found two they approved of. One had just posed in Penthouse, the other had a somewhat impressive resume. I sent out a few emails to try and vet them a bit and was unsuccessful, but the client really wanted them. Each model was told to arrive 30 minutes before they were scheduled to work in the booth to get dressed, put on makeup, etc. I checked-in with both models the day before the event and everything was a go.

Day 1: Model 1: Scheduled to arrive at 10:30 a.m. and start working at 11.
10:45 no show.
11 a.m. no show. I called...rang and rang...went to voicemail.
11:15 a.m. no show
11:30 a.m. no show. I called again and now she answers. "I'm sorry, my alarm didn't go off and I'm on the way".  I asked how far away she was and she told me less than 2 miles.
11:45 a.m. no show. I call and she answers. "I'm pulling in right now!"

The location of the event was at Cashman Field here in Las Vegas. Their convention hall is at the bottom of a really big hill and parking was a good 10 minute walk, up a hill that is about 5 flights of stairs. I had to get her a badge to get in so I walk up to the top of the hill and wait at the security check-in. She's nowhere to be seen. I call her...no answer. She calls me back 5 minutes later and tells me she's on the way, got lost, blah blah blah. I told her if she's not in the parking lot in 30 seconds to not bother. I wait 10 more minutes and she's not there. I walk back down the hill, go to the booth, and she calls me to tell me she's arrived. I told her to go fuck herself and that she was fired. For the next hour she blows my phone up leaving me nasty messages. Turns out she was in California partying the week prior and drove back to Vegas early just for this gig and really needed the money blah blah blah. I couldn't care less. If she needed the job that bad, she would have shown up on time, just like every other responsible person does with their jobs.

The client was furious over this, but not at me. Well, it turns out, there was a 3rd model working for them...one of the models off my list. She was getting paid a bit less but was only there to hand out fliers in the booth. They asked if she wanted to do the gig with the motorcycle and she was super excited to do it. She jumped right in, did an amazing job, got paid more money, and made a killing in tips, which she never once asked for. Guys just loved giving her money. I told her we did have another model booked for the last 2 days and she was fine with that, but she was absolutely awesome for the first two days...



On the night of the 2nd day, I called the second model to confirm. She said she was all good and then started complaining about the pay...which we agreed upon 2 weeks earlier. "The money is good but I'd feel a lot better if I could sell autographs in the booth or if we could setup a tip jar or something like that." I told her that we agreed upon a rate and if people gave her a tip, that's cool, but she was not to hustle for them.

Day 3. Pretty much a repeat of Day 1. I'll spare you the ugly details but the model was an hour late showing up. When she eventually answered her phone, and I asked where she was, she told me that she was still doing her hair and was waiting for her boyfriend to pick her up. ETA, about 1 hour. So she thought it would be OK to show up 2 hours late...this was the Penthouse model. I told her, like I did the first model, that she was fired and to go fuck herself. We used the fill-in model again and like the first two days, she was awesome.

My point being is that sometimes, even when you pay models, they still flake. I wish that weren't true, but it most certainly is.

Fotopia wrote:
I am puzzled that the models contacting me requesting a shoot have not provided me with their loan history and credit report.

Should I ask for it right away?

You obviously missed the point.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
How would anyone know someones educational level in a brief meeting on a street or via a PM on this site.

How would anyone know about a models loan history or even care.   Excuse me but before we shoot I need to know your FICO score.   That is ridiculous.

You obviously missed the point too.

Shot By Adam wrote:
.......
My point being is that sometimes, even when you pay models, they still flake. I wish that weren't true, but it most certainly is.

Epic story!!!!!!!  hahahahhah Classic!!

DespayreFX wrote:
right up there with "Grandma died" (again), for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnrCsaSICEE