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Wardrobe Stylist
stylist man
Posts: 34,372
New York, New York, US


Not sure where this conversation will go.   Maybe a new view of the etiquette of asking and giving a critique.

But for many of the new people,  I thought many of these threads would be good reading.

Should there be some general rules here..?
http://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=7336

Why do you beg for comments on your MM sites?
http://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=5226

Hottest Portfolios
http://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=5289

Do you want a real critique?
http://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=11069

Art or negative stereotyping?
http://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=8373

My critiques suck! Do yours?
http://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=10349

Constructive Criticism vs. The Ugly Truth?
http://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=12568

Rules posted by Reese.
http://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=3585
Oct 17 05 08:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Envy
Posts: 11,189
Nashville, Tennessee, US


Thanks for posting that.
I completely missed all of the famous quotes Paul has made over a period of time in this forum.
Thanks Paul, you've made my day.

http://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?th … 349&page=2

I hope I'm not opening a can of worms here.
Oct 17 05 09:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ProShotPhoto
Posts: 486
Bellingham, Massachusetts, US


Envy wrote:
Thanks for posting that.
I completely missed all of the famous quotes Paul has made over a period of time in this forum.
Thanks Paul, you've made my day.

http://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?th … 349&page=2

I hope I'm not opening a can of worms here.

All this demonstrates is that you can live up to your name.

Oct 17 05 09:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
spyro2122
Posts: 760
Orlando, Florida, US


that is interesting.
Oct 17 05 09:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ProShotPhoto
Posts: 486
Bellingham, Massachusetts, US


MHana wrote:
Not sure where this conversation will go.   Maybe a new view of the etiquette of asking and giving a critique.

Now who in their right mind would want to create rules or adequate of a critique forum.

There is nothing polite about telling anyone that their works is not of a reasonable quality. 

We can all criticize each others personality - or choose to critique another for their spelling (my personal favorite failing) - or choose to critique another for the language they use - but the subject of the board is the art- the photos - the pictures the models etc.  Anytime someone brings this up in this forum they are completely off topic.

The people who will take criticism poorly and without humor, or the people who think a critique f other work is a personal attack should simply stay clear of the threads.  These people are clearly not mature enough to handle the thoughts of other people.

Oct 17 05 09:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Envy
Posts: 11,189
Nashville, Tennessee, US


ProShotPhoto wrote:

All this demonstrates is that you can live up to your name.

Oct 17 05 10:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Wicked Reflections
Posts: 306


If there are to be 'general rules' please keep them simple, straightforward and have as few as possible.

I think the general feeling has been, if you are going to critique someone elses work at least give examples of what you are talking about instead of just 'they all suck, go away'. However, I would rather have that pop up from time to time then for someone who came and asked for the comments of others to start complaining that someone broke the rules and wasn't nice enough so please ban them k thx bye.

You get feedback you don't like, let it go. There are enough new posts on here every day that it will be buried in a day or two never to be seen or heard from again. But even in the harshest critiques I have seen in this forum, there has always been some fair and objective truth behind most of it and I'd hate to lose that.
Oct 17 05 10:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Studio 925
Posts: 7,034
Antioch, California, US


Sometimes, critiques aren't given by the right people. Take for example the following scenarios.

- B&W Photography
- Natural Light Photography
- Combination of Natural Light and Flash Fill Photography

Sometimes, when a critique on such images is harsh, I go and take a look at the portfolios and websites of the photographers giving the critique and many times I see photographers who demonstrate a skill level in taking studio shots, but few, if zero, of the above.

That doesn't mean they don't know squat, but what it could mean is that many of them are applying studio shooting rules, biases and disciplines to images that don't follow any of those conventions. In short, my opinion is, they are not qualified to give an educated and objective critique on such material. What usually happens next is that the critiquer will throw in an ending comment that falls under the guise of a professional opinion, which can potentially do more harm than good.

I am not absolving myself from this at all. However, when I provide a critique, I do not pretend to know all the details involved in making the picture and try to stick to suggestions and, or provide a view of how I would've taken/created the photograph. If the critique is for a model, it's focused on her looks and modeling technique and not so much the photographer's work. Though, there are some things about a photograph that can obviously distract and immediately trigger a personal bias.

Which leads me to my final point. Many of the critiques are based on personal bias and there's certainly nothing wrong with it. The trouble comes when personal bias and assumptions is also made to look like a final professional opinion. That's when dissention occurs.

So, my personal advise for all entering the critique forums, is to check not only your egos at the door, but also your business credentials and hidden agendas (if any). Try to aim first for the critique requests featuring a body of work that falls into your line of work and when commenting, do it objectively with constructive criticism. If it involves a body of work that is not your line, try to stay away from posting snap judgements, but provide polite and if at all possible, helpful observations.

If you feel indifferent to the body of work, or to the model's looks, skip it and move on. All of our purposes here is for community involvement, self-help, self improvement, education and awareness in addition to the entertainment. When you become anything other than helpful, then you are really not contributing to the community.

One last mention are for those who continually ask for critiques, but do not bother to come back and critique others. This is self-serving and unsupportive behavior.

Just my too shents.
Oct 17 05 10:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ProShotPhoto
Posts: 486
Bellingham, Massachusetts, US


Envy wrote:

Oct 17 05 11:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Envy
Posts: 11,189
Nashville, Tennessee, US


I was a bit confused as to how that applied to my post or if it did.
I'm still scratching my head.
Oct 18 05 12:35 am  Link  Quote 
Wardrobe Stylist
stylist man
Posts: 34,372
New York, New York, US


ProShotPhoto wrote:

Now who in their right mind would want to create rules or adequate of a critique forum.

There is nothing polite about telling anyone that their works is not of a reasonable quality. 

We can all criticize each others personality - or choose to critique another for their spelling (my personal favorite failing) - or choose to critique another for the language they use - but the subject of the board is the art- the photos - the pictures the models etc.  Anytime someone brings this up in this forum they are completely off topic.

The people who will take criticism poorly and without humor, or the people who think a critique f other work is a personal attack should simply stay clear of the threads.  These people are clearly not mature enough to handle the thoughts of other people.

Oh well,  maybe you should report me.

Not saying there should be rules.   We are happy with the mayhem.   I am just catching some of the new people up to date with some interesting conversations so that we do not have the same ones again and again and again.

A bit of critique etiquette is just that,  act how you wish to a degree as long as you follow the loose rules.

I do think that if you ask for a critique then you should try to critique one or two other people.


I make no other judgement on those thread other than that.   I think you read more into it than is there.   One of the points I try to make on the boards is that these boards include people from a wide area with various backgrounds,   language is often misunderstood.   One person's rudeness is another person's simple honesty.   

The information is there,   that is all.

Oct 18 05 08:09 am  Link  Quote 
Wardrobe Stylist
stylist man
Posts: 34,372
New York, New York, US


Wicked Reflections wrote:
If there are to be 'general rules' please keep them simple, straightforward and have as few as possible.

Again,  sorry for the misunderstanding.   I am just trying to let the new people know the views of some of the threads that have critiqued the critique section.   

We are not about to make special rules for the critique section.

Oct 18 05 08:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Studio 925
Posts: 7,034
Antioch, California, US


Hey guys,

I don't want to piss off anyone (seriously), but maybe this feedback from a photographer might help. I'll keep his name anonymous. On his profile, he admits to being an Amateur, in school learning about photography. He has about less than 10 photo shoot experiences with models and probably a shit load of abstract b&w stuff. Use his feedback as a wake up call of sorts.

BTW, thanks for adding something CONSTRUCTIVE to my critique thread. Some of those pro guys are serious assholes. They've got plenty of technical skill but their modelling shots look like they belong in a JC Penney catalog. BORING. It doesn't exactly help a new guy to be insulting just because I don't want to copy their style, you know?

In his thread, I didn't nitpick, just wrote a couple of comments about three of his images and how I would've shot them if I were behind the camera. The general tone of my critique was, "Not bad, pretty good. For shot 1, 2 and 3, I would've.... Maybe doing something ... would help...blah, blah, blah."

See how that can set the tone of the critique as helpful and also put the person at ease as well as encourage? I'm not saying for all of you to copy me, and I'm not saying I'm a master critiquer, but c'mon now, you all can be courteous when you want and remember, some of the beginners want a perspective. Give them one. Give them yours and give it to them nice.

Perspective to many means, "I'm kinda new at this, I'm curious how you would've taken this shot (or how would you have posed in this shot?)"

See what I mean?
Oct 18 05 10:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer

Posts: 5,194
New York, New York, US


Wow, this is cool.
Dec 09 05 08:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Hair Stylist
Olivier
Posts: 360


I posted this on another post already but worth mentioning again here.
Please look at the profile first before leaving comments on the photos.
I had a photographer making technical photography comments on my portfolio , I am a hairstylist and not a photographer. I always make sure i gave credits to everyone i work with and if they are on MM i have a link to their portfolio as well. So if you feel the need to talk about a specific part, make sure you do it to the right person smile
Dec 09 05 10:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Star
Posts: 17,914
Los Angeles, California, US


So, it would be crass for me to beg for comments in this thread

:*
Dec 09 05 10:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Miss Kat
Posts: 113
Los Angeles, California, US


lol @ star!!  ^_^
Dec 10 05 05:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Hair Stylist
rick lesser
Posts: 690
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US


I got so involved in reading all the posts for this I forgot the question!  Then I went back and well...  I don't claim to be an expert in areas other then my chosen line of work.  I tell clients I get paid for my opinion when it comes to hair, makeup, wardrobe.  (Works every time)!  And of course if you ask for my opinion I'll be happy to offer it.  I try and stay close to home so I look like I know what I'm talking about!  With modeling and images there are certian things that are just a given with our industry.  Basic's I guess?  When I read the critique's, even tags I haven't seen any that are really hurtful.  All in all I'd say some are too nice.  Max Factor said it best when he said ''I give women hope" And there is a lot of hope being given!  I  try what is known as the sandwhich, something positive, then the negative, then the positive again.  And on that note, I'm saying good nite!  R-
Dec 11 05 09:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer

Posts: 5,194
New York, New York, US


rick lesser wrote:
All in all I'd say some are too nice.  Max Factor said it best when he said ''I give women hope" And there is a lot of hope being given!  I  try what is known as the sandwhich, something positive, then the negative, then the positive again.  And on that note, I'm saying good nite!  R-

I agree.  It is hard for a person to hear when it is mostly or all negative.   My mother has a bad habit of starting a sentence with some version of no.   I try to not do that myself.

A friend taught me well that even if you have something harsh to say,  start with a truthful postive and then give them the bad news.   The person is more likely to listen and not feel attacked.

At a job,  a manager used to great me with yelling from across the room what I did wrong just as I walked in the door.   Geez,  Can I at least punch in before I get hasseled.   It was a bartending job so wow I was 50 cents short,   is that reason to piss me off even before I start the day?

But I do hope that this critique section does not become too much of a love fest.   For I do not understand how people can only listen to obviously false praise.   I want to hear the truth.

Do not beat me over the head with the negative but I do not think I need a parade with flowers thrown from the crowd either.

Dec 11 05 09:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Wardrobe Stylist
stylist man
Posts: 34,372
New York, New York, US


Bump.
Dec 16 07 02:29 am  Link  Quote 
Clothing Designer
nothing
Posts: 9,229
Okinawa, Okinawa, Japan


there are different levels of critiques and I think people should realize that before they ask for one.

1. Small general opinion critiques, such as how do my new pictures look?, or can I change anything?, or do you like picture A or B?

2. A more in depth critique, usually on a single image or a small series.

3. A general portfolio critique

4. An in depth portfolio critique

The more in depth you get the less useful the critique forums gets. IMO the critique forum is best for 1, maybe 2 and 3 depending on what you need.

4 is best left for a mentor, and depending on how thorough the critique you want, 2 and 3 also.
Dec 16 07 05:32 am  Link  Quote 
Wardrobe Stylist
stylist man
Posts: 34,372
New York, New York, US


Late night bump of an old thread.
Apr 21 08 03:20 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
K E E L I N G
Posts: 39,775
Peoria, Illinois, US


I have a different point of view on the "asking for comments" issue.  It is somewhat en vogue to belittle the requester as being an attention whore, and most who are against, including the thread you linked say that they don't understand why some do it.

I do it, and here is why: 

This is a networking site.  It's not an image hosting site, it isn't an art gallery, and it's not a critique website.  It's a networking site.  If that is the case (it is), then shouldn't I be doing exactly that, networking? 

When I go to the announcement page and say "All Comments Appreciated and Returned", it's really a mass mailer for me, putting my portfolio in front of people I can't normally.  I could do like some and announce "I'm having tomato soup for lunch today!", but who cares?  I'd much rather invite someone to come and look at my images, the thing that sells me.

If someone is here to sit back and rest on their laurels, then they are not taking advantage of the tools that Tyler has put in place.  To me, they are here for the wrong reason.  They may be better served someplace like Deviant Art, or whatever genre they deal in's equivelant.

I don't need attention, I get plenty of it.  My ego is stroked everyday here and other places, it's irrelevant to me.  What I do need is that model who is 3 states away and who does incredible work,  to spot me and drive over to shoot with me.  I am in Peoria, Il. I rely on people from other places.
Apr 21 08 12:49 pm  Link  Quote 
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