we all need to get our start somewhere, someway, somehow, but there's a lot of misinformation going on about the way to go about this, which actually affects new photographers more than it affects the industry as a whole, or more established photographers. there's a distinct difference between "building your book" and giving your work away.
i've shot stuff for free to get my book started. i have also made the mistake of giving my work away when i shouldn't have. i hope this will help those starting out to understand the difference.
if the resulting images are going into everyone’s portfolio, then shoot it for free.
if everyone involved (you, model, makeup, hair, etc) are all at the same level (i.e. just starting out), shoot it for free.
if someone involved is at a level higher than you, is actually willing to work with you, and it’s a portfolio shoot, shoot it for free. you will be benefitting greatly from this shoot by learning from someone who has been in the industry longer than you, whether that person is a model, makeup artist, etc...
if a clothing designer is willing to lend you clothes for your shoot in exchange for images for non-commercial use, shoot it for free. at this point in your career, designer clothes are a godsend.
if you walk into a modeling agency like elite, ford, next, etc... and they actually like your work enough to send you home with a stack of comp cards, shoot those girls for free.
after all these free shoots, you should have a pretty decent portfolio. so when do you get paid?
if the resulting images are going into everyone’s portfolio but yours, stop it, you need to get paid cause you are giving your work away.
if you are at a level much higher than everyone else involved, stop it, you need to get paid cause you are giving your work away.
if a clothing designer is looking to shoot her lookbook, which is a catalog aimed at clothing buyers of stores which will be carrying her fall line next season, and she wants you to shoot it for free because it’s great exposure for you, stop it, you need to get paid cause you are giving your work away. the truth of the matter is, your images on that lookbook is what is really selling her clothing, and her success is SOLELY dependent on your photography.
if the modeling agency that sent you home with a stack of cards is happy with the resulting images from those free test shoots, and is now calling you to test with their new girls and wants you to shoot if for free, stop it, you need to get paid cause you are giving your work away. your work is now an asset to them and by calling you they are telling you that your images are getting their girls booked for thousand dollar jobs. models need to invest in these images, because the return is much greater.
if your images will be used in ANY commercial sense and you are asked to shoot if for free, stop it, you need to get paid cause you are giving your work away.
NEVER compete on price or rate. you need to value your own work before anyone else will deem your work valuable. everything is visual. photographs are responsible for selling everything. everything. when you look at a print ad, the first thing you see is a photograph. not the text, not the catchphrase. it’s the half naked girl sitting on the tire. without photographs, companies would have a tough time selling products. that’s why they are worth a thousand words.
there is enough work out there for everyone. it may not seem like it, but there really is. those not getting any work are just going about it the wrong way, and/or are giving their work away constantly.
You should have charged for this advice....I would have paid for this a long time ago when I was just starting out. It is advice you can take to the bank.
Sean Armenta wrote: we all need to get our start somewhere, someway, somehow, but there's a lot of misinformation going on about the way to go about this, which actually affects new photographers more than it affects the industry as a whole, or more established photographers. there's a distinct difference between "building your book" and giving your work away.
i've shot stuff for free to get my book started. i have also made the mistake of giving my work away when i shouldn't have. i hope this will help those starting out to understand the difference.
if the resulting images are going into everyone’s portfolio, then shoot it for free.
if everyone involved (you, model, makeup, hair, etc) are all at the same level (i.e. just starting out), shoot it for free.
if someone involved is at a level higher than you, is actually willing to work with you, and it’s a portfolio shoot, shoot it for free. you will be benefitting greatly from this shoot by learning from someone who has been in the industry longer than you, whether that person is a model, makeup artist, etc...
if a clothing designer is willing to lend you clothes for your shoot in exchange for images for non-commercial use, shoot it for free. at this point in your career, designer clothes are a godsend.
if you walk into a modeling agency like elite, ford, next, etc... and they actually like your work enough to send you home with a stack of comp cards, shoot those girls for free.
after all these free shoots, you should have a pretty decent portfolio. so when do you get paid?
if the resulting images are going into everyone’s portfolio but yours, stop it, you need to get paid cause you are giving your work away.
if you are at a level much higher than everyone else involved, stop it, you need to get paid cause you are giving your work away.
if a clothing designer is looking to shoot her lookbook, which is a catalog aimed at clothing buyers of stores which will be carrying her fall line next season, and she wants you to shoot it for free because it’s great exposure for you, stop it, you need to get paid cause you are giving your work away. the truth of the matter is, your images on that lookbook is what is really selling her clothing, and her success is SOLELY dependent on your photography.
if the modeling agency that sent you home with a stack of cards is happy with the resulting images from those free test shoots, and is now calling you to test with their new girls and wants you to shoot if for free, stop it, you need to get paid cause you are giving your work away. your work is now an asset to them and by calling you they are telling you that your images are getting their girls booked for thousand dollar jobs. models need to invest in these images, because the return is much greater.
if your images will be used in ANY commercial sense and you are asked to shoot if for free, stop it, you need to get paid cause you are giving your work away.
NEVER compete on price or rate. you need to value your own work before anyone else will deem your work valuable. everything is visual. photographs are responsible for selling everything. everything. when you look at a print ad, the first thing you see is a photograph. not the text, not the catchphrase. it’s the half naked girl sitting on the tire. without photographs, companies would have a tough time selling products. that’s why they are worth a thousand words.
there is enough work out there for everyone. it may not seem like it, but there really is. those not getting any work are just going about it the wrong way, and/or are giving their work away constantly.
Your work kicks ass Sean....... It was a pleasure to view your work.
Great post Sean... I wonder how many people will take the advice. :-)
What's your take on magazines that assign work, but don't pay? I'm not talking about submissions here.
Brooks Ayola wrote: Great post Sean... I wonder how many people will take the advice. :-)
What's your take on magazines that assign work, but don't pay? I'm not talking about submissions here.
working on that post, brooks
but in short, it depends on the magazine. will i bitch about say, vogue not wanting to pay me? hell no. but something like anaheim fashion weekly -- yeah, they're paying.
Seriously, thank you for the advice. like others, this is something that really helps on the mind set to start approaching things in a different way. Just as you said, just got my first opportunity with a designer, and it is a god send lol. I definately hate the idea of giving things away, but that is how you get your name out there, just very thankful that you took the time to help out with some solid advice.
Just another note about working for free. In most cases (not all) once you work for free, you become "the free photographer." It's very hard, no matter what they tell you in the pitch, to start charging for something you used to give away for free.
I'm doing all right for myself, and besides the obvious testing, I've never worked for free. Tearsheets are over rated as work generators.
Brooks Ayola wrote: Just another note about working for free. In most cases (not all) once you work for free, you become "the free photographer." It's very hard, no matter what they tell you in the pitch, to start charging for something you used to give away for free.
I'm doing all right for myself, and besides the obvious testing, I've never worked for free. Tearsheets are over rated as work generators.
k....You're going to have to stop being so darn cool!
Brooks Ayola wrote: Just another note about working for free. In most cases (not all) once you work for free, you become "the free photographer." It's very hard, no matter what they tell you in the pitch, to start charging for something you used to give away for free.
I'm doing all right for myself, and besides the obvious testing, I've never worked for free. Tearsheets are over rated as work generators.
eesh, I think that is what I've become with the local music scene.
Sean Armenta wrote: we all need to get our start somewhere, someway, somehow, but there's a lot of misinformation going on about ............... when you look at a print ad, the first thing you see is a photograph. not the text, not the catchphrase. it’s the half naked girl sitting on the tire. without photographs, companies would have a tough time selling products. that’s why they are worth a thousand words.
there is enough work out there for everyone. it may not seem like it, but there really is. those not getting any work are just going about it the wrong way, and/or are giving their work away constantly.
When Sean posts a thread, I read and read and read .... thanks man. You always give out great information!
a couple of questions, and this first one, has had some deliberation from fellow models of mine, and myself as well.....
when does the photographer pay the model and when does the model pay the photographer. like seriously where is that line crossed...? i've always thought and assumed it was; if a model contacts me expressing wish to work with me, then i want to charge, if i see a model i feel i want in my portfolio, then i should be willing to pay.... is that correct?
also, which books are good for business knowlege and practice?
VenusBlue imaging wrote: when does the photographer pay the model and when does the model pay the photographer. like seriously where is that line crossed...? i've always thought and assumed it was; if a model contacts me expressing wish to work with me, then i want to charge, if i see a model i feel i want in my portfolio, then i should be willing to pay.... is that correct?
Alot of people around here follow that general "rule." You can also ask for TFP if you are contacting a model, but obviously, they set the rules under which they will work, so if they say no...
Right now there's some guy who tries to make his living writing articles for photo magazines, and he's cussing you out for giving away writing for free here. . . .
Paul
(Used to write for magazines for a living)
PS - I get your general point -- but there will always be amateurs amongst us, and I'm not convinced that trying to turn them into charging professionals is ultimately the best approach to the problem.
bang bang photo wrote: Right now there's some guy who tries to make his living writing articles for photo magazines, and he's cussing you out for giving away writing for free here. . . .
Paul
(Used to write for magazines for a living)
PS - I get your general point -- but there will always be amateurs amongst us, and I'm not convinced that trying to turn them into charging professionals is ultimately the best approach to the problem.
thanks. but of course, this isn't targeted towards amateurs or hobbyists
it's just that there have been so much "how do i get paid, when do i start charging" posts, i thought it might be helpful to those starting out there career in photography.
I stopped shooting TFP five years ago.......the Internet is fine for meeting new friends and networking, but the REAL paying jobs come from beating the pavement, freelancing is just what it was 40 years ago, there`s just more people now who (think?) they can take pictures, the invent of digital and the Internet has put a severe strain on what work THINK the creative process is worth nowadays to people
I`ve met old school photographer`s who worked back in the 1960`s (LA/NYC and London) and they drove Bentley`s, Porsche`s and Ferrari`s with their wages, people were paid alot more then for their creative mind, magazine and stock work paid many mortgages and set people in a comfortable lifestyle, 70% of most magazine`s NOW are pathetically holding on by their bootstrings, the INTERNET has destroyed the income and welfare of most of them, many can`t even pay the writers, let along pay for some Photographs
(I would NEVER give my work to them for free, free exposure won`t pay the bills at the end of the month, who cares if you have a magazine cover if it`s free)
It`s alot harder now to make ends meet as a Photographer and alot of it has to do with WHERE you are located as well, working in the BIG CITIES is a great help, I myself SHOULD MOVE AWAY from Florida, while there`s NOT ENOUGH money to make here, at least in Central Florida, well I honestly need to make more than the average Photographer while I use Leica`s and I need a substancial amounts of money to upgrade my equipment after a few years, also I don`t know about Southern Florida, perhaps there`s better? money there *any input Miami Photographers?*
I hear of how fantastic it is for Photographer`s living a living in NYC and LA but it`s also really who you KNOW and HOW you market yourself that counts, I`m sure there`s people there who are NOT making it in this business
It took me years and years to find a niche' and now I offer a unique service that`s not everybody`s cup of tea, but I do offer a style of work in Retro and which only a handful of real Photographer`s are doing at present, so I can put an honest price on it and stand firm on it with my rules and rates, there`s no reason to compromise your integrity and cheapen your work by giving it away, I learned my lesson years ago about this, if people can`t afford to work with me or can negotiate for my rates, I don`t need to work with them
...and you get awful hungry when the refrigerator`s empty, so money LOOKS real good
I think that people who make a living at this have to be real confident about their work too and be positive about it, even when things look down, it`s those times when you have to put your
nose to the grindstone and with all the hard work it`s the ONLY way to be successful in this business
Ohh and those so called people who give it away for free, have BORING DAY JOBS and don`t sweat and toil for each lens and camera body they use, everyone has a differnet prospective of Photography as a whole when you work hard for it........the others they should be looking at this as just another hobby.......
Ohh and Sean your work is amazing....your Hair Stylist is BRILLIANT!
Christopher Ambler wrote: 95% of my work is trade. I shoot for free because I can. I turn down offers of paid work on a weekly basis.
Anyone who gets upset and thinks that I'm hurting their market has bigger problems.
You're not one of us. Not that my clients would shoot with you, but if you were next door to me and you were giving it away, I bet you would be hurting my market. I know you seem to be above all this, but I can't tell you how many times I've heard the line "Well, the other guy will shoot it for $1500." It's only a matter of time before that sentence changes to "the other guy will shoot it for free." How does that NOT hurt the photography market?
You're not one of us. Not that my clients would shoot with you, but if you were next door to me and you were giving it away, I bet you would be hurting my market. I know you seem to be above all this, but I can't tell you how many times I've heard the line "Well, the other guy will shoot it for $1500." It's only a matter of time before that sentence changes to "the other guy will shoot it for free." How does that NOT hurt the photography market?
You seem to be under the impression that others in your field owe you some kind of price support. If others are willing to do, for free, what you do for pay, you either need to be that much better or, if you can't (or if they're genuinely that good), you need to find a new line of work.
I don't mean this to sound harsh, but that's the reality of a free market: some people are going to give it away, and sometimes it's going to affect your bottom line.
