UdoR wrote:

A picture says more than a thousand words...

Take some communication classes in college and you'll understand the power of pictures.

pictures are used as PERSUASIVE content usually to kid or adloescent adiences.. why? visual imagery is stimulating.. logical, abstract, contemplative reasoning via verbal content is used in arguements to persuade adult adiences that are capable of non-egocentri thought.. namely, perspective taking


yeah, i've taken communication classes, but my degree is PSYCH

pamela mars wrote:
why do people automatically get angry at someone when they misinterpret something they've said.......

As, for instance, you did in a thread we were both in yesterday?  I have a theory . . . .

Alianna Kyran wrote:

Actually, the reason Kate Moss is famous is because someone spotted her in an airport when she was 14 and 5'4", loved her look and wanted a new style campaign. They wanted a SHORT model (the horror!). She was supposed to look like a CHILD, and that led to some interesting claims etc. about the industry that are not worth mentioning now. She made the campaign huge and others picked her up, because by then she had a 'name'. She is listed at 5'8" now on Storm Models' website, but many people openly argue about her height. Many models who have seen/worked with her say she is 5'5"-5'6".

She is the ultimate exception though.

I wonder why no one talks of Laetitia Casta as an exception? She's one of the best known lingerie models ever and she's 5'7".

i know!
i LOVE laetitia!

Michael McGowan wrote:
This thread is a perfect example of why I don't post often on MM.

Can somebody please add this to TX's list of "threads that will end badly"?

Will somebody please create a list of threads that will end well. It ought to be a very short list.

its...anything this me in the title...eek sorry

anywayssss......

JAY carreon wrote:

Because there are so many threads by people demanding that the industry mutate and allow short models in the runways and on editorials.

JAY carreon
PHOTOGRAPHER

Bingo

M*A*C wrote:
ok.. but which girl are we specifically aiming this thread at? the way i see it, it is a general spark of criticism devoted to telling shorter models off for being dreamers.. yea, it can be annoying when people dont get it and still persist at dream that are rather irrational, but its not your or his, or her dream.. its the short model who chooses to waste time in oblivion and wishful thinking.. (if we were all fully honest, there'd be ALOT of conflict in society... do you tell your best friend she looks ugly in a dress when she says 'i look fabulous in this?" same thing applies here.. short model goes 'oh but i want to see if i can make it'.. then someone says to her 'dont try little hobbit, its pointles..i'm telling you the truth' (let them find out for themselves..)

Have you READ the other threads yet?
It's not just that these women are delusional dreamers, it's that they come in here and ATTACK people who try to politely point out that theyr'e not suited to work in certain fields and suggest other areas where the can excel.  They respond to this with profanity, insults, and calls for short models to band together and "storm the runways," as well as things like ATTACKS on taller models that include behaviors like accusing them all of anorexia.
They start these threads CONSTANTLY.
And in doing so they spread all sorts of misinformation that leads OTHER models to believe in their delusions and follow similar misled paths PLUS there are photographers who will use this to mislead shorter women and say "Sure baby, you can walk runway, you just need to pay ME $5000 for a portfolio!"

As I noted before, sometimes mockery is the ONLY way to break through that sort of hardened willful ignorance, and ultimately it IS intended to help.

Alianna Kyran wrote:
I wonder why no one talks of Laetitia Casta as an exception? She's one of the best known lingerie models ever and she's 5'7".

Because lingerie & swimwear are not high fashion

TXPhotog wrote:

As, for instance, you did in a thread we were both in yesterday?  I have a theory . . . .

no-you did and couldn't admit it due to some elite attitude.
AND the thread ended badly because of you being a smart ass.
why bother speaking to me if you disagree with everything i say.
this and the other thread is NOT about me-focus on the subject-not someone you assume is stupid.
the topic of this thread "haubbits"-now go.

SLE Photography wrote:

One cannot reason with people who're either so unreasonable themselves or so deliberately provocative that they come in with comments like the one that photo was in response to, and you yourself were showing an agenda that was not responding to reason.  You came in here with a fixed opinion determined to attack people.
Sarcasm and mockery are generally the only ways to respond to such behavior.

I'M attacking no one.. if this is an attack, then its one at the immorality involved in publicly humiliating, degrading or labeling short models.. but like stated before, i WAS given knowledge that the shorter models aparently started the war.. so the mature thing to do is, fight fire with fire.. that way, NO ONE GETS BURNT?

M*A*C wrote:
pictures are used as PERSUASIVE content usually to kid or adloescent adiences.. why? visual imagery is stimulating.. logical, abstract, contemplative reasoning via verbal content is used in arguements to persuade adult adiences that are capable of non-egocentri thought.. namely, perspective taking


yeah, i've taken communication classes, but my degree is PSYCH

Right, like someone who comes in to a thread like this and says "OMG, that's EXACTLY like calling someone a NIGGER, in MY country this would be illegal hate speech and you wouldn't be allowed to talk that way you AWFUL AWFUL PEOPLE!"
Someone like that is obviously lacking perspective.

Alianna Kyran wrote:

Actually, the reason Kate Moss is famous is because someone spotted her in an airport when she was 14 and 5'4", loved her look and wanted a new style campaign. They wanted a SHORT model (the horror!). She was supposed to look like a CHILD, and that led to some interesting claims etc. about the industry that are not worth mentioning now. She made the campaign huge and others picked her up, because by then she had a 'name'. She is listed at 5'8" now on Storm Models' website, but many people openly argue about her height. Many models who have seen/worked with her say she is 5'5"-5'6".

She is the ultimate exception though.

I wonder why no one talks of Laetitia Casta as an exception? She's one of the best known lingerie models ever and she's 5'7".

Yes, but Ms. Moss' "X-factor" allowed her to last beyond that "new style campaign" where "They wanted a SHORT model".  Her "X-factor" allowed her to continue beyond that "flash in the pan" and create a high-profile modeling career that continues to this day.

My point is that Ms. Moss and Ms. Casta have something that more than made up for their lack of height.  Can you say the same of EVERY haubbit here on MM pleading to be allowed on the runways of New York?

JAY carreon
PHOTOGRAPHER

Michael McGowan wrote:
short list.

pamela mars wrote:
no-you did and couldn't admit it due to some elite attitude.
AND the thread ended badly because of you being a smart ass.
why bother speaking to me if you disagree with everything i say.
this and the other thread is NOT about me-focus on the subject-not someone you assume is stupid.
the topic of this thread "haubbits"-now go.

HAHAHAHAHA!
I am trying not to comment on this thread, but this was just too good to pass up.
I love that attitude!

Goldie117 wrote:

How tall is she? She sure is lovely

Yes and hungry!

UdoR wrote:

... and it's beyond my logical comprehension that you still don't get "it" my dear.

Why don't you read the linked forums in the original post... read all of it and finally understand why the industry is what it is...

Then pay attention and see how short models, no matter what is being argued and who is giving the info (including designers and people who book models for the major shows) those haubbits completely ignore what is being said... and insist on their right of walking for Anna Sui at Bryant Park.

Short models in general are not being discussed here... only those who against all reason and industry reality insist on doing high fashion runway shows.

Sadly, it's similar to you, actually... you still think that this is against short models and that is completely wrong... only a small segment (but vocal like Chihuahuas) barking up the tree.

What is it you don't understand?

If you want to argue for haubbits on the MAJOR runway... please do so in any of the linked threads in the OP...

This one is just for the announcement of a new "official" term!

I am so happy that High Fashion Runway is a very small piece of pie in the Industry. Very Small..... like me!  5'3 1/2

M*A*C wrote:

ok.. but which girl are we specifically aiming this thread at?

ALL those girls that argue and start fights with experienced and knowledgable professionals who try to help them to find their niche in the industry and are concerned that those youngsters don't waste energy on unobtainable dreams and being able to discover and develop their strong points for a segment in the modeling career where they can strive.

There are too many wannabe people out there, with ulterior motifs who cash in big time on the dreams of "shorties", who cause some of them to turn into haubbits:

Photographers who charm the model with the idea that the model could do high fashion runway... ("Naomi has nothing on YOU!") and sometimes end up having sex with the model...

Modeling schools that pull out $2,000 to $5,000 (U.S.) from parents because their 15 years old 5'2" daughter really wants to be on the runway and those schools pull out Kate Moss, Devon Aoki and a few actresses who are short as well...

Friends and family, who are proud of their little munchkin "U soo prettieee!"

ANTM, who for 8 seasons promises unqualified models that they can become a model... yet... the winners are not becoming models, but receive cameo appearances at soap operas or tv series'...

Dudes on the street whose game is to get laid by a sexy shortie (yeah... shorties can be extremely sexy!!!) by talking a good talk as playas "Are u a model, ma? No???   Dayum... you should be, ma! What's your number?"

The product of those kind of "environmental reinforcement" is what comes in here for years and starting fights that they MUST be able to do high fashion runway (again... Bryant Park... not the local mall!)... and if they make up their own  reality... that's when they become haubbits!

UdoR wrote:
* haubbit© by UdoR 2007

Don't forget to trademark it

pamela mars wrote:
no-you did and couldn't admit it due to some elite attitude.

The clear record of that thread reads otherwise.  You ended up resorting to personal attacks and name-calling because you couldn't deal with the real record of the thread.  You should have been brigged for it.

pamela mars wrote:
why bother speaking to me if you disagree with everything i say.

I missed the rule where it says I have to agree with everyone I speak to on a forum.  Perhaps you could point it out to me?

pamela mars wrote:
this and the other thread is NOT about me-focus on the subject-not someone you assume is stupid.

No, it's not about you.  But you asked a question in it - one that was not directly related to the subject of the thread - and I provided an answer which, if honestly evaluated, illuminates your question.  Don't like it?  Don't ask off-topic questions in someone else's thread (or if you believe they are on-topic, don't criticize someone for answering it).

By the way, I make no assumption that you are stupid - but I observe that from time to time on the forums you act stupidly.

SLE Photography wrote:

Right, like someone who comes in to a thread like this and says "OMG, that's EXACTLY like calling someone a NIGGER, in MY country this would be illegal hate speech and you wouldn't be allowed to talk that way you AWFUL AWFUL PEOPLE!"
Someone like that is obviously lacking perspective.

i think he was just trying to demonstrate how indirect speech can be just as powerful if done in a manipulative and very conscious way.. hence, the speaker knows the underlying issue is to discourage or hold in contempt 'dreamer models'.. but, wont directly use those words.. or will eventually

JAY carreon wrote:
Yes, but Ms. Moss' "X-factor" allowed her to last beyond that "new style campaign" where "They wanted a SHORT model".  Her "X-factor" allowed her to continue beyond that "flash in the pan" and create a high-profile modeling career that continues to this day.

My point is that Ms. Moss and Ms. Casta have something that more than made up for their lack of height.  Can you say the same of EVERY haubbit here on MM pleading to be allowed on the runways of New York?

JAY carreon
PHOTOGRAPHER

I am not arguing with you, I'm just trying to point out something that I think will make it more clear to shorter models that really don't have a chance.
They for sure think they have that "x-factor", but in reality they may or may not. I'm not out to ruin anyone's hopes or dreams, but to point out as gently as possible that the reason those two models, on the shorter side of the industry, made it was because someone was looking for something that was exactly them. Or Kate Moss made a deal with the devil.

In any event, saying 'x-factor', I think gives more hope than constructive criticism.
I would never tell a beautiful 5'2" aspiring model that she should go out and pay every photographer she had the chance of working with to develop a stellar port to make it to the big time - it wouldn't matter she's 5'2" and unless she's a celebrity, she has NO chance of making it onto that runway if 5'6"/5'7" is considered short.

JAY carreon wrote:
Yes, but Ms. Moss' "X-factor" allowed her to last beyond that "new style campaign" where "They wanted a SHORT model".  Her "X-factor" allowed her to continue beyond that "flash in the pan" and create a high-profile modeling career that continues to this day.

My point is that Ms. Moss and Ms. Casta have something that more than made up for their lack of height.  Can you say the same of EVERY haubbit here on MM pleading to be allowed on the runways of New York?

JAY carreon
PHOTOGRAPHER

I am not arguing with you, I'm just trying to point out something that I think will make it more clear to shorter models that really don't have a chance.
They for sure think they have that "x-factor", but in reality they may or may not. I'm not out to ruin anyone's hopes or dreams, but to point out as gently as possible that the reason those two models, on the shorter side of the industry, made it was because someone was looking for something that was exactly them. Or Kate Moss made a deal with the devil.

In any event, saying 'x-factor', I think gives more hope than constructive criticism.
I would never tell a beautiful 5'2" aspiring model that she should go out and pay every photographer she had the chance of working with to develop a stellar port to make it to the big time - it wouldn't matter she's 5'2" and unless she's a celebrity, she has NO chance of making it onto that runway if 5'6"/5'7" is considered short.

UdoR wrote:

ALL those girls that argue and start fights with experienced and knowledgable professionals who try to help them to find their niche in the industry and are concerned that those youngsters don't waste energy on unobtainable dreams and being able to discover and develop their strong points for a segment in the modeling career where they can strive.

There are too many wannabe people out there, with ulterior motifs who cash in big time on the dreams of "shorties", who cause some of them to turn into haubbits:

Photographers who charm the model with the idea that the model could do high fashion runway... ("Naomi has nothing on YOU!") and sometimes end up having sex with the model...

Modeling schools that pull out $2,000 to $5,000 (U.S.) from parents because their 15 years old 5'2" daughter really wants to be on the runway and those schools pull out Kate Moss, Devon Aoki and a few actresses who are short as well...

Friends and family, who are proud of their little munchkin "U soo prettieee!"

ANTM, who for 8 seasons promises unqualified models that they can become a model... yet... the winners are not becoming models, but receive cameo appearances at soap operas or tv series'...

Dudes on the street whose game is to get laid by a sexy shortie (yeah... shorties can be extremely sexy!!!) by talking a good talk as playas "Are u a model, ma? No???   Dayum... you should be, ma! What's your number?"

The product of those kind of "environmental reinforcement" is what comes in here for years and starting fights that they MUST be able to do high fashion runway (again... Bryant Park... not the local mall!)... and if they make up their own  reality... that's when they become haubbits!

but my point, again.. i am highly emphasising.. DO YOU CARE, that these women continue to splurge money away on false photographers who feed them with flattery and misconcieved notions about their ability to do runway? WHY is it so important to make them see your point, if all they do is come back and spit dirt in your face?

M*A*C wrote:

but my point, again.. i am highly emphasising.. DO YOU CARE, that these women continue to splurge money away on false photographers who feed them with flattery and misconcieved notions about their ability to do runway? WHY is it so important to make them see your point, if all they do is come back and spit dirt in your face?

and yea, i've heard about those sexual encounters.. i mean, if its not technically rape, so if they want to scew each other than thats their problem.. (obviously neither knows professionalism)

TXPhotog wrote:

pamela mars wrote:
no-you did and couldn't admit it due to some elite attitude.

The clear record of that thread reads otherwise.  You ended up resorting to personal attacks and name-calling because you couldn't deal with the real record of the thread.  You should have been brigged for it.

pamela mars wrote:
why bother speaking to me if you disagree with everything i say.

I missed the rule where it says I have to agree with everyone I speak to on a forum.  Perhaps you could point it out to me?


No, it's not about you.  But you asked a question in it - one that was not directly related to the subject of the thread - and I provided an answer which, if honestly evaluated, illuminates your question.  Don't like it?  Don't ask off-topic questions in someone else's thread (or if you believe they are on-topic, don't criticize someone for answering it).

By the way, I make no assumption that you are stupid - but I observe that from time to time on the forums you act stupidly.

i called you on something that proved was correct.
meet me in person, before you say anything else to me.
even better EMAIL me-saying shit publicly will not make you more of a man.
the question wasn't off-topic or entirely serious. there is a clashing in our communication and ages and you failed to understand that thus proving my initial observation.
have a nice day.
not explaining anything else to you.
i don't take internet forums seriously.
i can't take net hermits seriously either.
my boyfriend said it best-"they're all bored people with no lives that will say anything to get a rise out of you."
now-go be all "elite" and hermit-like.
late.

Alianna Kyran wrote:

I am not arguing with you, I'm just trying to point out something that I think will make it more clear to shorter models that really don't have a chance.
They for sure think they have that "x-factor", but in reality they may or may not. I'm not out to ruin anyone's hopes or dreams, but to point out as gently as possible that the reason those two models, on the shorter side of the industry, made it was because someone was looking for something that was exactly them. Or Kate Moss made a deal with the devil.

In any event, saying 'x-factor', I think gives more hope than constructive criticism.
I would never tell a beautiful 5'2" aspiring model that she should go out and pay every photographer she had the chance of working with to develop a stellar port to make it to the big time - it wouldn't matter she's 5'2" and unless she's a celebrity, she has NO chance of making it onto that runway if 5'6"/5'7" is considered short.

i agree with you, those are wise words.. i'm not out to break their dreams either, but yea.. they are pretty much dreaming, unless of celebrity status

M*A*C wrote:
i think he was just trying to demonstrate how indirect speech can be just as powerful if done in a manipulative and very conscious way.. hence, the speaker knows the underlying issue is to discourage or hold in contempt 'dreamer models'.. but, wont directly use those words.. or will eventually

I'm sorry, but comparing a sarcastic term that's intended to point out the logical fallacies of as group whose poor reasoning is harmful to people to a derogatory term with hundreds of years of discrimination and repression behind it is hardly a righteous comparison.
It's skirting Godwin's Law.
Leaping in to a discussion and immediately whipping out "Nigger" is ridiculously argumentative and non constructive.

M*A*C wrote:

i agree with you, those are wise words.. i'm not out to break their dreams either, but yea.. they are pretty much dreaming, unless of celebrity status

everyone can dream...i dream ill be a top seller novelist and be a model but meh

M*A*C wrote:
but my point, again.. i am highly emphasising.. DO YOU CARE, that these women continue to splurge money away on false photographers who feed them with flattery and misconcieved notions about their ability to do runway? WHY is it so important to make them see your point, if all they do is come back and spit dirt in your face?

There comes a point in the abuse where no, I don't care.  But that's not my position going into any given conversation.

Perhaps it's because I have been involved in these conversations - literally thousands of them - in person, not just on the Internet.  I have seen short models who spent thousands of dollars on portfolios, modeling schools, conventions - none of which was going to help them in the slightest to be what they manifestly could not be.  And all that money was spent because nobody would tell them the truth.

These were real, breathing, caring people standing right in front of me, with their emotions right out there for everyone to see.  The reality of it is gripping.  And such experiences carry over to the 'net.  I am aware that there is a real, breathing, caring person, who is vulnerable to the very abuses I have seen so many fall prey to, on the other end of the computer screen.  Yes, I care. 

And yes, I phrase things in a way designed to get past the comfortable, encouraging, expensive and useless things that they have been told, and want to believe.

But sure enough, it is possible for people's responses to truth to be so virulent that, for them, I give up caring.

M*A*C wrote:
but my point, again.. i am highly emphasising.. DO YOU CARE, that these women continue to splurge money away on false photographers who feed them with flattery and misconcieved notions about their ability to do runway? WHY is it so important to make them see your point, if all they do is come back and spit dirt in your face?

Yes, we do care.
That's why we continue.
We reach a few of them, and that makes it worthwhile.

Why do you NOT care?

Tasha Ariel wrote:

everyone can dream...i dream ill be a top seller novelist and be a model but meh

well, that dream is quite realistic.. i cant bad mouth your creative talents, so i asume you are capable

Tasha Ariel wrote:

everyone can dream...i dream ill be a top seller novelist and be a model but meh

Of course, no one is trying to shatter them, but warning them not to spend their life-savings on soomething that is so far out in left field that they are more likely going to lose everything.

Now, I have to go to work and avoid drama for the rest of the day.

M*A*C wrote:

well, that dream is quite realistic.. i cant bad mouth your creative talents, so i asume you are capable

meh..lol

but for this runway thing...people have this idea that modeling would be fun and poof your a model..in time itll fade away just like there desire to model..and then itll leave the good models

pamela mars wrote:
i called you on something that proved was correct.
meet me in person, before you say anything else to me.
even better EMAIL me-saying shit publicly will not make you more of a man.
the question wasn't off-topic or entirely serious. there is a clashing in our communication and ages and you failed to understand that thus proving my initial observation.
have a nice day.
not explaining anything else to you.
i don't take internet forums seriously.
i can't take net hermits seriously either.
my boyfriend said it best-"they're all bored people with no lives that will say anything to get a rise out of you."
now-go be all "elite" and hermit-like.
late.

In other words, you're a troll so you're going to call anyone who has arguments you can't refute who won't rise to your bait a troll, and prove you're more elite than them by saying they're too old to understand you? 

pamela mars wrote:
i called you on something that proved was correct.

So when you called me an idiot - as you did - what exactly was it that proved you correct?  I offered a variety of tests of your assertion, none of which you have accepted.

pamela mars wrote:
meet me in person, before you say anything else to me.

Here I am, in Texas.  I'll let you buy me lunch, but I'm not going to travel to you.

pamela mars wrote:
even better EMAIL me-saying shit publicly will not make you more of a man.

Fortunately, it's not said for that purpose.  I've already blocked your MM communications - did that yesterday.  Can't imagine why I would want to take even more abuse in private.

pamela mars wrote:
the question wasn't off-topic or entirely serious. there is a clashing in our communication and ages and you failed to understand that thus proving my initial observation.

Once again you claim that something you said "wasn't . . . entirely serious".  Just like yesterday, when you expressly said it WAS serious in your initial statement.

Here's a thought:  If you don't want to be taken seriously, don't act like you have something serious to say.  Smiley faces go a long way.

SLE Photography wrote:
In other words, you're a troll so you're going to call anyone who has arguments you can't refute who won't rise to your bait a troll, and prove you're more elite than them by saying they're too old to understand you? 

I'm thinking that may be close to a Rule 1 violation, which is a shame, because I agree with it.

SLE Photography wrote:

Yes, we do care.
That's why we continue.
We reach a few of them, and that makes it worthwhile.

Why do you NOT care?

why do i not care that they want to be runway models? because i realise, in discouraging people from persuing their dreams i am actually saying 'this is absolute, it will never be, give up".. why do that? its not my dream.. people should make their own mistakes and learn from them rather than being told to believe truths that other people hold true.. we, may personally know that short models have shortcoming, but their careers are not definitive.. occassionally, there are exceptions (rarely).. so i let it be, i KNOW short girls cant be supermodels, and i may advise them on the difficulty of succeeding within the industry, but its wrong to say YOU never will be 'this or that'.. i just think its too confrontational, maybe even misleading

TXPhotog wrote:
I'm thinking that may be close to a Rule 1 violation, which is a shame, because I agree with it.

I doubt it's a violation since I just asked her a question to clarify what she was saying 

Tasha Ariel wrote:

meh..lol

but for this runway thing...people have this idea that modeling would be fun and poof your a model..in time itll fade away just like there desire to model..and then itll leave the good models

even the good models will fade girl, trust me, the industry discards them like toilet paper once they find the next 'it' thing, a younger, fresher look.. really, its a dog-eat-dog world, but while you're in it, i guess you should enjoy it

UdoR wrote:

ALL those girls that argue and start fights with experienced and knowledgable professionals who try to help them to find their niche in the industry and are concerned that those youngsters don't waste energy on unobtainable dreams and being able to discover and develop their strong points for a segment in the modeling career where they can strive.

There are too many wannabe people out there, with ulterior motifs who cash in big time on the dreams of "shorties", who cause some of them to turn into haubbits:

Photographers who charm the model with the idea that the model could do high fashion runway... ("Naomi has nothing on YOU!") and sometimes end up having sex with the model...

Modeling schools that pull out $2,000 to $5,000 (U.S.) from parents because their 15 years old 5'2" daughter really wants to be on the runway and those schools pull out Kate Moss, Devon Aoki and a few actresses who are short as well...

Friends and family, who are proud of their little munchkin "U soo prettieee!"

ANTM, who for 8 seasons promises unqualified models that they can become a model... yet... the winners are not becoming models, but receive cameo appearances at soap operas or tv series'...

Dudes on the street whose game is to get laid by a sexy shortie (yeah... shorties can be extremely sexy!!!) by talking a good talk as playas "Are u a model, ma? No???   Dayum... you should be, ma! What's your number?"

The product of those kind of "environmental reinforcement" is what comes in here for years and starting fights that they MUST be able to do high fashion runway (again... Bryant Park... not the local mall!)... and if they make up their own  reality... that's when they become haubbits!

What he said. When I first came on here (I was new to modeling) I started a thread in the forums asking if I could get fashion work if I lost weight. People were very helpful & nice 2 me, they told me even if I did lose weight I was too short for fashion PERIOD. They then suggested other modeling paths for me that I could realisticly pursue, like commercial prints. I found their advice to be very helpful & I'm spending my time more wisely going after the commercial look, instead of wasting it doing fashion shots (which is something I wouldn't get work in anyway).