christopher mangulabnan wrote:
no I think models are generally ditzy and spoiled.  I just had a last minute cancelation today not even a phone call.  Then she started making excuses saying she's nervious about meeting me at my place when I said we would shoot in a laudrymats.  Ok what other excuses can she come up with and her portfolio is horrible.  See I think thats what separates good models and bad ones.  Bad ones always finds excuses for not being where they should be and when you look attheir portfolio it really sucks not only that but it hardly changes month to month.  I am constantly updating mine and try to shoot one person a week sometimes two if they show up.  If I could I'd shoot everyday,  thats my level of commitment but no,  I think because of all the Gwc giving models leeway to not show and reschedule and make excuses, they think this is ok to do.  The problem is definitely lack of commitment and maturity and just plain not being serious about anything they do.  I am not making a blanket statement about every model but about most who think their excuses justifies everything.  Would you hire someone who doesn't show up or cancels last minute?  It is no wonder why Americas top model is so tough with all the models because no matter how beautiful they are most just can't hack it in a working environment.  Let's face it,  most models think they can get by on their looks because thats what it is supposed to be about but they don't consider it work unlike the rest of us who are photographers, makeup artist, hair stylist, set designers, fashion designers etc.....we see it as craft and art that we dedicated our lives to, to them its fashion very momentary

I had a whole long response to Ralph's post written up and MM ate it. Fuck.

But part of the gist of it was this: The problem with ranting about flaky models - or photographers who don't give images back for TFP, or pervs, or anyone else who behaves in an irresponsible and unprofessional manner - is that the very people you are complaining about are also the ones least likely to either read or care about your complaints. Flaky models don't read these forums; they're too busy on MySpace or texting their bffs or whatever. The reason a more proactive solution, which can include looking at what you're doing and seeing if it's possible that your approach may be at least partly the cause of your problem, is a better idea is that venting doesn't accomplish very much.

What exactly do you think you're accomplishing by coming on here and proclaiming that models are "ditzy and spoiled"?

David Stein wrote:
This is very interesting...What if you thought that the problem was you, although you have no idea what "it" was (this can be regarding anything I guess)...and no one has ever told you what "it" was that bothers other people...Than how do you know what to change?

Speaking on a large scale, and not restricted to modeling and photography, when I realize I'm running into the same problem over and over again, I ask people who know me well for their thoughts, and see if an outside perspective can help me find what I'm doing repeatedly that might be worth changing.

Sita Mae wrote:

Hi Ed!  Have you been running into this problem?  I'm always surprised when it happens to the good photographers.  Maybe that's naive of me.

Have you ever tried talking to photographers that a model has worked with before you book her?  I've been doing that lately, and I'm finding it tremendously helpful.  I've also been tending to shoot with models recently whom other people have highly recommended.  You know a lot of photographers, don't you?  Have you tried talking to them about who they have found to be reliable, inspiring, hard working, etc?

It's helped me a lot.  I hope that's useful to you.

During February, I had no less than 5 models flake on me.  The hard part is distinquishing who has a legitimate excuse and who's only making an excuse.  I should just have YOU recommend models to me to minimize that problem though. 

I think part of the problem (now that I look at it again) is that I constantly look to see who's new in my area.  I guess I'm looking for that "diamond in the rough", so I can shoot with her before she gets jaded by the bombardment of TFP (Time For Porn) requests.  Either that, or she actually turns out to be so good that she will only accept paid shoots (which right now my budget doesn't allow for...hell, I'M trying to make a buck at this ). 

It's funny though...Last month, after a string of flakes, I was completely ready to give up on doing anymore TFP's.  Then I shot with the model from my avatar, Elle Goodman.  We had such a great shoot that it reminded me of why I love doing this.  I want my work to progress farther than where it's at right now.  The only way to do that, IMHO, is to keep shooting.  For that though, I need willing subjects.  It's great when they're as passionate about creating art, but it sucks when you make plans with someone who doesn't care. 

Always lovin' your work by the way Sita. 

Catriona wrote:
What exactly do you think you're accomplishing by coming on here and proclaiming that models are "ditzy and spoiled"?

I don't know...sometimes I just do it to vent.  To get it off my chest so I don't carry it with me into the next shoot, or become a cynical, crotchety old man. 

Same reason I bitch about my ex-wife and her mother. 

Sita Mae wrote:
I wonder sometimes, amidst the plethora of accusatory threads that go back and forth between models and photographers, if it ever occurs to people to consider whether they are the source of their own problem.

Here's a little trick I use in my own life that may be of use to some of you:

If you find yourself running into the same problem over and over and over again in different situations with different people...you're the common denominator.  The problem might not be with them, but with you.

Example:

All the threads bitching about unreliable models.  If you run into that on a weekly basis, maybe there are other steps you can take to vet the models before you shoot them.  Have you talked with photographers they've shot with?  Do you have a good idea of what their reputation is like?  Do some homework.  It can save you all manner of grief.

Maybe consider getting inventive about ways to create solid, dependable working relationships.  Isn't that a better way to spend your time than in constant frustration, venting on MM? 

Anyway.  Just a thought.

Sita... please stop making sense.

Ed Burns Photography wrote:
I think part of the problem (now that I look at it again) is that I constantly look to see who's new in my area.  I guess I'm looking for that "diamond in the rough", so I can shoot with her before she gets jaded by the bombardment of TFP (Time For Porn) requests.  Either that, or she actually turns out to be so good that she will only accept paid shoots (which right now my budget doesn't allow for...hell, I'M trying to make a buck at this ).

At least you recognise that this might be the issue - it seems like most of the posters of the "damn these flaky models!!" threads end up mentioning that they approach newbies and offer TFP, rather than approaching experienced models and/or paying, but flat-out refuse to listen no matter how many people tell them that this might be what's going on. Though I think an experienced model would be a fool to pass up TFP with you.

Ed Burns Photography wrote:
I don't know...sometimes I just do it to vent.  To get it off my chest so I don't carry it with me into the next shoot, or become a cynical, crotchety old man. 

Same reason I bitch about my ex-wife and her mother. 

Yeah, but I assume you don't do it to their faces! It just doesn't strike me as very good business sense when photographers start angry threads generalising about what stupid, selfish, greedy, thoughtless bimbos models are...in the Model Matters forum. Which lots of models, many of whom are NOT any of those things, read, and may decide whom NOT to work with based on those rantings. Which could turn the flaky-models issue into a self-perpetuating cycle, when no non-flaky model wants to work with someone based on their pissy rants about the flakes... You know?

Catriona wrote:

I had a whole long response to Ralph's post written up and MM ate it. Fuck.

But part of the gist of it was this: The problem with ranting about flaky models - or photographers who don't give images back for TFP, or pervs, or anyone else who behaves in an irresponsible and unprofessional manner - is that the very people you are complaining about are also the ones least likely to either read or care about your complaints. Flaky models don't read these forums; they're too busy on MySpace or texting their bffs or whatever. The reason a more proactive solution, which can include looking at what you're doing and seeing if it's possible that your approach may be at least partly the cause of your problem, is a better idea is that venting doesn't accomplish very much.

What exactly do you think you're accomplishing by coming on here and proclaiming that models are "ditzy and spoiled"?

Oh - I don't disagree with this at all. My point was that I saw two subtley different but distinct issues by the OP that seemed to have been rolled into one.

Bitching about flakey models, or pervey photographers, or not getting pix is not going to solve anything. But human nature often makes us feel better just for getting the load off our chests. That's why shrinks do such a roaring trade sometimes.

Taking responsibility for someone else's lack of dedication though is beyond individual requirements in those particular cases.

Iona Lynn wrote:
Dooood logic like whoahhh, You are too smart for this place...

Yeah!  You don't belong here.   

Brooks Ayola wrote:
How come when I blame the photographers in "Why do all the models flake" threads, I look like an asshole, but when Sita does it, she's the Queen on Smart?

Sita! I'm gonna get you!!!!

You're too cute to look like an asshole!

rp_photo wrote:
Flakes are common enough that a photographer can be repeatedly affected without it being their fault.

If anything, being a recurring victim of flakes indicates that a photographer may have a fault as far being unable to smell out flakes vs. doing something that causes the flaking.

You're not actually disagreeing with anything I said. 

Though again, this thread isn't about models flaking.  That was just one of any number of examples I could have chosen.

Sita Mae wrote:

You're too cute to look like an asshole!

Whoh! Next thing, you'll start telling me how nice my "port" is. :-)

Brooks Ayola wrote:
How come when I blame the photographers in "Why do all the models flake" threads, I look like an asshole, but when Sita does it, she's the Queen on Smart?

Sita! I'm gonna get you!!!!

i know what you feel
i want to be her, but i just sound nasty
you know ,she got that smile...when she write
tb

Brooks Ayola wrote:
I just want to add that I've been doing this for close to twenty years and the closest I've been to a model flaking was an agency model on a job that told me she needed to leave early.

You're SO lucky! I've had it happen to me, but then again i'm not Sita or Brooks


*fits under Brooks arm* I'm lil!

Ed, isn't Elle awesome! I lub her!

digital Artform wrote:

If you eliminate the venting threads then what will we do for entertainment?

You just said it. If we adopt that kind of logical BS, then the forums will become VERY boring !
-Don

Brooks Ayola wrote:

Whoh! Next thing, you'll start telling me how nice my "port" is. :-)

Ahahahahaha!

BYS wrote:

i know what you feel
i want to be her, but i just sound nasty
you know ,she got that smile...when she write
tb

Ransom says there are hearts and butterflies floating around my posts.  LOL.

Toyland wrote:
I think some people deep down know that to be true,
But they are either too laze to change their ways,
or just love the drama (whoa is meeeeee!!!!!)

I'll admit it.  Sometimes I enjoy watching the drama unfold.

*hangs head in shame*

Sita Mae wrote:

Ransom says there are hearts and butterflies floating around my posts.  LOL.

He told me he was out trying to kill my butterflies


*boo*

Sita Mae wrote:

I'll admit it.  Sometimes I enjoy watching the drama unfold.

*hangs head in shame*

Put your head back up, it's entertainment!

LADY SWEET FACE wrote:

He told me he was out trying to kill my butterflies


*boo*

ahahahah!  Butterfly killer!

Sita Mae wrote:

Ransom says there are hearts and butterflies floating around my posts.  LOL.

geez Ransom  can play "french romance" also
that guy is too talented
tb

Sita Mae wrote:
I'll admit it.  Sometimes I enjoy watching the drama unfold.

*hangs head in shame*

I find it amusing too,
But I like to observe it from way over here....
high up here on my unspoiled hill.

I try to draw the line when the D-queens try to bring that crap to my studio.
Ummmmm....... Please don't soil my shoes with your drama.

Sita Mae wrote:

ahahahah!  Butterfly killer!

Ya! The killer was he said it on the phone, there wasn't any misunderstandings!

ChanStudio wrote:
It is never oneself, it is alway other people's fault.

True story:

   I went into a bank yesterday and this lady in front of me.  She was upset because she  drove too close to the curves of the ATM machine and damaged one of the plastic wheel cover on her car.  Anyway, she demanded that the bank pay for the damage, about $20.

lol...so sad