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Makeup Artist
Kristen S Makeup
Posts: 1,371
Plymouth, Massachusetts, US


244 liquid is a silicone based liquid that can be used as a thinner.  I use it if I want a dewy finish, but sometimes for me it's a little too much shine.  Most times, I stick to thining RCMA down with moisturizer for a more controllable, matte finish.

Also, as Makeupman mentioned, love mixing in Smashbox Artificial Light with RCMA!
Sep 01 08 09:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
MelodyMoher
Posts: 1,394
Palm Beach Gardens, Florida, US


Makeup by Jessica wrote:

Thanks, I kept looking at it thinking it looked funny, but I just kept on typing. I feel like a BIG  jackass!

I wouldnt if I were you... a model coming into this forum to spell check us is pathetic.

back on topic... I want to try cinema secrets too - if you get some let me know how you like it! I have MUFE and Mac (grumble) but your right the mac is not great... Im using it up and then looking for others... Mufe is pretty good though if you want to try them... they give a discount too if you go direct to them

Sep 01 08 10:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ernesto Casillas
Posts: 1,346
Los Angeles, California, US


Sep 02 08 12:01 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
EliteAirbrushMakeup
Posts: 38
Lauderdale Lakes, Florida, US


Sorry if I repeat anything but I cant read all 4 pages (lol).  I LOVE the Armani foundation that is silicone based but I wouldn't buy it (guessing it is around $50 oz at Saks but that is a guess).  It is virtually waterproof (water beaded off my hand when I went to wash it off).  I had a sample and I wore it to a club and it looked awesome but required more powder since i am more oily.  The other brands I love and use on my self almost daily is Chantecaille Just Skin tinted moisturizer and Future skin foundation ($62 & $65... too expensive to use on models but will invest in myself lol)

HOWEVER, that said...

I pretty only do airbrush makeup on all my jobs (primary editorial/fashion/print) and I am sick in LOVE with TempTu silicone based foundation (also blush/bronzer/highlighter/adjuster etc).  It is so easy to blend and once set, it is in for the long haul!  It is around $25 per oz but as an airbrush artist I do charge more and a little goes a long way....truly worth the investment!!  I pretty much airbrush everything except the eyes and lips (although I have done eyes and lips when the job requires it!)  Another reason I love the foundation is because if you dont use and airbrush (unbelievable I got stuck without it once) you can still use your foundation brush or fingers if you need to.

Peace
Cliff
Sep 02 08 12:49 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jade Eyes
Posts: 2
Vancouver, Washington, US


I know MINERAL FOUNDATION was already discussed a bit, but I wanted to get some more opinions/advice:

I've used Bare Minerals for about 2 years now....main reason because it is the only thing that has not made me break out like other foundations I've used in the past (usually liquid). I have oily skin though and it tends to not look very good as the day progresses.

Someone recently told me that mineral powder wasn't designed for oily skin either so that's why it ends up not staying very well; she told me I just need to buy a good primer.
Don't know if that's the case....

Now I'm beginning to wonder if I should try a different foundation, BUT I'm very hesitant because I have VERY sensitive facial skin and I want good coverage, but not some thick, heavy foundation that's going to look caked on.

I need some suggestions for a different type of foundation (preferrably something that is maybe more affordable, not outrageous)...

Any help would be great!! Thanks!
Apr 22 09 12:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Monkey
Posts: 12,755
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia


Jade Eyes wrote:
I know MINERAL FOUNDATION was already discussed a bit, but I wanted to get some more opinions/advice:

I've used Bare Minerals for about 2 years now....main reason because it is the only thing that has not made me break out like other foundations I've used in the past (usually liquid). I have oily skin though and it tends to not look very good as the day progresses.

Someone recently told me that mineral powder wasn't designed for oily skin either so that's why it ends up not staying very well; she told me I just need to buy a good primer.
Don't know if that's the case....

Now I'm beginning to wonder if I should try a different foundation, BUT I'm very hesitant because I have VERY sensitive facial skin and I want good coverage, but not some thick, heavy foundation that's going to look caked on.

I need some suggestions for a different type of foundation (preferrably something that is maybe more affordable, not outrageous)...

Any help would be great!! Thanks!

Hiya, thanks for using the search function - seeing you're new you should check out the 'civillians' thread for simple questions too. http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=417852

The idea of search is to have a look through threads for recommendations. If you don't find the answer you're looking for, then make a new thread with your specific question. Though I think I can safely say there is no thread about foundations that does have every situation answered lol

If you're after a 'consumer' product, Revlon ColourStay is a great liquid foundation - very sheer and can be built up for when you need more coverage without looking 'thick'. It also photographs quite well surprisingly!!

If you're happy to buy pro, I recommend Cinema Secrets.

With any foundation you should be using a good primer and a finishing powder. Smashbox photofinish is similar to my favourite from Inglot but that's not available in the US just yet.

I recommend www.fyrinnae.com for their oil-controling powder, it's clear and lasts forever.

Apr 22 09 04:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
MAKEUP ART BY MECHELLE
Posts: 2
Boston, Massachusetts, US


M.A.C has come out with about 6 new foundations in the last few years, which all photograph beatifuly, and I also like make up forever, but the productd r verry simmiler with photog, and M.A.C is alot cheaper ecpecilly if u have a pro card
Aug 30 09 02:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Cayla Parker
Posts: 218
New York, New York, US


Makeup by Jessica wrote:
It's the heaviest, ugliest foundation I've ever used. It looks light and airy on the informercial, but in person it's gross. It makes pores look bigger and by the end of the day my face was so greasy you could fry chicken on it. I also couldn't figure out why my face was always itchy and super sensitive. I don't have sensitive skin. In doing research I discovered there was an ingredient in the foundation that alot of people are sensitive to. I can't recall the name of it...sorry...It's not on the jar either. Bismuth something or another.

As far as photography goes, I wasn't brave enough to try it on a shoot. I can't imagine it would be pretty. One of the active ingredients is Titanium Dioxide, which doesn't photograph well.

My advice is try before you buy. Go in with a bare face and apply yourself. Wear it all day and then decide.



Jess

Bingo!! Had the same exact reaction- insanely oily by the end of the day, forget about what it comes out on camera. I'm also allergic to bismuth oxychloride, as many people are, and don't realize it- it's why MAC isn't a great choice for clients - many have allergies and sensitive skin too!

Dec 12 09 10:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Solvi Strifeldt
Posts: 114
Ski, Akershus, Norway


I have a makeup called "Sonya Cosmetics" who is based on natural ingredients and "Cream to powder foundation". I love it!

You can look at my work at http://strifeldt.daportfolio.com/galler … k porfolio.

The price is about 40 EURO. I dont use much because it cover very well, so you don't need Concealer.
I makeup very natural, but you can use more foundation than I do.

We have 12 colours, dark as "African", yellow as "Asian", Olives and Skandinavian skin tones.

http://bilder.strifeldt.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/kremfoundation2.jpg
(I made this, and the text is in norwegian language).

Let me know if you want to try it.

This makeup products I use, I also can sell to  my models, and I use to my customer and they love it, and want to buy it. So can you, if you want to make some extra money on your work.
You tell me, and I can help.
May 07 10 06:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
ROSHAR
Posts: 3,791
New York, New York, US


Solvi Strifeldt wrote:
I have a makeup called "Sonya Cosmetics" who is based on natural ingredients and "Cream to powder foundation". I love it!

You can look at my work at http://strifeldt.daportfolio.com/galler … k porfolio.

The price is about 40 EURO. I dont use much because it cover very well, so you don't need Concealer.
I makeup very natural, but you can use more foundation than I do.

We have 12 colours, dark as "African", yellow as "Asian", Olives and Skandinavian skin tones.

http://bilder.strifeldt.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/kremfoundation2.jpg
(I made this, and the text is in norwegian language).

Let me know if you want to try it.

This makeup products I use, I also can sell to  my models, and I use to my customer and they love it, and want to buy it. So can you, if you want to make some extra money on your work.
You tell me, and I can help.

This is so annoying- They got the answer.
Thread is a year old!

May 07 10 11:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Solvi Strifeldt
Posts: 114
Ski, Akershus, Norway


Roshar wrote:
This is so annoying- They got the answer.
Thread is a year old!

Thanks, you are very kind to me..... (not)

Rules here for this;
http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=243587
I CREATED THIS THREAD AS A RESOURCE FOR EVERYBODY. THERE IS A WEALTH OF KNOWLEDGE, READILY AT YOUR FINGERTIPS. BEFORE YOU POST, SEE IF IT'S ALREADY BEEN POSTED

***Contributions of links and information are welcome, however, let's keep this thread informative and on track, so we don't have to lock it up to preserve it.***


And the link to this thread is to find under this "rules".

And this makeup is not known, therefor the makeup is like a "news".
It is a vitamin makeup, and don't tell me you wouldn't be that person who tell about mineral makeup when it starts.

May 08 10 01:50 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Kisa - Makeup Artist
Posts: 51
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia


Honestly, for me, I like to use L'oreal's True Match foundation on my clients/models. It might be a "cheap" drugstore product, even though here in Australia they each range for $39.95, but they work great on my models/clients!
Oct 14 10 10:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Wardrobe Stylist
Killerdarling
Posts: 342
Berlin, Berlin, Germany


Makeup by Jessica wrote:
I agree with Ashley Elizabeth. They don't look good on film. I've used them for so long only because I get an industry discount. Also, their powder and blush brushes shed worse than my Chocolate Lab. Any suggestions on better brushes would be great.

I love love love my dior brushes, I had them for years, and they are still soft and never shed a single hair. they look cool to with the stainless handle. I also use alot of inglot brushes.

Oct 15 10 03:54 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
SN Makeup
Posts: 540
Corona, California, US


Keshia Dolce wrote:
Honestly, for me, I like to use L'oreal's True Match foundation on my clients/models. It might be a "cheap" drugstore product, even though here in Australia they each range for $39.95, but they work great on my models/clients!

Ouch! I could not imagine spending $40 for L'Oreal Foundation. I'd much rather use the RCMA palette. But then again, I guess I do pay $40 (prior to discount) for Face Atelier and would pay full price for it.

Oct 15 10 10:58 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Danielle Moore
Posts: 310
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia


Keshia  -  www.camerareadycosmetics.com

$60 for the RCMA pallette with 30 shades I think?   

The shipping is reasonable to Australia, and the dollar is high smile 

Just looked, doesn't look like the RCMA sampler kit is in stock.

You could go for Graftobian.  http://www.camerareadycosmetics.com/pro … te&cat=173

That is, if you're looking smile
Oct 15 10 09:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Chelsea Dutchak
Posts: 728
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


JENN LEE wrote:

yeh-- not good. if you are interested in a powder foundation id go with jane iredale.

also re a PALETTE---three custom color palette of concealers works amazingly.  Many many ppl using them here in nyc...you can sheer them out and have a huge range of colors.

Love Jane Iredale, I use the powder on myself.  I've never used it for a shoot tho, I'd be worried about the shine.  One of the selling points for mineral makeup is that it gives you a natural glow, so I would think that it's good for everyday use, but not for shoots or film.

Oct 16 10 01:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Mary
Posts: 7,148
Coronado, California, US


makeupbyDhani wrote:
Keshia  -  www.camerareadycosmetics.com

$60 for the RCMA pallette with 30 shades I think?   

The shipping is reasonable to Australia, and the dollar is high smile 

Just looked, doesn't look like the RCMA sampler kit is in stock.

You could go for Graftobian.  http://www.camerareadycosmetics.com/pro … te&cat=173

That is, if you're looking smile

RCMA samplers just came in.  Mary

Oct 16 10 02:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
NuNu-Obsession Makeup
Posts: 16
Temecula, California, US


Should I use Cinema Secrets foundation to a Client that has sensitive skin to MAC foundations? Not sure if its safe... Any suggestions...
May 05 12 09:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
KDM
Posts: 373
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


Kisa - Makeup Artist wrote:
Honestly, for me, I like to use L'oreal's True Match foundation on my clients/models. It might be a "cheap" drugstore product, even though here in Australia they each range for $39.95, but they work great on my models/clients!

$39.95?! How is that even possible? What does Mac cost in Aus?

May 06 12 12:58 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Davis W
Posts: 1,272
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Smashbox Studio Skin is my new go-to.
May 06 12 07:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Mizz Ro
Posts: 2,309
Corona, California, US


I am a newbie MUA which is why I am still using my modeling profile. I realize that this is an old thread but I just spent the past hour reading it and wanted to bump it back up to the top because there is such a wealth of information! I personally started using Cinema Secrets on myself and absolutely love it! It has taken me my whole life to find a foundation I love and I will definitely be using it with my clients. The only thing I like from MAC is the Mineralize Skinfinish Natural (Which I use as a highlight) and their eyeshadows. I use the MUFE HD Microfinish Powder over to set the foundation. Works really well for creasing issues especially in the under eye area smile
Apr 20 13 10:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Jackie McClay MUA
Posts: 155
Edison, New Jersey, US


Oh wow cinema secrets looks awesome. Great price too, I may have to invest in them!!!
Apr 22 13 06:24 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Leila Nadine
Posts: 36
Bristol, England, United Kingdom


I've recently invested in some Mehron Celebre pro HD foundations for makeup work for both camera and bridal clients, has anyone had much luck with these or have any tips on best use with it.

Many thanks

Leila
Apr 22 13 08:28 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Mizz Ro
Posts: 2,309
Corona, California, US


Makeup By Jackie P wrote:
Oh wow cinema secrets looks awesome. Great price too, I may have to invest in them!!!

It has definitely become my go to foundation! I love it! Pickin' up some more palettes next month :3 Buying makeup makes me all giddy! big_smile

Apr 22 13 07:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
LoveColor
Posts: 36
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


Mary wrote:
the RCMA sampler pallets are finally in!  I love a few brands but I keep opening the RCMA on jobs because the ease of the sampler pallets (so many colors without digging) and the color is always right on the money

Is RCMA better on dry skin? I just bought 5 or 6 of the CS palettes from you and am loving the coverage, but I keep reading that it's not good on dry/mature skin.  What do you think?  Don't want things turning out bad on a mother of a bride! Yikes!
Thanks!!!

May 29 13 04:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
LC Makeup and Styling
Posts: 90
Perth, Western Australia, Australia


Graftobian HD Creme foundation (also from mary's shop) and CS
May 29 13 06:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
LoveColor
Posts: 36
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


Oh really? I have read about so many people having a difficult time working with graftobian. I believe I saw words like "nightmare to work with'" that scares me!
May 29 13 07:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
sweetcheekscouture
Posts: 425
West Palm Beach, Florida, US


Avital  wrote:
Oh really? I have read about so many people having a difficult time working with graftobian. I believe I saw words like "nightmare to work with'" that scares me!

I never had an issue with Graftobian

May 30 13 04:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Lauren Reynolds Makeup
Posts: 282
London, England, United Kingdom


Agreed, Graftobian is really easy cos its so creamy, it just glides over the skin. I've only played with it before, not owned any palettes, but I think the struggle tends to be with dry skin (its not great for oily skin either...). Personally I prefer Cinema Secrets and RCMA because there's more flexibility with coverage and finish (Graftobian likes to be a bit dewy, RCMA and CS are more matte but I find it easier to build in shine where I want it than control shine where I don't), but every artist is different. I'd recommend getting some samples from CRC so you can try all the creams there. When/where is your nearest IMATS? Its great to have a play with things there. I'm personally not buying anything till the London IMATS in June, holding out for the discounts smile
May 30 13 05:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
LoveColor
Posts: 36
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


Lauren Reynolds MUA wrote:
Agreed, Graftobian is really easy cos its so creamy, it just glides over the skin. I've only played with it before, not owned any palettes, but I think the struggle tends to be with dry skin (its not great for oily skin either...). Personally I prefer Cinema Secrets and RCMA because there's more flexibility with coverage and finish (Graftobian likes to be a bit dewy, RCMA and CS are more matte but I find it easier to build in shine where I want it than control shine where I don't), but every artist is different. I'd recommend getting some samples from CRC so you can try all the creams there. When/where is your nearest IMATS? Its great to have a play with things there. I'm personally not buying anything till the London IMATS in June, holding out for the discounts smile

You know, I do think I read that the trouble with Graftobian was in relation to dry skin. I have Cinema Secrets and love it. I'm just trying to decide if I should get RCMA or OCC and just use it with a brush for people with dry skin. (I don't airbrush.)

No IMATS for me in the near future *sigh* I wish!!!!

May 30 13 06:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Lauren Reynolds Makeup
Posts: 282
London, England, United Kingdom


Avital  wrote:
You know, I do think I read that the trouble with Graftobian was in relation to dry skin. I have Cinema Secrets and love it. I'm just trying to decide if I should get RCMA or OCC and just use it with a brush for people with dry skin. (I don't airbrush.)

No IMATS for me in the near future *sigh* I wish!!!!

I don't know about OCC, I've never tried it, but I wouldnt buy RCMA specifically for dry skin, using it without diluting it's better for oily skin. If you're going to use it with dry skin you have to prepare skin quite carefully and I would mix in moisturiser or RCMA thinner too because RCMA is quite dry for a cream. Its a great flexible product but it certainly won't be better than CS for dryness. Unless I need heavier coverage, I like Makeup Forever Face & Body for dry and/or mature skin (waterbased liquid) smile

May 30 13 06:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
LoveColor
Posts: 36
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


Wish I would have seen this 5 min ago! just bought RCMA, oh well! smile At least I'll know how to doctor it up for dry skin til my next big purchase. Thanks!
May 30 13 09:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Sarah Zul
Posts: 43
Singapore, Singapore, Singapore


I've been using Kryolan TV paint stick and Mehron HD Celebre cream foundation. Pretty much this two. Never used MAC and don't think I ever will. I stay away brands that are meant for daily use and practical women such as those from Sephora, Bobbi Brown, Chanel etc. (Not saying that it can't be used for photography) I try to use mainly foundations meant for photography/videography. In the future, I do plan to try CS, RCMA, Graftobian but it's so difficutl to choose which one to buy first. And I do plan to get the MUFE Face & Body foundation especially for bridal work.

However, I've tried using a mineral foundation that actually looks good on camera. The brand is Lucy Minerals. Amazingly, it works and feels light on the skin. No white cast on camera. Looks like flawless real skin. Maybe stay away for oily-skinned models.
Jun 04 13 11:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Sarah Zul
Posts: 43
Singapore, Singapore, Singapore


David C Wigley wrote:
I like Make Up For Ever's Face and Body, it's all that I use, with powder, makes the skin look like Velvet!
~dc.

Does it look great in camera AND real life? I heard it's great for brides. But does it give good enough coverage for fashion photography? And what powder do you use with it?

Jun 04 13 11:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Lauren Reynolds Makeup
Posts: 282
London, England, United Kingdom


SarahZ Artistry wrote:
Does it look great in camera AND real life? I heard it's great for brides. But does it give good enough coverage for fashion photography? And what powder do you use with it?

It looks lovely in real life and on camera. Coverage is sheer to medium, works fine for those without major skin issues. Young beautiful skin (ie most models!) doesn't necessarily need heavy coverage for photography. The beauty of this foundation is in its dewy glow so I dont necessarily powder it unless the glow is too much, but its worked with Ben Nye, Maqpro and Illamasqua powders for me. Also, by powdering it you take away another of its advantages, which is that it dries to a non-transfer finish but can still be layered up.

edit: If you're curious, all these were done with MUFE Face & Body and there was very little retouching to the face in all of them (I saw the originals):


https://m.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbi … =591897634

https://m.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbi … =591897634

https://m.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbi … =591897634

Jun 05 13 12:49 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
House of Westenra
Posts: 41
Louisville, Kentucky, US


Avital  wrote:
Wish I would have seen this 5 min ago! just bought RCMA, oh well! smile At least I'll know how to doctor it up for dry skin til my next big purchase. Thanks!

What is a good way to doctor these up for dry skin?

Jun 05 13 08:29 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
LoveColor
Posts: 36
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


House of Westenra wrote:

Avital  wrote:
Wish I would have seen this 5 min ago! just bought RCMA, oh well! smile At least I'll know how to doctor it up for dry skin til my next big purchase. Thanks!

What is a good way to doctor these up for dry skin?

House of Westenra wrote:

What is a good way to doctor these up for dry skin?

Lauren Reynolds wrote this a few posts above yours:

"I don't know about OCC, I've never tried it, but I wouldnt buy RCMA specifically for dry skin, using it without diluting it's better for oily skin. If you're going to use it with dry skin you have to prepare skin quite carefully and I would mix in moisturiser or RCMA thinner too because RCMA is quite dry for a cream. Its a great flexible product but it certainly won't be better than CS for dryness. Unless I need heavier coverage, I like Makeup Forever Face & Body for dry and/or mature skin (waterbased liquid)"

Jun 05 13 02:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
LoveColor
Posts: 36
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


Lauren Reynolds MUA wrote:

It looks lovely in real life and on camera. Coverage is sheer to medium, works fine for those without major skin issues. Young beautiful skin (ie most models!) doesn't necessarily need heavy coverage for photography. The beauty of this foundation is in its dewy glow so I dont necessarily powder it unless the glow is too much, but its worked with Ben Nye, Maqpro and Illamasqua powders for me. Also, by powdering it you take away another of its advantages, which is that it dries to a non-transfer finish but can still be layered up.

edit: If you're curious, all these were done with MUFE Face & Body and there was very little retouching to the face in all of them (I saw the originals):


https://m.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbi … =591897634

https://m.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbi … =591897634

https://m.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbi … =591897634

Beautiful! I mostly need a foundation for mature skin (mother of the bride), so I'm not sure that would work for me. I would rather have to thin it then keep layering. I have heard Joe Blasco of Face Atelier is what I'm looking for, but I know nothing about either. Anyone else have experience with those?

Jun 05 13 02:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Meghan Victoria MUA
Posts: 9
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


I can not stop raving about the Kehoe and the Shinto palette from RCMA.
Its smooth, blendable, insane pigment, can be sheered down and you use the TINIEST bit to get  full coverage look. Matches anyones skin.  I am forever in love!!
Jun 05 13 06:57 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Makeup Artist
Mary
Posts: 7,148
Coronado, California, US


MVR Makeup wrote:
I can not stop raving about the Kehoe and the Shinto palette from RCMA.
Its smooth, blendable, insane pigment, can be sheered down and you use the TINIEST bit to get  full coverage look. Matches anyones skin.  I am forever in love!!

LOVE IT!  I have always been a fan.

Mary

www.CameraReadyCosmetics.com

Jun 05 13 11:02 pm  Link  Quote 
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