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1234last
Photographer
666 Studio
Posts: 135
Burlington, Ontario, Canada


Probably been asked a million times ,so heres 1 million and 1.

I was approached by a model , female 17 to shoot her. nothing in appropriate. Headshots , portraits. What the right thing to do here or the legal thing. I'm in Canada.

What can they be photographed wearing and when does it just become plain wrong?

Any experience with this or how it should be handled or just stay away?

Thanks
Jul 31 08 12:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
danreedphoto
Posts: 258
Carver, Minnesota, US


If there's "nothing inappropriate" then I fail to see your concern.  Just have the model's parent or guardian on-site and you will be fine.
Jul 31 08 12:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Madcrow Photographics
Posts: 7,802
Boston, Massachusetts, US


Reed Photographic wrote:
If there's "nothing inappropriate" then I fail to see your concern.  Just have the model's parent or guardian on-site and you will be fine.

Right answer. Next, please.

Jul 31 08 12:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Awesome Headshots
Posts: 2,364
San Ramon, California, US


Mike McMillan wrote:
Probably been asked a million times ,so heres 1 million and 1.

I was approached by a model , female 17 to shoot her. nothing in appropriate. Headshots , portraits. What the right thing to do here or the legal thing. I'm in Canada.

What can they be photographed wearing and when does it just become plain wrong?

Any experience with this or how it should be handled or just stay away?

Thanks

What she’s asking is not illicit, just have her bring a parent/guardian who’ll sign the release and be at the shoot. big_smile

Jul 31 08 12:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B Browder Photo
Posts: 14,635
Charleston, South Carolina, US


I've always looked it this way if they are Innocent head shots and portraits it is not against the law to photograph people.  I have shot standard Innocent photos with 17 and under 17 year olds without any red tape etc... and mountains didn't crumble and oceans didn't boil over.  Its simple clothed and inocent its not a problem the way I see it.  You know what the limits are photographing underage people.
Jul 31 08 12:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
alysia
Posts: 1,039
Houston, Texas, US


Have model AND parents sign a release. Then they can't touch you smile
I would know, I'm 17 tongue
Jul 31 08 12:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Karl Blessing
Posts: 30,853
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


Mike McMillan wrote:
Probably been asked a million times

Yep... a search or even browsing for a few pages would make that painfully obvious. tongue And the best part is, the question by the op involved is usually no more unique than the last.

I guess the best thing to do is erase the "OMG 17 year old, I'm going to jail..." thought from your brain and shoot them like any other model. (just keep in mind til he or she is 18, only their parents can actually enter into a legally binding contract such as a release).

Jul 31 08 12:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Chris Macan
Posts: 12,791
HAVERTOWN, Pennsylvania, US


Why the constant "release release release" refrain.

If she is hiring the photographer to shoot pictures of her
he will not be selling the images.....
So a model release is not needed or even appropriate.

If it is a trade shoot where he hopes to later sell the images or use them for advertising...
Then maybe a model release makes sense.


That said.......
Shoot the girl.
Nothing you've said indicates any level of concern.
With or without the parents present.
It just seems like a standard portrait session.


But do check into how copyright works in your country,
If she is hiring you you may need paperwork  to maintain full copyright. (in the U.S. it usually automatically goes to the photographer.... in Canada it may go to whom ever commissioned (payed for) the shoot.) I don't know Canadian copyright rules so as a said above..... you may want to check.
Jul 31 08 12:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marc Benjamin
Posts: 544
Fairfield, California, US


Chris Macan wrote:
Why the constant "release release release" refrain.

If she is hiring the photographer to shoot pictures of her
he will not be selling the images.....
So a model release is not needed or even appropriate.

This is wrong, even though a customer is hiring you, having a standard release is good business practice.

BTW, high school seniors book and pay us all the time and their parents must sign the release even if it's just the yearbook picture. Same thing with corporate and business head shots. If your in business as a photographer you need to obtain (to a minimum) a general release.

Jul 31 08 12:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,895
Buena Park, California, US


you do NOT need a release.

Have her bring money. Then you take pictures, take money, give receipt, give photos.
Jul 31 08 12:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Chris Macan
Posts: 12,791
HAVERTOWN, Pennsylvania, US


Marc Benjamin wrote:

This is wrong, even though a customer is hiring you, having a standard release is good business practice.

BTW, high school seniors book and pay us all the time and their parents must sign the release even if it's just the yearbook picture. Same thing with corporate and business head shots. If your in business as a photographer you need to obtain (to a minimum) a general release.

Why on earth would I sign a model release for a photographer I am hiring to take images of me or for me? In fact for certain commercial work I might make him/her sign a non disclosure contract.

I might sign a business contract stating the scope of work to be done, the time frame in which it is due and and agreement of cost...... But there is no way I would ever release my image for the photographers use or sale....
Which is what a model release does....  and that is all it does.

So if that is how your business works...... it seems unlikely that I will ever hire you.

Jul 31 08 12:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Bretony
Posts: 580
New York, New York, US


wish i was 17 :cry2:
Jul 31 08 12:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,895
Buena Park, California, US


Marc Benjamin wrote:

This is wrong, even though a customer is hiring you, having a standard release is good business practice.

Only if you wish to use them.  If you have no need/desire to use them, then you don't need a release.

Jul 31 08 01:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Elliot
Posts: 600
Honolulu, Hawaii, US


AlysiaPaige wrote:
Have model AND parents sign a release. Then they can't touch you smile
I would know, I'm 17 tongue

Isn't a 17 yr old (in the USA) unable to enter into a contract? Just wondering if even getting the minor's signature is needed or useful?

Jul 31 08 01:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Karl Blessing
Posts: 30,853
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


Chris Macan wrote:
Why on earth would I sign a model release for a photographer I am hiring to take images of me or for me? In fact for certain commercial work I might make him/her sign a non disclosure contract.

I might sign a business contract stating the scope of work to be done, the time frame in which it is due and and agreement of cost...... But there is no way I would ever release my image for the photographers use or sale....
Which is what a model release does....  and that is all it does.

So if that is how your business works...... it seems unlikely that I will ever hire you.

Well... quite simple... it's not about you.

I think its better to mention the caveat of having a release than not at all, because we don't know if the OP might decide later down the road that he wants to put something up on istock and stuff like that. So mentioning it now helps keep that in mind in case that issue comes up later down the road. And not everyone realizes that a minor cannot enter into a legally binding contract (so not just releases...), so its a good thing to know from a practical business standpoint.

So from there the OP can pretty much be like "well... I'm not going to be doing this, so I won't need it, but good to know."

Jul 31 08 01:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Madcrow Photographics
Posts: 7,802
Boston, Massachusetts, US


Elliot wrote:

Isn't a 17 yr old (in the USA) unable to enter into a contract? Just wondering if even getting the minor's signature is needed or useful?

Needed, no. Useful, yes. It gives the model a sense of responsibility for whats going on and makes them feel more involved. When dealing with people (especially teenagers) even token gestures that make them feel connected to and responsible for whats going on can improve results.

Jul 31 08 01:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BTHPhoto
Posts: 6,771
Fairbanks, Alaska, US


Senior portrait shooters from all over North America are locked up in a special maximum security prison specially designed for people who pointed their cameras at 17 year olds.
Jul 31 08 01:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Karl Blessing
Posts: 30,853
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


Tim Hammond wrote:
Senior portrait shooters from all over North America are locked up in a special maximum security prison specially designed for people who pointed their cameras at 17 year olds.

I thought their eyes exploded the moment the shutter clicked, thus no reason for a prison?

Jul 31 08 01:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
alysia
Posts: 1,039
Houston, Texas, US


Elliot wrote:

Isn't a 17 yr old (in the USA) unable to enter into a contract? Just wondering if even getting the minor's signature is needed or useful?

I've always had to sign, I don't know if it is needed though.

Jul 31 08 01:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Madcrow Photographics
Posts: 7,802
Boston, Massachusetts, US


Tim Hammond wrote:
Senior portrait shooters from all over North America are locked up in a special maximum security prison specially designed for people who pointed their cameras at 17 year olds.

Actually, the fact that they're taking pictures of 17 year olds is fine. What's getting them thrown in jail is the fact that the pictures are so lousy.

Jul 31 08 01:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ward
Posts: 6,123
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Agencies models don't sign releases for tests or creatives.

I've shot models from agencies who are 16 years or under without any release, and yes, most times a parent or guardian in on-set. In addition, there is always a makeup/hair stylist and usually wardrobe stylist on-set.

That being said, as noted above, as long as what you are shooting is within the bounds of good taste, you're safe.
Jul 31 08 01:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
TrackBelle
Posts: 4,485
Chicago, Illinois, US


Madcrow Photographics wrote:

Needed, no. Useful, yes. It gives the model a sense of responsibility for whats going on and makes them feel more involved. When dealing with people (especially teenagers) even token gestures that make them feel connected to and responsible for whats going on can improve results.

Exactly. I am 17, and both myself and my mother sign all contracts/releases.

Jul 31 08 01:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alma_
Posts: 15
Houston, Texas, US


aw man im 16!
lol
but yeah just do all the paper work!
smile
Jul 31 08 01:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
666 Studio
Posts: 135
Burlington, Ontario, Canada


Thanks for all the responses, much appreciated. I will be shooting her tonight.

I'm handling it like this.

No release
No parents or guardian. ( she said she didnt want then or as she put it" what do I need my parents for"

Completely public place
Headshots and portraits only
Jeans and a normal top.

Shes O.K with it and I am to. There will be no weird stuff, just some nice pics, like grad pics.
Jul 31 08 02:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Madcrow Photographics
Posts: 7,802
Boston, Massachusetts, US


I don't know about Canada, but here in the US, shooting a UNemancipated minor (a,k,a, 99.9% of 17 year olds) without a parent or guardian around, even in public, is a HUGE no no...

EDIT: Fixed a rather large typo...
Jul 31 08 02:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David Scott
Posts: 5,592
Marion, Iowa, US


Madcrow Photographics wrote:
I don't know about Canada, but here in the US, shooting a emancipated minor (a,k,a, 99.9% of 17 year olds) without a parent or guardian around, even in public, is a HUGE no no...

You're kidding right? lol

Jul 31 08 03:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kenzphotos
Posts: 1,868
Pattaya, Central, Thailand


Mike McMillan wrote:
Probably been asked a million times ,so heres 1 million and 1.

I was approached by a model , female 17 to shoot her. nothing in appropriate. Headshots , portraits. What the right thing to do here or the legal thing. I'm in Canada.

What can they be photographed wearing and when does it just become plain wrong?

Any experience with this or how it should be handled or just stay away?

Thanks

Personally,

I would wait until she is 18 and a legal adult (at least that is the age in the States) before shooting with her.

Side note:  I realize many models begin their careers at an early age, however; I would like to see this site be for people over the age of 18 ONLY.  I feel that way for the simple reason that there is a lot of nudity on ModelMayhem.  Nothing against nudity and nothing against underage girls - but, come on, we all know the two don't mix!

Jul 31 08 03:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
XENA KAI
Posts: 841
Los Angeles, California, US


Well im 16 years old. (:
These people before me already answered your question. Best of luck to you!
Jul 31 08 03:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David Scott
Posts: 5,592
Marion, Iowa, US


Kenzphotos wrote:
Side note:  I realize many models begin their careers at an early age, however; I would like to see this site be for people over the age of 18 ONLY.  I feel that way for the simple reason that there is a lot of nudity on ModelMayhem.  Nothing against nudity and nothing against underage girls - but, come on, we all know the two don't mix!

Maybe that's why underage nudity isn't allowed on here? (at least as far as I know)

Jul 31 08 03:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Emeritus
Posts: 21,947
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


I agree that if you don't intend to sell the pictures to third parties or publish them, no release is necessary.  However, one of the posts above was correct:  in Canada, if you don't have a clear written statement to the contrary, you may find that the model owns the copyright on the pictures.  So unless you just plan to take the shots and give them to her, and never use them yourself for anything, it would be wise to have someone sign an assignment of copyright to you.
Jul 31 08 03:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
CGI Images
Posts: 4,989
Wichita, Kansas, US


Madcrow Photographics wrote:
I don't know about Canada, but here in the US, shooting a emancipated minor (a,k,a, 99.9% of 17 year olds) without a parent or guardian around, even in public, is a HUGE no no...

Whaaaat?? You've got to be kidding.

Jul 31 08 03:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
CGI Images
Posts: 4,989
Wichita, Kansas, US


David Scott wrote:

You're kidding right? lol

Beat me too it,

I see these threads and it seems the OP's question is already well covered and obvious.  Then I see humanity and stupidity rearing its head and I just cant refrain...

Jul 31 08 03:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SOS_photography
Posts: 40
Wiesbaden, Hassia, Germany


Mike McMillan wrote:
Probably been asked a million times ,so heres 1 million and 1.

I was approached by a model , female 17 to shoot her. nothing in appropriate. Headshots , portraits. What the right thing to do here or the legal thing. I'm in Canada.

What can they be photographed wearing and when does it just become plain wrong?

Any experience with this or how it should be handled or just stay away?

Thanks

I've heard of a photographer who met a 17 yr old at a public place, where she later accused him of inappropriate touching. (Assault 2nd Degree and  sexual assault 4th degree) she accused him b/c he told her she wouldn't be used for an assignment. He was fined $3000. spent 60 days in the county and all she had was her word against his? Watch out.... never meet a minor without a parent present.

Jul 31 08 03:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Emeritus
Posts: 21,947
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Kenzphotos wrote:
Personally,

I would wait until she is 18 and a legal adult (at least that is the age in the States) before shooting with her.

1.  Why?  What is he doing that requires that the model be a legal adult?

2.  Are you aware that in some states in the US and in some provinces in Canada, the age when someone becomes a legal adult is higher than 18?

Jul 31 08 03:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lake Morton Studio
Posts: 50
Tampa, Florida, US


There's somewhat of a bottom line here that's more important than the question of what's inappropriate (note that the original questioner misspelled it) and that it is simply against the law to shoot them naked. As much as we might like to at times, wait until the next birthday.
Jul 31 08 03:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
CGI Images
Posts: 4,989
Wichita, Kansas, US


Kenzphotos wrote:
Personally,

I would wait until she is 18 and a legal adult (at least that is the age in the States) before shooting with her.

Side note:  I realize many models begin their careers at an early age, however; I would like to see this site be for people over the age of 18 ONLY.  I feel that way for the simple reason that there is a lot of nudity on ModelMayhem.  Nothing against nudity and nothing against underage girls - but, come on, we all know the two don't mix!

Send me all of your senior portrait business then please, there's decent money to be made in that market.

And really "underage and nudity dont mix", I'm sure you mean "innaproprate" underage nudity correct?

Jul 31 08 03:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Emeritus
Posts: 21,947
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


SOS_photography wrote:
I've heard of a photographer who met a 17 yr old at a public place, where she later accused him of inappropriate touching. (Assault 2nd Degree and  sexual assault 4th degree) she accused him b/c he told her she wouldn't be used for an assignment. He was fined $3000. spent 60 days in the county and all she had was her word against his? Watch out.... never meet a minor without a parent present.

1.  "I've heard of" sounds pretty authoritative to me.

2.  Is there any reason to believe the outcome would be legally different if the person were 18?

Jul 31 08 03:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Madcrow Photographics
Posts: 7,802
Boston, Massachusetts, US


David Scott wrote:

You're kidding right? lol

For situations such as the OP is describing, I'm not kidding at all. As a lone hobbyist, working one on one without a crew, you'd have to be a fool to NOT want the extra level of protection from having a parent or gaurdian around. It's one thing to shoot a minor without a parent around in the context of a large scale commercial shoot with a MUA, a stylist, a hair person and a couple of assistants around. THAT happens all the time. The "rules" for a lone hobbyist (or any other lone shooter) are quite different from the rules for a major production.

Jul 31 08 03:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Emeritus
Posts: 21,947
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Lake Morton Studio wrote:
There's somewhat of a bottom line here that's more important than the question of what's inappropriate (note that the original questioner misspelled it) and that it is simply against the law to shoot them naked. As much as we might like to at times, wait until the next birthday.

Oh for God's sake.

The photographer is not doing anything remotely like shooting the model naked.  And even if he were, it is NOT TRUE that it's illegal.  Once again somebody makes up a law and acts as though it were real.

Jul 31 08 03:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
CGI Images
Posts: 4,989
Wichita, Kansas, US


TXPhotog wrote:

1.  "I've heard of" sounds pretty authoritative to me.

2.  Is there any reason to believe the outcome would be legally different if the person were 18?

2nd this motion, also what prevents a 20yr old, a 30yr old or a 50yr old from the same crap.  CYA and being alone with a female is a different discussion, I dont feel age is relevant really.  From a business sense perspective I wouldnt shoot alone with a 24yr old at 2am that I didnt know really well.

Jul 31 08 03:16 pm  Link  Quote 
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