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first4567
Photographer
Through Elizabeths Eyes
Posts: 4,916
Yelm, Washington, US


Kaos Eight wrote:
This of course may be true but I wasn't talking about her specifically I was talking about models on this site and omp in general!  I would say that generally speaking 80 percent or more of the models here don't deserve to DEMAND payment up front.  Most of them should be happy with QUALITY REAL work.  Just because someone pays your overblown rates doesn't a professional shoot/good situation make.  Additionally if the pay is PROFIT SHARE of a nationally published book not only is it more generous but its just as quality.  I had one such unprofessional/mega-ego models today suggest profit share was "TFP".  No TFP is just that time for print, there is no money at all.  Additionally profit share in the case of: "well I am going to try to sell the photos and if I make anything i will split it with you" is much different than an iron clad contract relating to profit sharing on a nationally published book series that also includes a bonus structure.

This thread isn't really the appropriate place for your rant against "models" who you don't feel deserve payment.

Please go make your own thread, or even better, do a search for the numerous times this same rant has been made by other "photographers".

Jan 07 12 01:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
New Kidd Imagery
Posts: 1,909
South Salt Lake, Utah, US


Shandra Stark wrote:
With so many people up in arms about the economy and its relation to art/hobbies, I thought now would be a great time to share ideas about budgeting, planning...etc.

I will share ideas about the most frequent thing most people complain about on this site.  Feel free to  add clever solutions to other problems.  I have five solutions to one problem.  What problems can you help clear up for people, regarding budgets?:

P: Oh my gosh, your rates are too high.  I can't afford them.  We'll never work together!!!  *cry*  *pout* *bitch*

S:

I don't know why someone would even say that... I see the rates and skip the profile automatically if I cannot afford them.. why bitch and complain?
Choose a model that fits your budget.

Shandra Stark wrote:
1- Send an offer anyway. 

If all you have to offer is a sandwich and $50, tell the model/photographer/whatever that exact thing.  You never know!  I am more insulted when someone throws a pity party, and says "You'll never work with little old me.", than I am if someone says "Hey, listen, money is really tight, but I really respect your work and was wondering if you'd accept such and such."

It's true "you just never know".. but my experience has been that most models don't care if you cannot afford it... they have their rates and people work with them at their rates...
Skip the model altogether, at least that way you don't look like a douche bag.

Shandra Stark wrote:
2- Get someone to split the cost.

Just because a model doesn't say "I'll work with more than one person at once" on his or her profile, does not mean that person isn't willing to make exceptions.  I'd be more than happy to shoot with one or two extra photographers, for my same rate.  Split it and save yourself money.  Some models may not be cool with that, but you'll never know if you don't ask.

You will have to speak for yourself on that one... most models I have contacted don't split rates... they charge per photographer..

It really is just easier to move to the next model if you cannot afford the rates posted.

Shandra Stark wrote:
3- Host a workshop

Whatever this means for you, do it.  If you don't know how, ask the model; you'd be surprised how many of us know how to pull an event together. 

Don't have anything to teach?  GET CREATIVE!  Take photographers on a hiking trip, with model en-tow.  Take them boating, take them around your land, have a crazy shooting party at your studio.  Get people together to give you money and shoot the model, and pay the model his or her day rate from those earnings.  Negotiate how much time said model will shoot with you exclusively.

This is a good idea except some times the events are more expensive than shooting the model yourself.

Shandra Stark wrote:
4- Barter

What do you have that this model may want? 

Examples:

clothes
food
transit passes
room and board (have hotel points?  send a model instead of yourself)
books
gift cards
furniture
electronics
web site
concert/movie/theatre tickets

...etc

Own a bowling alley?  A hair salon?  Pastry shop?  Have your own nightclub or restaurant?

Do you teach skydiving lessons?  Guitar?  Salsa dancing?

Use what you've got.

How 'bout cash?
There is a reason why I pay.. I got nothing of value to trade.

Shandra Stark wrote:
5- Plan ahead

I never contact a photographer spur of the moment, if I know that they are paid only.  I've always asked WAY before I ever expected to be in their area, or even if I had NO PLANS of being in their area ever.  That way I know how much I'd need to save, should the opportunity present itself, or should I decide to take charge and go now.

Start a shooting fund, for any necessary photography-related stuff. 

Start saving the way that works best  for you, even if you have NO model/mua/project in mind. 


Maybe for you this means $10 week.  Maybe it means never spending your five dollar bills.  Maybe it means saving all your tips from your restaurant gig.

Make it happen.  Some of you are getting in your own way.

Best advice in this whole thread smile

Jan 07 12 01:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Emilio Franso
Posts: 45
Lincoln, Nebraska, US


Is it just me, or does the original post contain a lot of information that applies to life as WELL as modeling?

= )
Feb 09 12 03:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
OneshotPhotoman
Posts: 5
Fullerton, California, US


Shandra Stark wrote:

With so many people up in arms about the economy and its relation to art/hobbies, I thought now would be a great time to share ideas about budgeting, planning...etc.

I will share ideas about the most frequent thing most people complain about on this site.  Feel free to  add clever solutions to other problems.  I have five solutions to one problem.  What problems can you help clear up for people, regarding budgets?:

P: Oh my gosh, your rates are too high.  I can't afford them.  We'll never work together!!!  *cry*  *pout* *bitch*

S:

1- Send an offer anyway. 

If all you have to offer is a sandwich and $50, tell the model/photographer/whatever that exact thing.  You never know!  I am more insulted when someone throws a pity party, and says "You'll never work with little old me.", than I am if someone says "Hey, listen, money is really tight, but I really respect your work and was wondering if you'd accept such and such."

2- Get someone to split the cost.

Just because a model doesn't say "I'll work with more than one person at once" on his or her profile, does not mean that person isn't willing to make exceptions.  I'd be more than happy to shoot with one or two extra photographers, for my same rate.  Split it and save yourself money.  Some models may not be cool with that, but you'll never know if you don't ask.

a- I don't have any friends!  How can I get someone to split the cost, omgz!   
           

*Get on model mayhem and start networking!  It's what you're here to do! "Hey, Jerry, I've admired your work for a while.  I see that Susie Nudie Pants is  visiting soon, and was wondering if you'd want to shoot her with me.  Awesomesauce studios is only $30 an hour, and we could go out for drinks after to talk about the shoot.

*Put up an event thread.  Have a get together at a studio or restaurant, and get to know your fellow photographers.  Talk, shoot landscapes, hang out.  Start a club...whatever you need to do.  Then when Susie Nudie Pants is coming your way, you have a pool of people to choose from.  If Susie already lives near you, or has no plans for travel- ask!!  "Hi, blah blah day of shooting, blah blah, split cost...blah blah what is your rate.  Sincerely, Jerry"

*Join meet-up.com

3- Host a workshop

Whatever this means for you, do it.  If you don't know how, ask the model; you'd be surprised how many of us know how to pull an event together. 

Don't have anything to teach?  GET CREATIVE!  Take photographers on a hiking trip, with model en-tow.  Take them boating, take them around your land, have a crazy shooting party at your studio.  Get people together to give you money and shoot the model, and pay the model his or her day rate from those earnings.  Negotiate how much time said model will shoot with you exclusively.

4- Barter

What do you have that this model may want? 

Examples:

clothes
food
transit passes
room and board (have hotel points?  send a model instead of yourself)
books
gift cards
furniture
electronics
web site
concert/movie/theatre tickets

...etc

Own a bowling alley?  A hair salon?  Pastry shop?  Have your own nightclub or restaurant?

Do you teach skydiving lessons?  Guitar?  Salsa dancing?

Use what you've got.

5- Plan ahead

I never contact a photographer spur of the moment, if I know that they are paid only.  I've always asked WAY before I ever expected to be in their area, or even if I had NO PLANS of being in their area ever.  That way I know how much I'd need to save, should the opportunity present itself, or should I decide to take charge and go now.

Start a shooting fund, for any necessary photography-related stuff. 

Start saving the way that works best  for you, even if you have NO model/mua/project in mind. 


Maybe for you this means $10 week.  Maybe it means never spending your five dollar bills.  Maybe it means saving all your tips from your restaurant gig.

Make it happen.  Some of you are getting in your own way.

Thanks for this Shandra.  This is a good way to help those who want to be treated like a professional step up and be taken seriously.  It also strengthens our industry.

Cheers!

Sep 29 12 11:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,609
Los Angeles, California, US


OneshotPhotoman wrote:

Thanks for this Shandra.  This is a good way to help those who want to be treated like a professional step up and be taken seriously.  It also strengthens our industry.

Cheers!

Cheers!

Nov 14 12 08:50 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,609
Los Angeles, California, US


Emilio Franso wrote:
Is it just me, or does the original post contain a lot of information that applies to life as WELL as modeling?

= )

smile

Nov 14 12 08:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Skydancer Photos
Posts: 21,905
Santa Cruz, California, US


hienvy
Nov 14 12 08:57 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,609
Los Angeles, California, US


Skydancer Photos wrote:
hienvy

!!

hienvy

Nov 14 12 09:04 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Anamorphosia
Posts: 2
Montreal, Quebec, Canada


Interesting...

Great post !

Fun to read in a saturday morning,you whrite very weel .
Nov 17 12 10:24 am  Link  Quote 
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35,267
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Old thread is old!
Nov 18 12 04:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Hair Stylist
Platform Artist
Posts: 157
Chicago, Illinois, US


smart
Jan 02 13 01:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
NlEXV
Posts: 4
Manila, National Capital Region, Philippines


great****
Jan 17 13 04:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Toto Photo
Posts: 2,510
Belmont, California, US


Shandra Stark wrote:

I've been meaning to for years.

I have a hard time with transitions.  Staying on topic.  General flow.

That's an editor's job.

Jan 17 13 04:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
NYMPH
Posts: 615
Oakland, California, US


Or talk about concepts. If you're in the 'maybe pile' or the 'yeah, but I need some compensation list' then work on doing something super fun, super killer, super been wanting it in my port.

And yes, thread resurrection, cuz it's an awesome thread.
Jan 20 13 03:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
CushenberryPhotography
Posts: 11
Houston, Texas, US


Thanks for sharing this thread! It is still relevant!
I will post!

Dj smile
Feb 08 13 07:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DaeNaturals
Posts: 135
Sacramento, California, US


This applies to anyone needing some extra cash in general:

Most people have a lot of extra money just sitting around their house or apartment.
Just look around, you probably have a lot of stuff you never use or need. Sell the crap that makes better use as cash than taking up space in your closet spaces.
Have a yard sale, go to a swap meet, utilize Craigslist. It's adds up.

And what about intangibles?
Can you really not live without extra cable TV? Do you really need the extra phone data plan? Do you really need that Gym membership to excercise? How many other memberships do you pay for that would really change your life if you cut them today?
(Sorry, that includes you, MM. Unless of course, that is part of your business)

If any of you even pays for a storage space, you have even more extra money than you think. You are paying monthly rent to keep stuff you probably should sell.
If it's in storage, chances are, you really don't need it. You are probably paying more each year in storage costs than the stuff is worth. In a sense, you are paying multiple times over for the items.

And don't even get me started on credit card uses.

As a photographer, I have seen models that I have wanted to work with but did not have the extra cash to afford their rates.
SO, I had a couple yard sales and got rid of a lot of "junk" around the house. Sold some extra old equipment on Craigslist. Brought a lunch to work, instead of eating out, for a few weeks.
This put an extra few hundred bucks in my pocket in less than a month.
I then negotiated a fair rate with a model and an MUA I have wanted for a shoot.

Now if only I could figure out how to do that all the time for better health insurance...
Aug 27 13 08:56 am  Link  Quote 
Model
V for Victory Modeling
Posts: 436
Roseville, California, US


I am doing minimal TF and give rates, but I am often willing to negotiate. Say a shoot is 3 hours long, I'll charge maybe $40 instead of $60. I recently worked with someone who paid my hourly rate for 2 hours instead of the 3 1/2, but it was no big deal as he also said he'd provide a few images. Win-win situation here....he needed a model on short notice and we both got a deal. The other thing I am open to is doing TF if a MUA is provided. I'm not that great at my own makeup and if a MUA can help provide great results and images, I will do TF.
Aug 27 13 04:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
V for Victory Modeling
Posts: 436
Roseville, California, US


DaeNaturals wrote:
This applies to anyone needing some extra cash in general:

Most people have a lot of extra money just sitting around their house or apartment.
Just look around, you probably have a lot of stuff you never use or need. Sell the crap that makes better use as cash than taking up space in your closet spaces.
Have a yard sale, go to a swap meet, utilize Craigslist. It's adds up.

And what about intangibles?
Can you really not live without extra cable TV? Do you really need the extra phone data plan? Do you really need that Gym membership to excercise? How many other memberships do you pay for that would really change your life if you cut them today?
(Sorry, that includes you, MM. Unless of course, that is part of your business)

If any of you even pays for a storage space, you have even more extra money than you think. You are paying monthly rent to keep stuff you probably should sell.
If it's in storage, chances are, you really don't need it. You are probably paying more each year in storage costs than the stuff is worth. In a sense, you are paying multiple times over for the items.

And don't even get me started on credit card uses.

As a photographer, I have seen models that I have wanted to work with but did not have the extra cash to afford their rates.
SO, I had a couple yard sales and got rid of a lot of "junk" around the house. Sold some extra old equipment on Craigslist. Brought a lunch to work, instead of eating out, for a few weeks.
This put an extra few hundred bucks in my pocket in less than a month.
I then negotiated a fair rate with a model and an MUA I have wanted for a shoot.

Now if only I could figure out how to do that all the time for better health insurance...

+1000! I've been having to do all of that lately just to pay rent and bills! When I want or need something, I try and figure out what I can sell. All those extra clothes...even collectibles collecting dust. I know what it's like to collect, but really, there's no use for most things that you will not use that sit around collecting dust.

Aug 27 13 04:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JREins Photo
Posts: 1
Los Angeles, California, US


This is a lot of good ideas!
Jul 16 14 01:27 am  Link  Quote 
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